Sam Hammond, a Senior Economist focusing on AI policy, and Jen Pahlka, a prominent advocate for improving government through technology, explore the contentious landscape of state capacity. They discuss the ideological divides between left and right and ponder whether AI might render these debates obsolete. The conversation delves into historical lessons from the Progressive Era, bipartisan avenues for reform, and the challenges posed by outdated governance systems, all while emphasizing the critical need for effective technology integration in government.