What Can Replace the Emotional Support Skinny Jeans?

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We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your July Indulgence Gospel!

And… it’s our 200th episode!

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One Good Thing

Now that it’s summer, ice cream is a daily state of being here and I’ve been using my East Fork ice cream bowls constantly (they are also the perfect size for cherries and for many of your favorite snacks). If you are also an East Fork disciple, heads up that their annual Seconds Sale starts today! This is where they sell pots that are slightly imperfect but still 100 percent functional and food safe for 30-40% off. And yes, there are a lot of cute ice cream bowls.

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Episode 200 Transcript

Corinne

200! Can you believe it?

Virginia

I can and I cannot. It’s one of those things where I feel like we’ve always been making the podcast, but also 200 feels like so many.

Corinne

I went back through, to look at some old episodes. And I was like, you know, I kind of remember all of them. I was like, surely there are some I have forgotten. But yeah, kind of not.

Virginia

When I was looking back at the old episodes, it was like visiting old friends. I was like, I know you guys. We’re cool.

Corinne

If you write into us with a question and we answer it, it really sticks with us!

Virginia

We continue to think about you. And would like updates, honestly. We don’t always get them, so putting that out there. We’d like to know.

Corinne

To celebrate, we have a special two part episode for you. We’re picking favorite moments from the archives to revisit, to see if our feelings and opinions have changed.

Virginia

Alright, I decided to look back at our many excellent guest conversations and pull out some favorites. First up, I thought I’d look back at our work ultra-processed foods since it is such an annoyingly evergreen topic.

We did a great pair of episodes with Laura Thomas, PhD, who writes “Can I Have Another Snack?” which ran in July 2023.

Here is a little excerpt from the first conversation.

Virginia

It feels like it’s important to say very clearly that processed is not synonymous with has no nutrition, and that actually processing foods is a good thing to do in order to eat, right?

Laura

Yeah, well, all forms of cooking are a process, right?

So unless you like want to go down some raw vegan path, you can’t really avoid processing your food to some extent.

Now, advocates of NOVA, I think, would say that’s a bit of a red herring, because what we’re actually talking about is this additional level of processing, this ultra processing sort of phenomenon.

But even within that category, I think there are merits to processing–even Ultra processing–our foods. One of the things that happens when we process food is we extend the shelf life of it, and that means that we are wasting less food overall, which I think we would all agree is probably a helpful thing.

But industrial food processing, it reduces foodborne pathogens. It reduces microbes that would spoil food and make things like oils turn rancid faster. It also significantly cuts down on the time and labor that it requires to cook a meal. And I think that’s for me as a parent, and I know for you as well, like, that’s huge.

Virginia

It’s really everything, honestly. For me personally. Nothing should be everything for everybody, but limiting the amount of time I spend cooking dinner is the thing that enables me to eat dinner with my family at night.

Laura

But it’s not just like super privileged white women that have a lot of you know nutrition knowledge, right, that benefit from ultra processed foods. I’m also thinking about kids with feeding disorders that would struggle to get all the nutrition that they need without processed foods. I’m thinking about elderly or disabled people who can maintain a level of independence because they can quickly cook some pasta and throw an ultra processed jar of pasta sauce on that and have a nourishing meal. I’m thinking about pregnant people who otherwise might not be able to stomach eating because of morning sickness and nausea, which we know lasts forever, not just morning, right?

So there are so many groups of people that benefit from ultra processed foods, and they just seem to be missing entirely from the conversation around these foods.

Virginia

So often there’s this pressure of like, we have to just get poor people cooking more and get them cooking more. And it’s like, okay, but if you live in a shelter, you don’t have a kitchen. If you are crashing on a couch with family member, you know, in a house with lots of different people, and it’s not easy for you to get time in the kitchen. There’s so many different scenarios where cooking is not a practical solution, and having greater shelf stability is very important.

Laura

But it also says a lot about where we place our values, right? And who is making decisions about where we cook our values? Because it’s not everyone’s value system to spend more time cooking from scratch and buying fresh ingredients and spending more time in the kitchen.

Virginia

I picked this clip because I think Laura is summing up so many important pieces of this conversation that I just continue to see nowhere in the mainstream media discourse around ultra-processed foods. Like the fact that they are useful and convenient. And convenience is not a moral failing. I don’t know where we decided food should be inconvenient to be valuable and healthy? But it seems like that’s a thing that we believe.

Corinne

I know Maintenance Phase just did an ultra processed food episode. I listened to that.

Virginia

Oh, it’s excellent.

Corinne

And both they and you and Laura got into the way that “processed” is just such a moving target. It means so many different things.

Virginia

It means literally anything.

Corinne

And also nothing.

Virginia

Yes, when I say this is missing from the discourse, I don’t mean Maintenance Phase, who I think we’re very much in conversation with. As Mike and Aubrey kept discussing on their episode—I think Laura says some of this, too—depending whose classification system you go by, honey is ultra-processed or it’s not ultra-processed. Foods are moving categories all the time.

And as Aubrey said: Really what it comes down to is they’re categorizing foods so that the ones that “people who make less money than you buy” are bad. And I was like, yep, there it is. This is really classism and racism and all the other isms to say let’s demonize these foods that people rely on.

Which is not to say we shouldn’t improve the overall quality of food in the food system! But doing it through this policing of consumer habits just will never not make me furious.

Corinne

Really feels like this hasn’t gotten better since the episode aired two years ago?

Virginia

If anything, I think it has intensified. I think RFK and MAHA has really put this one in their crosshairs, and it’s just getting worse and worse. It’s really maddening, because we’re just not having any of the real conversations we need to have about how to improve food quality in this country or anywhere.

Corinne

What a bummer.

All right, let’s listen to this next quote, which is about jeans.

Virginia

Oh, jeans.

Virginia

So the backstory is on recent Indulgence Gospels, we have talked about how Corinne converted me to the universal standard straight leg jeans, and I do really like them. But earlier today, I had to be in photos, and we had a plan. The three of us had a plan that I was going to wear those jeans, and at the last minute, I texted Dacy. I didn’t even text Corinne because I knew she’d yell at me. I texted Dacy, and I was like, I can’t do it. I’m in my skinny jeans for the photos. And, yeah, it was like, do I look too sloppy? Are these, like, saggy in a weird way that I have no control over?

And I feel like for something like having your picture taken, like, wear the pants, you’re not going to feel like you’re only thinking about your pants. You know what I mean?

Corinne

Okay, so I wanted to revisit some of your feelings about jeans. You may recall that we used to open like every podcast episode by chatting about pants!

Virginia

We did. We haven’t done that!

Corinne

We kind of fell off pants chat, and I don’t know why.

Virginia

Bring back pants chat!

Corinne

But I do feel like since we started doing the podcast, your feelings about jeans have evolved? True or false?

Virginia

They have evolved. They definitely have. I mean, I still own a pair of emotional support skinny jeans. The same pair I mention in that episode.

Corinne

When is the last time you wore them?

Virginia

I actually have not worn them very much at all. I did wear them two weeks ago under a shirt dress because it turned out to be colder than I thought. And I was like, “Oh, it’s not a bare leg dress day.” So I put on skinny jeans under it, but I haven’t worn them for any other reason in a really long time.

And I will say: I’m wearing my Gap straight leg jeans the most, the baggier fit ones the most. So I do think I’ve evolved to embrace a more relaxed fit of jean, which does make it much easier to get jeans to fit your body.

I still think the primary finding of Jean Science was correct, that jeans are designed terribly, that fashion in general is terrible at fitting people’s bodies, but particularly when it comes to fitting pants onto fat people. They’re really bad at it. And so I think all the jeans are bad.

But I will say if you can embrace a wider leg or a more relaxed fit, you will have more options.

Corinne

Yeah, I think that’s true.

Virginia

I still cannot solve for the factor of, if you wear a more relaxed fit, they will still stretch out when you wear them, and they will be falling off you by the second day, if not later in the first day. And nobody has solved this.

Corinne

I think someone did solve it, and it’s belts.

Virginia

That is not a solution that is available to me, personally. I don’t like belts. I guess I should try belts? I don’t know about belts. Okay, that’s a whole other thing.

Corinne

This is kind of neither here nor there, but I just read this post from Em Seely-Katz who writes Esque, and I think they were actually writing about something else, raw hem jeans. But they were saying that men’s jeans, the zipper goes all the way from the bottom of the crotch up to the top. Why don’t women’s jeans do that?

Virginia

Wait, men’s jeans have a different zipper?

Corinne

Like, the zipper on women’s jeans is shorter. It doesn’t go all the way down.

Virginia

Is it because they don’t want men to pee on their pants?

Corinne

Well, I think it’s so you can open them up more to get your… whatever but, but I think women’s jeans should also have that option for access.

Virginia

I just really have to pause on how uncomfortable Corinne was saying penis right there. She was like… whatever you’ve got down there.

Corinne

I think I was going to say dick and then I was like, is that inappropriate?

Virginia

Whatever, we swear all the time. Anyway, the zipper is longer so that men can deal with their junk.

Corinne

I think women should have the option of being able to deal with their junk as well.

Virginia

Agreed, agreed. Pro longer zipper.

Corinne

Also, I feel like it would be easier to to get jeans on if they opened up more at the top.

Virginia

Now that you’ve put this very important issue on my radar, I’m ready to adopt it as a primary cause.

Corinne

Okay, thank you.

Virginia

We will have a petition for everyone to sign shortly.

You are a diehard jeans person. You always look great in jeans. You’re inspiring on the topic.

Corinne

This year I have adopted drawstring jeans, which feels like it’s barely jeans.

Virginia

But also sounds like a life hack.

Corinne

Yeah, it’s very comfortable.

Virginia

I love drawstring. In the summer, I wear a lot of drawstring. I don’t wear a lot of drawstring in the winter.

Corinne

Drawstring would probably solve your stretching out after a couple wears problem, similar to a belt.

Virginia

It would be like a belt, but not a belt, so it wouldn’t trigger my belt concerns.

I think my other struggle with jeans—that is maybe not really even about jeans—is that since I have broken up mostly with dark skinny jeans, there is sometimes a category of outfit I am trying to achieve where I’m trying to be dressed up, but not too dressed up. And I feel like the dark skinny jean really filled that need. Does that make sense?

Like, you want to look like kind of polished because you’re going to your kid’s chorus concert or out to dinner with friends, but it’s not like all the way to a dress level? That might feel like too much. I feel like the dark skinny jean really threaded this needle.

This stems from having been in my 20s in the early 2000s and being trained in the School of the Going Out Top. The going out top and dark jeans was a uniform. And I think I’m still like, “So what replaces the dark jeans and the going out top?” And then I realized, like… anything? That’s me trying to dress like it’s 2003 and it’s not.

But that is one place I still struggle, because I don’t feel like the lighter, more relaxed denim can can do that same category?

Corinne

Hmm, what about darker, wide leg jeans? Is that not a thing?

Virginia

Maybe I just haven’t found a pair I really like that are darker. That’s a good thought.

Corinne

Or maybe with wide leg jeans, you need a slightly fancier top, I don’t know.

Virginia

I think a lot of our dependency on the skinny jean was just because we’d really learned the outfit formulas for it. And I do feel like sometimes when I gravitate back towards it, it’s because I’m feeling at sea with how to put an outfit together without them.

Corinne

This is not about jeans, but I’m really into these Old Navy shorts I have that have stripes down the side. They’re sweat shorts. And they’re so comfortable. But then sometimes when I’m going out, I am like, wait, what do I put on the top so that it doesn’t look like I’m just in sweats?

Virginia

I just came here in pajamas. Yeah, don’t you feel like that’s a struggle with shorts and tank tops in general in the summer? And I feel like more of a struggle for fat folks?

Corinne

Maybe.

Virginia

It’s harder to look like you got dressed or something, right?

Corinne

Like, how do I look like I’m not just wearing a t-shirt and jeans?

Lately, I’ve been experimenting with the answer to that being socks. Right now I’m wearing—am I about to try and show you my socks? Nope.

I’m wearing chartreuse socks, kind of like a chartreuse dress sock. I’ll send you a pic after. But I feel like that with the tank top and shorts kind of makes it look more outfit-y.

@selfiefayStay for the pitbull cameo #ootd

Virginia

You should know my 11 year old is doing the same thing this summer.

Corinne

Oh, that’s cool.

Virginia

There are a lot of brightly colored socks with regular shorts and t-shirts. Also, she has a lot of animal print socks. So you’re blessed by Gen Alpha or whatever she is.

Corinne

Amazing.

Virginia

Good job.

All right. Well, for the final clip, I went back to another favorite guest conversation. To be clear, I love all of our guest conversations. But this was one that was just like one of my favorite ever. It was with Martinus Evans, who is the author of Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run. Martinus also runs the Slow AF Run Club, which is a running community for folks to run in the bodies they have. He is so hilarious and delightful.

This episode ran in June 2023 so here’s the clip.

Martinus

So what that looks like is like letting them know that obstacles and rising up in the face of adversity is a good thing. Because for a lot of people, they think it’s a bad thing. Like, oh, I face adversity. I’m slow.

Or, here’s the thing I always get, is that I started running, and then I got a little tired, and I started walking, and I felt absolutely horrible that I had to walk. And then me come in and say, Well, what was wrong with that? Did you start running again? Yeah, I did. Well, fuck like, let’s celebrate that then? It’s that thing of letting people know that it’s okay to bumble and stumble and figure this thing out because you’re doing something with your body that you have not been A. celebrated to do, right? But B. You’re kind of stifled, like being a plus size person, like you may have even been stifled with movement, because you haven’t had the liberty to actually explore the things that your body might be able to do. You got to explore and figure all this stuff out.

So, like, that’s where providing psychological safety is letting them know that it’s okay. It’s almost like, imagine a kid who’s like, riding a bike for the first time. They ride the bike, you let it go, they lose their balance, they fall, they scrape their knee. They’re going to cry. They’re going to be like, Oh, I don’t want to ride this bike anymore. It’s horrible. I don’t want to do this. Don’t make me do this. But as a good parent or as a good coach, you’re going to like, okay, let’s cry it out. You done crying? Okay, now let’s get your ass back on that bike. The same thing is true with physical activity. All right. You did it. You got a side stitch? Okay, cool. Let’s figure this out. Oh, you got shin splints. Okay, cool, yeah, let’s figure this out. Oh, oh, you got delay, onset, muscle soreness? Great. Let’s figure this out. But guess what? Yeah, that’s going to continue to move.

That’s the approach that I take. Like we’re all going to fall off, and somewhere around us being grown start to be embedded in us, like doing something and then like failing or like not getting it right on the first time is a bad thing. I think it’s school.

Virginia

I think school is a lot of it, yeah. I’m thinking, like, when a baby’s learning to walk, they fall a million times, and people aren’t like you should stop trying to walk. You know what I mean?

Martinus

Imagine that like walking a baby trying to walk. And I said, screw you baby! Like you suck you’re not. Damn you for trying to walk.

Virginia

Yeah, you are a fat baby who can’t walk. And yet we have this narrative that then kicks in of somehow, if I have to stop to walk during my run, that’s like a moral failing. Like walking and running are morally equivalent activities, right? Like if you’re walking, some of it, if you’re running, some of that, as you said, like the pace of your running, if you are slow, that is still running. There’s no need to be attaching all these values to it.

But it does seem like the culture of running at large is so built on that paradigm, and you are really challenging an entire paradigm here.

Martinus

Yes, I am. Here’s why. If you’re not an elite athlete who’s like their life depends on winning prize money and like going to the Olympics, all of us are then paying for a participation medal to participate in a parade.

Corinne

I love this. He’s really delightful.

Virginia

He’s so good. And the reframing of running marathons as participating in a parade will just make me happy forever. It’s so correct.

I mean, obviously we stand by everything Martinus said. There’s not really a lot more to say. So I thought we could also talk a little bit about how working on the podcast has changed each of our relationship with exercise. Because I think we’ve done a lot of good fitness content over the last 200 episodes, and I personally feel like I’m in a better place with exercise than I was when I started this project.

Corinne

Hmm, that’s awesome. Well, I think I started lifting around the same time that I started doing the podcast.

Virginia

There was an early episode where you were, like, “I’m using a broomstick.”

Corinne

Oh, that’s right! I was doing Couch to Barbell!

Virginia

And look at you now, power lifter.

Corinne

I mean, one thing that is interesting about maybe starting any exercise, or maybe specifically powerlifting, is I think, in the first like year that you do it, you get better fast. Like, really consistently, almost every time you go to the gym, you’re lifting more weight. And that is so rewarding. And probably a little addictive.

Now that I have been doing it for two and a half years, I’m not getting better every time. Sometimes I can’t lift weights that I have previously lifted for various reasons. Even if I’m maxing out, sometimes not hitting my previous maxes. I think it can be hard to figure out what am I doing? I took a little bit break last summer. I went to visit family, and I decided to just not go to the gym.

Virginia

I remember, that seems good. I feel like it was good you took that break.

Corinne

Yeah, it was good. And it sucked getting back. So yeah, I’m still figuring it out.

Virginia

I guess that’s the tricky thing about any sport where there’s progress attached to it, which power lifting is still a sport organized around progress.

Corinne

I mean, there are different ways you can measure progress, too. Like how many reps, versus just straight up how much weight.

Virginia

But it’s still measuring progress. It’s still expecting there to be progress, which is both exciting, and I think progress can be very motivating. And what do you do then when you’re in a period with it where it’s not really about progress? How do you find value in that relationship? That’s a tricky question.

Corinne

Or when the progress is just much smaller.

Virginia

And can you still feel good about that?. Or do you start feeling like what’s the point?

I think for me, it’s so funny that I love this conversation with Martinus so much, because I am just never going to be a runner again. Running was such a bad relationship that I’m so glad to be done with.

I think for me, so much of finding joy and exercise is about not having progress goals of any kind. Like just having different activities I like doing for their own sake, and kind of rotating. Like, I like weight lifting. It was exciting when I went up to larger weight, heavier weights. At some point I hope to go up to heavier weights again.

But I’m not tracking it. I’m like, these still seem hard. I don’t know, it seems fine.

Then the other stuff I do, like walking the dog and gardening, are really not things you would be like, wow, I weeded two more flower beds this week. It’s not progress.

But I do feel good that I, in various flavors, work out much more consistently than I have at other points in my life. Because it’s more built into my lifestyle. And, I think talking to people like Martinus, Anna Maltby, obviously Lauren Leavell, Jessie Diaz-Herrera and all the folks who’ve come on and talked to us about different approaches to fitness have just really helped me claim it for myself in a way that I really was struggling to do. So that’s been cool.

Corinne

Yeah, that is cool. That’s inspiring.

Butter

Corinne

Well, this was fun to look back on some favorite episodes! Should we do butter?

Virginia

I just came up with my Butter while I was eating lunch. And it is what I ate for lunch. And it is Sushi Salad.

I invented this today. I had some leftover sushi, but it wasn’t quite enough to be lunch by itself. So I chopped up the spicy tuna roll, with the rice and everything, chopped it up into little chunks, and I put it over a bed of greens with some some chopped bell peppers, some red onion, and then I kind of made up a fake spicy mayonnaise Asian-ish salad dressing. I’m not saying this is culturally authentic in any way. I need to underscore that a lot. But it was such a good lunch. So Sushi Salad is my Butter.

And in general, I’ve been a big fan of leftovers plus salad as a lunch formula. A lot of leftovers lend themselves well to being a chopped ingredient in a good salad, and then it’s like a new take. If you’re someone who gets sick of leftovers, it’s a whole new experience.

Corinne

I’m also going to do a food.

Virginia

Great. We love food Butter.

Corinne

I had some friends over for dinner earlier this week, and I made this Smitten Kitchen recipe, she calls it garlic lime steak and noodle salad.

Virginia

Oh, sold.

Corinne

It’s a really good hot weather meal, because it’s rice vermicelli that you basically dunk in hot water for a few minutes and can serve cold or room temp. Then you chop up cucumbers and tomatoes and green beans, and then you make a marinade that also doubles as a dressing that has fish sauce, sugar, stuff like that, and and grill some steak and put that on top.

Virginia

Oh my gosh, I’m making this this week. I love this kind of recipe. Also, a great salad. Don’t sleep on main course salads.

Corinne

Yes, I had the leftovers as a salad yesterday. So good.Well, coming up next week, we’re going to visit another bunch of favorite moments. Including: Feelings about aging, heterosexual marriage and what happens when your partner is on a diet.

Virginia

That episode WILL be paywalled, just like all our other Indulgence Gospels, so you should become a paid subscriber so you don’t miss it!

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!