E140: Why Industrial Revolutions Stall

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May 10, 2025

Samo Burja, an analyst specializing in global power dynamics, joins the discussion to unravel the intriguing history of failed industrial revolutions in the Roman Empire and Song Dynasty China. They explore how rising labor costs led to mechanical innovations like watermills, despite reliance on slave labor. Burja critiques the common narratives of economic growth, highlighting the complex reasons behind stagnation, such as demographic shifts and demand saturation. This conversation reveals valuable insights linking ancient advancements to today's challenges.

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INSIGHT

Industrial Revolutions Are Cyclic

The Industrial Revolution was preceded by earlier complex technological and economic developments in civilizations like Rome and Song China.
Human economic progress cycles through prosperity and decline rather than continuous growth.

INSIGHT

Watermills Powered Roman Industry

Romans extensively used watermills to mechanize milling flour, blacksmithing, and marble cutting.
This technology freed labor and showed sophisticated mechanical engineering at scale.

ANECDOTE

Roman Mining at Las Medulas

The Roman gold mine Las Medulas transformed the landscape using water to strip soil.
They used water power for mining and mechanical devices, showing advanced mining technology.

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Today on Upstream, we’re sharing Erik Torenberg conversation with Samo Burja on this week’s Live Players. They discuss the potential industrial revolutions in history, particularly in the Roman Empire and Song Dynasty China, their technological advancements, economic factors, and the reasons these revolutions didn't reach full fruition.

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RECOMMENDED PODCASTS:

🎙️Live Players

Samo Burja and Erik Torenberg provide analysis of the news and case studies of Live Players, as well as key institutions and technologies that make up the global power landscape.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-players-with-samo-burja-and-erik-torenberg/id1718925188

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5fbMTkHBnom1JIBWYNVBK1?si=01ed191c74264f55

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@LivePlayerswithSamoBurja

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LINKS:

Las Medulas in Spain: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/803/

Monte Testaccio in Rome: https://www.historyskills.com/classroom/ancient-history/monte-testaccio/?srsltid=AfmBOoonzF0CVGKjzUFs46kkI9fZ-FVcBTDOMAVs8vtFcxH4iKcNx09f

Bismarck Analysis: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/

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X / TWITTER:

@samoburja

@eriktorenberg

@turpentinemedia

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HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE:

The podcast explores "failed industrial revolutions" not widely recognized in history.
Human economic progress isn't constant but cycles between prosperity and decline.
The Roman Empire had its own industrial revolution unlike our modern conception.
Water power was extensively used by Romans for milling, metalwork, and stone cutting.
Romans built complex waterwheel systems and engineering works for power generation.
Heron of Alexandria demonstrated steam power principles in experimental devices.
Roman metal production was so vast it left pollution signatures in Greenland ice cores.
Monte Testaccio in Rome indicates industrial-scale production of millions of amphoras.
Romans mass-produced standardized pottery, glassware, statues, and military equipment.
A sophisticated Roman consumer economy existed with a significant middle class.
This era remains underappreciated partly due to concerns about interrupted progress.
Hollywood misrepresents the era, omitting the "steampunk" mechanical sophistication.
Cities like Alexandria were major production centers with extensive trade networks.
Romans might have adopted steam power had they needed to mine more coal.
Song Dynasty China represents another technologically advanced society that fell.
Large-scale water shipping appears crucial for all historical industrialization.
Industrial revolutions plateau when non-technological growth fails to keep pace.
The Hellenistic era, especially Alexandria, is described as modern science's birthplace.