Ep 168: Having Race Conversations

Matthew R Kay, author of Not Light, But Fire, shares his vast wealth of knowledge on how to have productive discussions about race. As an educator and speaker, Matthew is well-versed in what to avoid and what to move toward in conversations.

Full show notes

You know you have to discuss race....but you’re not sure where to start. With everything going on in the news and centuries of history to cover, there’s quite a bit to talk about. You might feel like you’re unauthorized or just woefully unprepared. What if you say the wrong thing, or your teen asks a question you don’t know the answer to? With all the uncertainty, it can be tempting to just skip the topic of race altogether.

But if we don’t encourage kids to think critically about racism, they may grow up ignorant to prejudice in their community. They might not be able to identify microaggressions, or might not think about a certain language before they use it. Plus, with all the information floating around on social media these days, kids might just learn about race from unreliable sources when they could be having a productive conversation about it with a trusted parent!

To help us crack the code to race conversations with teens, we’re sitting down with Matthew R. Kay, author of Not Light But Fire: How to Lead Meaningful Race Conversations in the Classroom. Matthew’s one of the founding English teachers at the Science Leadership Academy in Philadelphia, as well as the founder of a Philly slam poetry league! As a teacher, he’s had countless conversations about race in his classroom–leading him to learn what works and what doesn’t.

Matthew and I are discussing how you can create a safe space for kids to open up about intense issues like race. Plus, we’re talking about how you can keep the conversation in check so it doesn’t go off the rails, even when you and your teen have some differences of opinion.

Creating a Space for Talks About Race

When it’s time to get into a tricky topic, it’s pretty easy to declare your home to be a safe space for teens to open up. But talk is cheap! If you really want to make teens feel comfortable being vulnerable, you’ve got to go beyond just your words and provide a safe space with your actions, says Matthew. 

One of the most important steps to creating a comfortable environment is making sure everyone feels listened to. In our interview, Matthew explains how teens often come to him saying they feel like adults just don’t listen! With our endlessly busy lives full of errands, work meetings and carpools, it can be hard to find the time to really listen to what teens have to say. But if we really want teens to feel comfortable sitting down with us to discuss race or other heavy topics, we’ve got to put in the work to let them know we’re really listening, says Matthew.

But what makes a good listener? Matthew and I dive into the art of listening in the episode. Although we might think we are just naturally endowed with our listening skills, there are actually concrete steps we can take to become better at receiving and digesting information. Matthew encourages parents to police their own voice, meaning making sure that in a discussion between you and your kids, you’re not the only one talking! 

In Matthew’s classroom, creating rich relationships between the students is a priority–and one of the ways he ensures that everyone feels comfortable sharing. It’s hard to be vulnerable with somebody you don’t know! That’s why he sets structures in place to make sure kids really get to know each other before they dive into complicated discussions or sensitive topics. As a parent, you might want to practice a similar strategy, he says. By building that relationship beforehand, you can create a safe space and allow teens to feel that they can tell you anything.

In the episode, Matthew and I discuss ways you can make teens feel comfortable when it is time to actually have that serious talk. It can be helpful to ensure that you and your teen are sitting or standing at the same eye level, Matthew explains. This creates an equitable balance of power between the two of you, and prevents your teen from feeling as though you’re passing judgement on them! Matthew also shares why you shouldn’t ask kids to “sit down” before diving into the discussion in the episode.

Once you feel you’ve created the comfortable space teens need, having the conversation is another tricky task entirely! But with some tips from Matthew, you can go into the conversation feeling confident.

Conducting a Race Conversation

It’s easy for things to get heated when talking about race–especially if you and your teen have differences of opinion. But if the two of you can keep the discussion more scholarly and less emotional, Matthew says the two of you can learn from one another. In his classroom, he tries to keep these kinds of talks more research and inquiry based, instead of just having kids blurt out opinions. This helps teens get into more productive and deliberate discussion instead of just throwing around baseless claims.

Matt also really encourages sequential discussion, meaning that every talk you have with your teen builds on the last. This gives teens (and parents) time in between to think critically about these nuanced topics. It allows them to fabricate sophisticated perspectives instead of coming to simple conclusions! Matthew believes that one of the biggest issues with our school system’s approach to education about race is this lack of sequentiality. We throw kids disconnected discussions about Martin Luther King or police brutality, but don’t give them the tools to make a timeline!

When starting up a talk about race, Matthew emphasizes really paying attention to the prompt you choose to spark the discussion. If you ask kids a complex question that requires them to provide examples to prove their point, they’ll be forced to look past black and white answers. Plus, if you can push them to examine the other side’s viewpoint and perspective, you might just find that they’re able to consider the layers of complexity that lay behind issues of race, says Matthew.

This is a helpful technique that helps us avoid the common tendency to shift things into an “I’m right, you’re wrong” argument, Matthew explains. Too often, parents and teens both fall into a pattern of trying to convince the other to believe in their own point, making it into a win or lose situation, when it shouldn’t be! In the episode, Matthew doles out some tips to keep you from falling into this pattern.

In the Episode…

I’m so grateful that I was able to sit down with Matthew today to get some tips on having conversations about race. It’s something so many of us are eager to do, but find ourselves struggling with just how to do it. On top of the topics discussed above, we also talk about:

• What “house talk” is and how to use it
• How you can give more meaningful compliments
• Why you shouldn’t rush through conversions about race
• How to get quiet kids to speak up
• Why we should talk about “The Jefferson Dismissal” 

If you enjoyed listening to this episode, there’s more great stuff from Matthew on notlight.com, including articles, information about his book and ways you can contact him directly. Don’t forget to subscribe and we’ll see you next week!