The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] Dating While Fat!
Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your September Extra Butter!
Today we are discussing... dating as a fat person! We'll get into navigating the apps, Corinne's rules for first dates, and why do so many cishet men post fishing pictures.
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PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
Corinne
I’m really excited about our topic for today.
Virginia
I’m so nervous about our topic for today.
Corinne
There’s nothing to be nervous about. We’re going to talk about dating. And just to be clear, both of us are single. Slide into our DMs.
Virginia
Oh yes, there’s no announcement being made here. But as two single people, one of whom has significantly more dating experience than the other—
Corinne
It’s me.
Virginia
That’s Corinne, to be clear. We felt like we should do an episode about fat dating specifically, because it really is it’s own thing. It’s its own world with things to navigate, and many anxieties and realities.
So in this episode, we have Corinne as our dating expert, because she has actually dated in… this current decade. If we wanted to go back and talk about 10th grade dating, I’ve got tips.
Corinne
I did very little dating in 10th grade, so that could actually be helpful.
Virginia
We’re not going to get into that! But yes, Corinne is the more current dater of the two of us. Corinne is going to be our expert. And we also did a call out to all of you. So we have a lot of your questions, but also your advice, which we’re going to read. And we’re all going to learn a lot, I think. Mostly me.
Corinne
I’m excited. I have a lot of strong opinions about this.
Virginia
I’m ready for your strong opinions. Okay, to kick it off, I just wanted to read this note from Jenny, which I think sums up the vortex of feelings that we have about this:
There’s so much vulnerability required to date and I think that’s what makes dating as a fat person even harder. We’re already feeling vulnerable at times just for existing in a fat body. So to be extra vulnerable requires even more courage and energy. For people who have the experience of being desirable, they too must be vulnerable, but they start from a place of security.
What are your thoughts?
Corinne
I mean, I do think that’s true. I also think that dating feels vulnerable for everyone and I think whether or not you’re starting from a place of marginalization, it still feels hard. I think it could be helpful to remember that the people you’re dating also feel that way. Also, if you’re a fat person, you could be dating another fat person, and they could be experiencing similar feelings of vulnerability.
Virginia
Right? And we should also say fat people can experience being desirable! That’s not an experience universally reserved for thin folks. But I understand what this person is getting at. You may be coming into this feeling like “I have not had that experience of being desired” and that’s adding to the vulnerability.
Corinne
Yeah. I think that it’s helpful to remember the vulnerability goes both ways.
Virginia
That is helpful to remember. I think we tend to think almost like the other people don’t feel real at a certain point? We’ll get into the apps, but I think they add to that feeling. Remembering that everybody is terrified is a good note.
So about the apps, the number one question by far that we got is: Do we post full body pictures on the apps or make other disclosures of fatness in our profiles?
What say you, Corinne?
Corinne
Personally, yeah. I’m always going to post a full body pic. But like, so does everyone else, you know? I just feel like that’s the norm.
Virginia
Oh. Interesting.
Corinne
I feel like it would be weird if you only posted pictures of your face! But maybe I’m just biased?
Virginia
I’m not on any apps, so I know nothing about it. I’m just an anthropologist at this point. Tell me more of the of the norms on the apps!
Corinne
Maybe I’m wrong! Maybe I’m just conditioned to do it this way because I am fat.
I do try to post a photo—like, I’m not going to only post a full body photo of me that’s super flattering or something, you know? Like, I’m not gonna post—it’s hard for me to even think of an example, because I don’t wear shape wear or something. But I’m not going to post a photo where I’m wearing shape wear. I’m trying to post a photo that’s realistic. Like maybe it’s a photo of you hiking or you doing something where you’re not posed in a way that is clear you’re trying to make yourself look as thin as possible.
Virginia
So, no selfies taken from above.
Corinne
No. And I think when you see other people’s profiles that is also what you want to see! I feel like the best photos are photos someone else takes, because you’re not arranging your body or your face in a way that’s trying to be appealing.
Virginia
I mean. I agree with you, and I totally admit, that one of the places I struggle is with photos that I didn’t take and don’t have control over! Because I know the ways that I take photos of myself, and it’s not that I think I look thin in my photos, but I have adjusted my brain to accept myself and to present in that way. Like I have the mirror selfie I take to show an outfit on Instagram, and I think it’s relatively accurate of my body, but probably not as accurate as someone else taking a picture of me straight on.
Corinne
I mean, this is getting a little more philosophical, but I think when you see photos of other people that they haven’t taken in that way where they are arranging themselves, or taking the photo in the way that they think they look good—it’s like you can see more of like their personality or something too. You can see faces reacting to another face, instead of a face just looking at itself.
Virginia
That makes sense.
Corinne
That’s my theoretical thing. But it can be hard to find those photos.
Virginia
Now I’m like, “Okay, must go on a beautiful hike with a friend who is a good photographer.”
Corinne
Who candidly takes a photo of you.
Virginia
Make sure I’m just laughing delightedly.
Corinne
Wear your Spanx.
Virginia
So I’m now turning to the listener notes here. Universally, everyone said yes, include a full body photo. Say you’re fat, say you’re a fat liberationist.
Chelsea Levy, who’s a friend of mine, a fat dietitian in New York City, she wrote:
Share full body photographs in your profile. Doing so will save you time syncing up with someone who is intrigued by your whole package of personality and authenticity. There is someone for everyone.
And I liked that. It’s kind of what you’re saying. She’s taking the focus off aesthetics a little bit even, which I hadn’t thought about doing with photos.
Corinne
I do say in my profiles—I usually say “fat.”
Virginia
Like, in case people don’t look at photos or something?
Corinne
Well, it’s something that I’m going to talk about. Like, if they ask me what is your job? And I’m like, “I’m on a podcast sometimes.” And they’re like, what’s the podcast? It comes up, you know? So I just want it to be out there.
Virginia
Yes. Donnelle, one of the people who runs Philly Fat Con, said, “Make sure it’s clear that like you’re fat and you’re not trying to change it,” which I hadn’t even thought of! But there could be a misconception that if they see your body, but they don’t see you talking about it, they might assume you’re on a weight loss journey or something.
I also like this from Camille, who wrote:
One thing I do is always make sure to post at least one full body pic and I include in my bio that I’m a fat liberationist. I don’t do this because I feel the need to warn people about my size, but rather because it weeds out the fatphobes quite well.
Also, I only date other fat liberationists at this point in my life, and it freaking rules.
Corinne
Who’s going start a fat liberationist dating site? Camille, you seem like a good candidate.
I liked this next one too. This person says,
Recently, I went on a date with someone and beforehand, I was really worried that she didn’t know I was fat, as we hadn’t exchanged photos. So I just told her over text, “hey, just FYI, I’m a fat femme, and that identity is really important to me. I’m letting you know ahead of time, so it’s not a surprise when we meet, since some people aren’t cool with it.”
Her response was, “Some people are assholes. I swore off skinny bitches a long time ago,” which is, of course, not an unproblematic statement. But I cannot describe the feeling of relief that washed over me when she said that.
Yeah, I like that approach. You might as well just put it out there.
Virginia
You’re letting people know who you are and also your values, which feels important. I think that’s really good.
The last note we got about this question is someone who is also, pro-photos, pro-being clear about who you are. They wroteL
I always post a whole body picture. I don’t spend very long chatting. I usually try to move to meeting pretty quickly, and will be the one to ask for a date if I’m inclined. And on a first date, I try to tune into how I feel in my body when I’m with them.
I really love this idea of, “How am I feeling in my body while I’m in this experience?”
Corinne
I love that idea, too, and that’s definitely not something I have heard articulated before, or articulated myself. But I also really agree about don’t spend too long chatting on apps! It almost always ruins everything, for whatever reason. If you have too much chatting chemistry, it never translates. At least not for me. It’s almost like this body thing. Dating or being in a relationship with someone is more about being in space with them. So you just need to as quickly as possible figure out if you have in-person chemistry, and go from there.
Virginia
One thing we didn’t articulate, or this person didn’t mention, is: Is it different if you’re dating for a relationship, versus dating just for a hookup? I guess not. I guess in any scenario, you want to not just be texting,
Corinne
I think it’s really important for both. I feel like there’s this thing that happens with online dating where if you chat too much before you meet, you can get overly intimate. The intimacy jumps ahead of itself or something. You start talking about stuff that you wouldn’t tell people when you’re first meeting them and it just makes it awkward.
My advice is: Talk as little as possible, meet up as soon as possible, and for the first date, plan something very short, something you would enjoy doing even if it was alone. And no alcohol.
Virginia
Wow! No alcohol?
Corinne
It’s this “how it feels in your body” thing. Alcohol affects things, you know?
Virginia
Right, okay.
Corinne
I don’t know. I guess you can have a drink. But my go-to is to go get ice cream.
Virginia
I was about to say, this feels like ice cream.
Corinne
For me it’s great if it’s literally 15 or 20 minutes, because within that time you’ll know: Do I want to see this person again or not?
Virginia
I feel pressure about this! What if you’re kind of slow to warm up?
Corinne
Don’t you think you know very quickly after meeting someone whether you want to know them better?
Virginia
Um, again, I haven’t done this since the tenth grade.
Corinne
But even if it wasn’t dating! Like a friend? I think it’s really similar.
Virginia
Yeah, you do get a vibe even if you’re just talking to someone at a neighborhood barbecue or something. Like, can I stand to be in conversation with this person longer or not? Okay, I see that. How do you tell people you only want it to last 20 minutes, though? I feel like I would be hung up on that.
Corinne
I mean, I don’t. I’m flexible. I think it’s more just that it could end in 20 minutes.
Virginia
Corinne only has dates before she has a dentist appointment. So if it is going well, you would stay longer.
Corinne
Sure, yeah.
Virginia
Unless you have the dentist.
Corinne
I’m not only scheduling them before dentist appointments. But it could end quickly and move into a second longer hangout or something.
Virginia
Got it. So how long does the second date last? If there is a second date.
Corinne
I’m flexible. The second date is like, "“Okay, yes, I could have dinner with this person.” Like, a dinner date with someone you don’t like? Then you’re like, “Oh, great. Now I have to hang out for an hour and try to make conversation.” I’m much more into a quick first date. Plus, then you feel more excited about it.
Virginia
This is excellent advice.
Corinne
I feel like I’m giving away all my secrets.
Virginia
I mean, I guess the only downside is everyone would like dating more?
Okay, so that is what to do with our profiles: Yes, full body pictures. Yes, put some language in there about your your fat values, all of that.
We also got questions about how to evaluate other people’s profiles—and how diet culture can show up and anti-fatness can show up in very coded ways.
One person wrote, “I’ve noticed that so many straight men”—and we’re going to get to the straight men, so put a pin in that part—“list ‘healthy lifestyle’ as what they are looking for in a potential partner on their dating app profiles. And I strongly believe it is code for be thin. Don’t be fat.”
Corinne
I have definitely seen this, not from just straight men. I feel like the other one I see a lot is like “active.” Like, “I’m active.”
Virginia
Someone else said there are so many profiles that have “being active” as a priority.
Corinne
Even like, hiking.
Virginia
Oh, hiking is a red flag.
Corinne
It’s loaded. And I feel like this one is especially interesting for me, because I am active and do spend a lot of time at a gym. And I also know they’re not talking about me. You know?
Virginia
Oh, yup. That’s interesting.
Corinne
Like, you like hiking, but they might not be talking about you.
Virginia
I’m not “active,” though. I wouldn’t put active in my profile. That’s a thing I do, sure. But that would be like, am I going to put teeth brushing in my profile? Also, I sleep every night?
To me, if someone is emphasizing their activity levels in their profile, they’re telling me that that is more of a hobby. Being active is not one of my hobbies. Or it’s like, again, this coded thing, like they’re really saying that they want someone thin.
Corinne
Yeah, it feels like they’re saying, “My expectation is that you’ll be able to keep up,” or something.
Virginia
No! Thank God this date is only 15 minutes long!
Someone else wrote:
“I tend to pass on any guy who says anything about healthy lifestyle, but maybe I’m making an assumption. I also struggle with whether I need the guy to already be doing his own work to understand himself and the world better, or if I only need someone who’s open minded to new ideas like fat liberation.”
And that’s fair, some people might be using the active, healthy lifestyle stuff without having reflected on what that all means. I can see someone inadvertently using it, I guess.
Corinne
I do think it’s better, or more important, to find someone who’s open-minded than who already knows about these issues. Not to say that it isn’t hard in its own way to have to explain anti-fatness to someone. But I just think it’ll go a lot further if someone is open-minded. And that should go for us, too. I think we also have to remember to be open-minded to other people’s ideas about whatever.
Virginia
Right. That’s annoying, but true.
It also feels like, if you narrow the pool down to only people who have already done extensive work on fat liberation, you might, depending on your geographic area, have really narrowed your options. Like, that just might not be feasible in some places to winnow it down that much.
Corinne
I think that’s why open the open-minded thing is also helpful. Because even if someone doesn’t know about fat liberation, they might know about Black Lives Matter. They might have feelings about trans rights. There are other marginalized identities that they might have feelings about or experience with.
[Note: We’re not equating anti-fatness to other forms of bigotry here, just emphasizing that someone already doing work to combat other biases is likely to be more open to this conversation as well!]
Virginia
Yeah, you just have to make sure it’s not the way libertarians say they’re open minded.
Corinne
Mmm yes. Oh, when we were talking about what profile things are red flags, the one that drives me nuts is the fishing pictures.
Virginia
Wait.
Corinne
Like, pictures of men holding fish that they’ve caught. It’s so common. It’s really bizarre. Or hunting stuff, like deer.
Virginia
No.
Corinne
It’s funny because I was just saying, “use a picture of you doing something that someone else took,” but not if it’s fishing or hunting!
Virginia
We are being open minded. But not about everything!
Corinne
Yeah, I don’t know why that is just such a no for me.
Virginia
I mean, is it telling me that fishing is your life so much that you made it your profile picture, in which case I’m not interested because what are we going to talk about? I don’t like to fish, or know how to fish, or want to learn.
Corinne
I think it might be one of the only situations that you have a picture of yourself in.
Virginia
That’s true, especially for straight men, who may not have been socially conditioned to take a million photos of themselves. I also feel like there’s something to… look how big this fish is.
Corinne
Yeah, like “I’m a provider” or something.
Virginia
No, I think it’s “I have a big penis.” It feels compensating, is what I mean to say.
Does that mean we should talk about straight men?
Corinne
Yes.
Virginia
One person wrote, “dating cishet men as a not thin, 40+ year old woman is terrible. Sorry, I know this isn’t even a question.”
Which was real great for me. Thanks!
And my friend Emily McCombs, who’s a great fat writer, wrote to me, “Fat dating is a literal nightmare, but from what I can tell, so is thin dating if you date man.”
So it may be less about bodies and more about the men?
Corinne
I mean, I don’t date straight men, so I feel like I don’t have the most straightforward advice here. But I do think it’s really helpful to go into dating feeling open to meeting people or even excited to meet people. And I think that’s really hard when you’re like, “Dating cis men is terrible.” Not to discount that experience, because I think it’s true. But I also think, if you are going into dating being like, “this is going to be terrible,” it’s going to be really hard.
Virginia
That’s annoying. But it’s good advice.
I think what I struggle with—and again, I’m not on the apps yet. But I am a woman on the Internet who hears from a lot of men. I hear from the worst versions of men. There’s this shirtless bro on Tiktok who just really loves to make videos yelling at me right now. And it’s fine! We would never match on a dating app. He’s really not my type. If that man has a profile, it is absolutely full of “active lifestyle” and not even coded. Like he probably just says, “no fatties,” you know?
Corinne
If you met him for ice cream, you would not want to sit down for more than 15 minutes.
Virginia
Well, no, because he probably can’t eat ice cream. We would not even get that far. But I have to do some work to separate out that type of dude, and those experiences and not bring that into this. Because I think you’re completely right. There’s no point if you’re going in with this negative attitude. And our lived experience in these interactions with toxic straight men is a real thing.
Corinne
I find, just as an introvert homebody type person, that sometimes I just don’t want to go at all. Meeting a new person and getting to know them is really hard. It takes a lot of energy. And I do think, to some extent, dating is a numbers game. It’s just about meeting a bunch of people and deciding whether you like any of them, and whether they also like you back. So I do think if you get to the point where you’re like, “fuck this, fuck men, everything is horrible,” just take a break. Quit the apps or the sites and just go back to living your life in a way that you like.
Virginia
A couple people talked about that and that is certainly how I feel. I freaking love my life. Anything that happens here has to be a real value add. And I think remembering that you have that, and you don’t need this to be a complete person or a happier person. A relationship cannot be the reason someone becomes a happier, more complete version of themselves.
There was a comment I wanted to get your thoughts on. This person wrote,
It’s been so interesting to observe different factors in my dating life. When I was a small fat, dating was different from now. While I’m a medium/large fat, I’ve always dated people of different genders, but when I used to have men in that mix, I noticed a lot of fetishization. Also my fat politics have changed. I used to call myself body positive, now I’m a fat liberationist, and I can definitely see ways in which that affects my dating life for the better, honestly.
But yeah, can we talk about the fetish thing a little bit? What are your thoughts on that?
Corinne
I don’t know, it’s been a while since I’ve dated straight men. I haven’t had a lot of experience with it. I’m almost sort of like, "How are you noticing it?” I’m curious about how it’s actually being manifested.
Virginia
And I mean, some people are into that fetish. So no judgment if that’s your thing. But it’s a weird one to not know how it’s going to come up, I guess.
Corinne
And I think, sometimes, if a thin or straight-sized man is interested in a fat woman, it’s assumed that it’s a fetish thing.
Virginia
Yes. And that’s problematic.
Corinne
I would be curious to know more. Probably Burnt Toasties who have more straight dating experience might have more thoughts.
Virginia
Yeah, I want to hear what people think about that and how it’s coming up! Because I am curious.
Well, to end the “why are straight men” segment on a more upbeat note, I’m going to read this note from Jen who writes,
I met my husband on plenty of fish after trying literally every app for well over a year. Lots of interesting first dates, not a lot of second dates.
Didn’t pass Corinne’s ice cream test, I guess.
It depends on what you’re looking for. I was definitely looking for long term commitment at the time, so the way I framed my profile and how I answered messages was very different from just looking to date or hook up. But I was still very much entrenched in my own anti-fat bias at the time, so I was convinced that I couldn’t find a good partner because I was fat… but then I was also being super judgmental of any fat dudes who wrote to me as well.
It took me dropping all that crap and giving anyone who seemed interesting, interested, and put together a chance. For me, I found my soulmate who also happens to be fat. Turns out I was doubting my own ability to be attracted to someone over an un-photogenic profile photo. Also, the Internet is fake. It’s a great tool, but you’ve got to use it quickly and get onto the in-person stuff efficiently to really know if things are going to work out.
Which is your advice again. But that is a really interesting note that sometimes, in our concerns about fatness, we should reflect on if we’re applying it to the other person.
Corinne
Yeah, this is definitely something I’ve noticed and experienced. I think there’s a certain status if you’re a fat person who has a thin partner. Like, it kind of feels like you are passing in some way? It’s validating. And so I do think that fat people who aren’t into fat liberation or who are more like on the line sometimes can be really averse to dating other fat people. And that sucks.
Virginia
Well, I just appreciate this person’s honesty that they saw this was getting in their way. It was narrowing the pool. I think that’s just something to be honest with yourself about.
Corinne
I think that what they’re saying about giving anyone who seems interesting, interested, and put together a chance is really good advice. Because it’s just so hard to get a feel for a person based on an Internet profile.
Virginia
I mean, those are really good criteria. Put together is a nice way of saying it because it’s not body-specific.
Corinne
It’s like, “Has a job.”
Virginia
Or at least, “Is just is a grown up.” Like, “Comes across as a fully-formed adult human being.”
Corinne
I love this question.
How does an introvert meet people in real life when you’re not interested in dating sites? Is sitting at a bar, beach, diner, bookstore, coffee shop, by yourself a way to do it? Like to become part of the regular crowd? I’m in Seattle and the freeze here is real.
Virginia
I also love this question. I think it really depends where you live. As someone who lives in a small town in the Hudson Valley populated mostly by people I know, becoming part of the regular crowd is not the answer I think. Just because, yeah, small town life.
Corinne
I think the the thing that makes dating sites so appealing is that you know other people are looking for something. In real life, even if you do meet someone and you like them, the chances that they’re also single or looking for the same kind of thing are so small. So I feel like my advice would be to try to go to dating-specific activities. Go to speed dating or go to queer meetups or singles meetup.
Virginia
A singles mixer! Why do all the names have to be so cringey?
Corinne
I don’t know. It’s terrible. I think the other thing you could do is try to ask your friends if they have other single friends that they could host to hang out with.
Virginia
Especially if you’re relationship-oriented. That feels a good way to to do it. But yeah, as an introvert who also doesn’t like to leave her house a lot, I really feel this.
We did get some good advice on this. One person wrote,
I spent a lot of time on the apps and dates from those apps. When I was dating, I really wanted to be in a long-term relationship, but I met my husband and lots and lots of friends through MeetUp. I went to a few meetups that sounded interesting, and got to know folks. It was just a great way to get out and be social with like-minded people. Better than the apps, for sure.
And another person said they joined Sierra Club and Audubon Society to do the same thing because the apps were horrible, in their opinion, and couldn’t replace meeting people in real life through shared interests. And that’s interesting to me. I think the shared interest thing feels really smart.
Corinne
Yeah, well, and I feel like that follows my advice about doing something on the first date that you would actually like doing anyways, like getting ice cream or going on a bird walk.
Virginia
I don’t know, bird watching can take a long time, though. You would exceed your time limit.
Corinne
A 15 minute bird walk. Oh but, how would you know that the other people were, like, single? I guess you’d just have to take that risk.
Virginia
You would have that risk that you’re talking about where you might connect with someone and then turns out they’re married or whatever or just not looking today. But I can see if you’re forming more friendships, you’re making your pond bigger.
Corinne
That’s true too. Because even if you meet someone, whether or not it’s a good romantic fit, maybe they know someone else that they can set you up with or something.
Virginia
I think as introverts, finding ways to feel connected to community is ongoing hard work and anything that makes that feel more doable, I think, will be rewarding in and of itself. And if it leads to dating, great. And if it doesn’t, hey, now you also have fun friends to go bird watching with, so that’s a win. It feels like there’s no downside other than getting over—and believe me, I feel it—that initial introvert hump of like, why do I have to leave my house?
Corinne
Yeah, that’s a really good point. Whether or not you meet someone, it’s enriching your life.
Virginia
I really love the way,
talks about this, and
, and some other writers I really love, who write about being single.Taking the focus off “central monogamous relationship as the epicenter of our lives” is a win for everyone, pretty much. It just opens you up to a lot more possibility, in all sorts of ways. And that can lead you back around to a relationship or not, but the important thing is having that sense of your own life as very full and rich.
Corinne
if you do want to find a romantic relationship, whatever that looks like, it doesn’t make sense to make yourself miserable doing it. You have to find a way to do it that’s, if not enjoyable, at least tolerable. So it’s not ruining your life. You still have to like living your life whether or not you end up with a romantic partner.
Virginia
Oh, my God, totally. That was very well said. I agree.
All right, the last chunk of questions we got were about working through our own internalized anti-fatness. And this person wrote: How do I work through feelings and beliefs of, if I were smaller, I’d get more likes, engagements, and dates?
Corinne
This is tough. My advice for this is: You gotta let it go. Those people aren’t for you. I have also known thin people who have really struggled with dating for whatever reasons. Just to say, I think people struggle with it for all types of reasons. Body size, gender, neurodivergence. There are all types of reasons that people feel that they’re being rejected. But I don’t think the answer is to change yourself to fit in. Do you want to change yourself so that more people are swiping right on you on Tinder? That seems miserable.
Virginia
And are those the people do you want to be with, someone who would only swipe right on you if you were smaller? I mean, if it’s just a hookup, maybe. But if we’re talking about longterm relationships, bodies change. So that might not go right down the road.
This other comment was interesting. This person wrote,
Something I’ve been struggling with lately is trying to figure out how much my lack of dating success can be traced back to being fat and on top of that, how much of my lack of attention from people I’m attracted to is genuine fatphobia in potential partners and them not being interested attracted, versus how much is a self fulfilling prophecy of my internalized fatphobia causing me to assume they won’t be interested or attracted and therefore not making connections or being flirty and not seeming interested in anyone.
A little bit of a puzzle there. But I think I get what they’re saying: Is it that people are not attracted to you, or is it that you’re not putting out “be attracted to me” vibes? So assuming that they’re not attracted.
Corinne
This one also makes me wonder: Are you feeling attracted to, or interested in people who are fat, or are you just trying to find a thin or straight-sized person and assuming that they’re not going to be interested? I don’t know.
Virginia
That’s a fair question.
Corinne
It’s tough. I mean, I think feeling rejected or feeling like people aren’t interested in you definitely makes you question everything you’re doing.
Virginia
I’m thinking though about how one of the triggers for me on negative body thoughts is social anxiety—which will make any future dating a real joy, I’m sure. But it’s not that my body is the problem. It’s that when I’m feeling anxious and stressed, I put that on my body.
And I’m wondering if there’s a parallel thing happening here where it’s not your body that’s the problem, but if you’re feeling rejected and vulnerable, you have been conditioned to decide your body is the reason for all of that.
Corinne
I think that’s probably accurate.
Virginia
I can intellectualize that for us all! But then how do we get to the point where we can, break out of that body blaming and or not go there in the first place. That’s hard work.
Corinne
I mean, I don’t know. I guess that’s maybe part of why I’m like, are you only trying to date thin people? Because you just have to assume that other people are going through the same thing,
Virginia
This is some good advice from one of our Burnt Toast OGs, Katie Rose, who wrote,
When I was dating, my amazing therapist at the time told me make a list of must haves and would likes in a partner and hold firm and to ensure my profile was genuinely me and not what I thought men wanted to see. Learning to be true to what I wanted and not compromise was really hard, but I ended up with a partner who fit my list, with one exception—he’s bald and I had “full head of hair” on the would like list.
And honestly, biggest advice I could give, don’t date without a really good therapist.
I mean, that seems like really good advice. What do you think about the list of must haves and would likes?
Corinne
I think it’s a good idea to be thinking about that, and probably having a list is a good idea. I feel like I would struggle with whether I would put physical characteristics on that. This person is obviously saying they were kind of flexible about it. I’d go back to what that other listener said: Interesting, interested, and put together—those are kind of flexible characteristics.
Virginia
I feel like, to me, the only must have would be to be in agreement about what we’re looking for in the terms of the seriousness of the relationship. Because that feels like, if you have a mismatch, that can be really frustrating. But yeah, it’s an interesting idea. I have not made a list.
All right. Should we move on to the last thoughts?
Corinne
Okay, this was the other thing I was going to say. This is not necessarily a first date thing, maybe a second date thing or something. But I also think it can be nice to ask people—maybe this is more getting into the fetishization thing. But I think it can be nice to ask people: Have you ever dated someone fat before?
I think it can just be a good way to sort of talk about, either what you need from someone you’re dating around that, or whether they have any experience with it or, I don’t know. And I think also a good opportunity for the person you’re dating to bring up if they have any stuff like that.
Virginia
So do you tend to do that? Has that gone well for you?
Corinne
I usually have that conversation around if I’m going to start sleeping with someone. I’ll be like, “Have you ever slept with a fat person before?” And that’s when you’re sort of like, okay, is this a fetishization thing? Is this a totally new experience for you that you’re going to be weirded out by?
I’ve probably gotten that from like, dating and sleeping with trans people who have asked me, “Have you dated or slept with a trans person before?”
Virginia
Sure, sure, sure.
Corinne
Then also it’s a good segue into conversations about, do you have parts of your body that you don’t want people to touch or is there stuff you don’t want people to say, or stuff like that. Boundaries.
Virginia
And consent. So healthy. I love it! It’s very evolved.
Corinne
It’s a good kind of open-ended conversation to have at some point. I don’t know when or where it makes sense. You’ll probably have to figure that out yourself.
Virginia
Which lick of the ice cream cone, in that first 15 minutes?
Corinne
You can spend more than 15 minutes with them, but can you have a conversation about bodies?
Virginia
To be fair, having a conversation like that about bodies with your best friend probably feels hard and scary. So, yeah, doing it with someone who you’ve only got that 15 minute of ice cream time in with, that’s vulnerable. If that sounds terrifying to everybody else, agreed. But it does seem smart.
Corinne
I do think it’s terrifying, but I think it’s good information to have. And it’s something that’s going to be addressed at some point. So why not bring it up in a way that’s not like, in the heat of the moment or something. I don’t know.
Virginia
And of course, rejection sucks or whatever. If it doesn’t go well. But I’d rather do that before we’re super down a road or invested in some way. It’s going to sting less at that point.
Corinne
I think maybe that’s why it’s a better second date thing. If you’re going on a second date, both of you are at least somewhat interested. And then you can be like, “I don’t know, what is your experience dating fat people,” or something like that.
Virginia
This is very good advice.
Okay, all right. So to wrap up, we have a couple of last notes here that I think will like leave us all feeling a little more hopeful and optimistic about the dating landscape. Do you want to read the first one from Chelsea?
Corinne
Yes.
While marketing and advertisements centering beauty standards of smaller bodies will have you believe you need to be smaller, that is far from the truth. 2.3 million couples wed every year in the United States. Rest assured, within that 2.3 million is body diversity. Attraction is multifaceted beyond the physical. Yes, fat people are beautiful. Most important, fat people are worthy of love. What would it feel like to center fat joy and fat romance in your ether?
And that’s from Chelsea Levy.
Virginia
I think that’s so wise. I love what she says about attraction is beyond the physical. I think that’s something that’s easy to forget when you’re reacting to the apps. Really, really smart. And Chelsea just got married, too, and her wedding photos were so lovely.
She also suggested, in terms of books you’re reading, TV shows you’re watching, your social media feeds: Make sure you’re centering fat aspirational characters and stories. Surround yourself with examples of that love.
Corinne
That is really lovely.
Virginia
And then the last one that I really liked, just because it made me laugh, and I think it’s a good mantra for us all. This person wrote, “Don’t settle for somebody who accepts your body. Fat people are hot. You are hot and should be treated like a damn snack.”
Corinne
Yeah, I love that. I do think fat people are hot and I do think it’s helpful to remember that when you’re dating. If I’m attracted to other fat people, why wouldn’t other people be attracted to me?
Virginia
Amen, I love that. I love that. And let’s not let the bar be just mere acceptance. We want more for all of us.
That was very good, and I found it very informative, as someone who hasn’t dated in this century. So I hope it’s helpful for everyone with much more recent experience.
Corinne
Yeah, I’m excited to hear what people have to say. I bet Burnt Toasties will have a lot of good advice, too.
Virginia
I feel like you may get more follow up questions. You might now be our new dating guru.
Corinne
I can’t wait.
Colette pants in dark wash denim. Also, mirror selfie!!
Butter
Corinne
Okay, my Butter this week is a recipe.
Virginia
Ooh, fun.
Corinne
It’s a good end of summer, last hurrah, type of recipe. My mom made it for me when I was in Maine, and then I have made it since coming home. It’s a New York Times recipe and it’s called Taverna salad. It’s like a really big, delicious salad that has tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, and also you toast pita and add it in, and it also has halloumi and chickpeas. So feels very hearty and filling. It’s really good.
Virginia
Is it one you can have good leftovers from?
Corinne
Yes, the pita chunks will get a little soggy, but they’re still totally good. I'm eating it over multiple days.
Virginia
Oh, okay, I need to do this. That sounds like a great work from home lunch option. What kind of dressing?
Corinne
It has its own dressing recipe. Like, red wine vinegar and oregano or something. It’s kind of Greek-ish or Italian-ish. It’s really good. It has a lot of salty things, like olives and capers and stuff. Highly recommend.
Virginia
Okay, my Butter is really a butter in progress. Because I haven't totally decided if I like this thing, but I want to talk about it, because finding pants is so hard. It’s the bulk of our work, really, as humans, as well as Burnt Toast readers.
I have for several weeks now, been auditioning the Colette pants from Anthropologie, which a lot of people really love. They’re a cult favorite, and I tried them first through Nuuly, which is that clothing rental service I've been doing. Which, yes, I’m going to do a whole thing talking about the pros and cons of Nuuly as a fat person.
But what is interesting about the Colette pants is how weird the sizing is, and yet they might be great? They are a mid-rise, almost like sailor pant style and available up to 26W. But they don't have all the crazy buttons. They have cute front pockets, and they’re a very wide-legged crop pant. I first got them in linen, in a hot pink. But the sizing is extremely generous. I first ordered the 20 (my usual Anthropologie size) and it was enormous. I went to dinner with my book editor and they fell off me by the end of dinner. They stretched out so fast. So then I went down to the 18s, and they were pretty good, but after a day, they were stretched out too. And then I went down to the 51s, and in linen, the 15 would not zip up. And I was like, “well, that means these are terrible pants. This is not for me.” But now I’m wearing them in the denim in the 16, and they were tight the first day, but now they’re amazing.
People really love these pants, and they run big, so the sizing is more generous than we sometimes think from Anthropologie plus sizes. But I want to hear people’s thoughts, because they come in a lot of different fabrics and there are a lot of varieties of these pants. So they’re not all great, but there may be one that works for folks. The denim is very cute, and they stretch just enough.
Sophie Strauss told me that she also loves them and recommends them for clients all the time. A lot of people don't like Anthropologie, I understand all the reasons not to like Anthropologie. But pant shopping is hard!
But I do have mixed feelings about the idea that pants are going to be too tight to put on the first day and then fit the next day. This is asking a lot of labor for me from pants. So that’s why it’s a qualified butter. But they are very fun and cute. And if the fabrics work for you, they come in like a million good colors.