Property Management Growth with DoorGrow DGS 311: Taking control of your Business by building Deeper Relationships
We are living in a post-trust era. Trust is at an all-time low, and people are more on guard than ever. How does this impact the property management industry?
In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Darryl Stickel of Trust Unlimited to talk all about building and maintaining trust.
You’ll Learn
[01:30] The Foundations of Building Trust
[06:51] Where Uncertainty Comes From and How to Eliminate it
[11:37] The Golden Bridge Formula
[21:27] The Role of Vulnerability in Building Trust
[31:49] AI and the Post-Trust Era
Quotables“Sales and deals happen at the speed of trust.”
“Trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when you can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave.”
“There's three levers within us as individuals, and those are benevolence, integrity, and ability.”
Resources TranscriptJason Hull (00:00)
This is really what property managers sell. They sell trust. They don't really sell property management.
Darryl (00:03)
Yeah.
Jason Hull (00:05)
All right, I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors,
improve pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like bar rescue for property managers. In fact, we've cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses. We run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry. And at DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships,
and residual income. We are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now, let's get into the show. And today, I am hanging out with Darryl Stickel of Trust Unlimited. Welcome, Darryl to the DoorGrow Show.
Darryl (01:26)
Thanks for having me, Jason. It's a pleasure to be here.
Jason Hull (01:29)
It's great to have you. So I'm really excited about the topic of trust because I talk about this all the time. In fact, one of my most common phrases that I say to clients when talking about sales is that sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. And so I'm excited to get into this. So give us a little bit of background on you and then we'll get into the topic at hand. So tell us a little bit about Darryl and how you sort of
Darryl (01:45)
They do, yeah.
Jason Hull (01:56)
arrived at Trust Unlimited.
Darryl (01:59)
Yeah. So I was
born and raised in a small town in Northern British Columbia, Canada, fairly isolated community, harsh winter conditions. And so people learned that they had to pull together and it meant that you needed to look out for your neighbor and that if you could help someone, you should. And so growing up in that background, I had a sense of responsibility to others, desire to be helpful.
When I was 17 years old, I was playing hockey in a neighboring community and I was attacked by a fan at the club. And he shattered my helmet, knocked me unconscious. I ended up with a severe concussion and I had a visual impairment. I knew that I was going to become legally blind, which I am now. So my plan had been to think for a living.
Jason Hull (02:32)
I ended up with a severe concussion. And I had a visual impairment.
Hmm. ⁓
Darryl (02:46)
And now all of a sudden I had the attention span of a fruit fly and I couldn't think. and so this experience promoted a sense of empathy for me because there were such feelings of, of helplessness and hopelessness. And fast forward a few years and I'm studying psychology and moving towards becoming a clinical psychologist. And people would just come up to me and.
Jason Hull (02:52)
And so this experience promoted a sense of empathy.
I like...
Yeah.
Darryl (03:08)
start telling me their problems. I'd be sitting on a bus and a complete stranger would sit down next to me and say, I'm really having a hard time.
And so I wanted to understand why that was happening. And I went and did a master's degree in public administration, worked in native land claims in British Columbia. And they would ask me these sort of deep philosophical questions like, what is self-government or what will the problems look like 50 years after claims are settled?
Jason Hull (03:15)
So I went to understand why that was happening. And I went to do the master's degree in public administration. I worked in native land claims in British Columbia. They would ask me certain questions like what is self-government? What will the province look like 50 years after claims are
settled? The last question they asked me was how do I condescend people who have shafted for over 100 years and should trust us? I thought man, that's
Darryl (03:35)
The last question they asked me was how do I convince a group of people who have shafted for over a hundred years, they should trust us? I thought, man, that's a
good question. So I went to Duke, wrote my doctoral thesis on building trust in hostile environments. Um, had a couple of leading experts in the field of trust on my committee. And when I finished, they said, you know, when you first started, we first came to us, we had a conversation. We agreed too big, too complex. He never solves it.
Jason Hull (03:43)
So I went to Duke, wrote my doctoral thesis on building trust in hostile environments. Had a couple of leading experts in the field of trust on my committee. And when I finished, said, you know, when you first started, when you first came to us, we had a conversation. We agreed, too big, too complex, you never saw us.
Darryl (04:03)
We'll give him six months and then he'll come crawling back to us and we'll let him chisel off a little piece of this and that'll be his thesis. I said, six months in, you were so far beyond us, we couldn't help anymore. All we could do was sit and listen. And here we are years later, we think you've solved it. And so I went and worked for McKinsey and Company, a big management consulting firm, and got to start applying the concepts that I'd learned.
Jason Hull (04:03)
gave him six months to come from the back to us. we just left with a piece of this. would be the thesis. He said six months in, you were so far beyond us, couldn't help it. All we could do was send him us. And here we are years later, we're all sold. And so I went and worked for McKinsey Company, a big management consultant for him.
Yeah.
Darryl (04:25)
And then on the way to a client
side, was involved in a car accident, ended up with post-concussion syndrome again, and couldn't work those kinds of hours anymore. So I just started a small company called Trust Unlimited and started helping people better understand what trust was, what it is, how it works, and most importantly, how to build it.
Jason Hull (04:36)
started helping people better understand what trust was, what it is, how it works, and most importantly how it goes.
And that's quite the journey. That's quite the story. And so now this is what your, this is your gig. This is what you focus on. You focus on helping people understand trust. Yeah.
Darryl (04:52)
Yeah, it's what
I've devoted my career and my life to. And so for the last 20 years, I've been helping nonprofits, private sector, public sector, Canadian military got me to help them figure out how to try to build trust with the locals in Afghanistan. Yeah, so I've been trying to help solve problems.
Jason Hull (05:10)
Well, let's make this one of those opportunities for you to help some people that are listening figure out this challenge of trust. Because trust, really feel like, is fundamental and foundational to any relationship and to sales and to growing a business and all of that.
Darryl (05:27)
It is.
It's so critical for your audience because they need the trust of the property owners, but they also need the trust of the tenants. They act as an intermediary and so they need to be experts at building relationships with others.
Jason Hull (05:36)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
So I'm sure this is, I don't know if this can be answered in a short time period, but give us an idea of how do we create trust from scratch? How do we make this work? What did you figure out?
Darryl (05:56)
Yeah, so we start with
the definition, trust is the willingness to be vulnerable when you can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave. And that definition has two elements in it. It's got perceived uncertainty and perceived vulnerability. And those actually multiply together to give us a level of perceived risk. So we've got uncertainty times vulnerability gives us a level of perceived risk. We each have a threshold of risk that we can tolerate.
Jason Hull (06:03)
Okay.
Darryl (06:21)
If we go beyond that threshold, we don't trust. If we're beneath it, then we do. And so.
If we want to understand trust, need to understand where does uncertainty come from? Where do perceptions of vulnerability come from? And how do we take steps to manage those? Because early in a relationship, uncertainty is really high. means we can only tolerate a small range of vulnerability and still fit beneath that threshold. As that relationship gets deeper, the uncertainty declines, the range of vulnerability we can tolerate starts to grow.
Jason Hull (06:41)
Right.
that relationship gets deeper, the uncertainty declines, the range of vulnerability increases.
And so really, for your audience, it's going to be about how do I take steps to understand somebody else's uncertainty.
Darryl (06:51)
And so really for your audience, it's going to be about how do I take steps to understand somebody else's uncertainty?
How do I help reduce it?
Jason Hull (07:00)
What are some typical examples of uncertainty that people might have?
Darryl (07:06)
Yeah. So uncertainty comes from two
places. comes from us as individuals and it comes from the context we're embedded in. And so for owners, their uncertainty is what are the tenants doing? How are they treating the property? Is it going to be well maintained? Are they going to pay on time? And so property managers can help manage that by helping them set up contracts, helping.
Jason Hull (07:17)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Darryl (07:31)
by reviewing the property on an occasional basis, monitoring behavior patterns for tenants, understanding tenant behavior in a way that most property managers don't have the opportunity to, or property owners don't have the property, because you see a much broader swath of humanity than the typical property owner does. You're more engaged, you're on the ground. And so,
Jason Hull (07:35)
monitoring behavior patterns for tenants, understanding tenant behavior in way that most property managers...
Because you see a much broader swath of humanity than the typical property of the country. You're more engaged, you're on the ground.
And so
if we start to think about how we reduce uncertainty, uncertainty comes from me and it comes from the context. Well, what are the things that I can do as a property manager to reduce some of this uncertainty?
Darryl (07:59)
If we start to think about how we reduce uncertainty, uncertainty comes from me and it comes from the context. Well, what are the things that I can do as a property manager to reduce somebody's uncertainty?
There's three levers within us as individuals, and those are benevolence, integrity, and ability.
Jason Hull (08:18)
benevolence you said in integrity what was the last what was the third one ability ability yeah okay got it I got it okay
Darryl (08:19)
integrity and ability and benevolence is just ability, competence. Yeah. Can I do the job?
And
so Jason, we, all have the ability to build trust with others. Just some are better than others at it. Those who aren't very good have a lever that they pull and they pull that lever over and over again and just hope it lines up. Those who are better have multiple levers. Those who are really good have multiple levers and they know when to pull which one. And so.
Jason Hull (08:37)
This one.
Hmm. ⁓
So
what I do is I walk people through the different levers and help explain how to pull them. So benevolence is just the belief you got my best interest.
Darryl (08:54)
What I do is I walk people through the different levers and then help explain how to pull them. So benevolence is just the belief you've got my best interest at heart
and that you'll act in my best interest.
Jason Hull (09:03)
Right.
Darryl (09:06)
So as a property manager, you're thinking about what does the property owner's best interest look like? What does success look like for them?
How do I help them get there?
Integrity is do I follow through on my promises and do my actions line up with the values that I express?
Jason Hull (09:16)
integrity is do I follow through on my promises? ⁓
Darryl (09:22)
And so what are the both the explicit promises I'm making to people and the implied promises, the things that they're expecting from me.
And then ability is, I actually have the competence to do the job? And a lot of times when we pull the ability lever, we make assumptions about what excellence looks like, but we don't include the other person in that conversation.
Jason Hull (09:41)
Hmm. Okay.
Darryl (09:41)
So as a property manager, you may think having the right forms in place and,
you know, having a scheduled set of routines and you've got an idea of what excellence looks like. But if you actually included your stakeholders in that conversation, you might come up with a different list of things. And that's both the property owner and the tenant.
Jason Hull (09:49)
scheduled set of routines and you've got an idea of what essence of something. But if you actually included your stakeholders in that conversation, like
both the property owner and tenant.
Darryl (10:03)
So including them in that conversation can be really eye-opening.
Jason Hull (10:03)
So including them in that conversation could be really helpful. Yeah. Yeah, just making sure you're both on the same page.
Darryl (10:09)
And then
exactly. And we interpret the world through stories. one of the challenges that your audience faces is that they may have a story about what's going on with the property. The owner might have a different story and the tenant might have a third story. And that's where we run into conflict.
Jason Hull (10:14)
What are the challenges that your audience faces?
they may have a story about what's going on.
Yeah.
Right. And so if we're not active, you know, a lot of times I'll talk to owners and senior executives and I'll tell them about those three levers and they'll say, well, I do all
Darryl (10:29)
And so if we're not active, you know, a lot of times I'll talk to owners and senior executives and I'll tell them about those three levers and they'll say, well, I do all those things.
And my response will always be says who, because if it's me telling you I'm benevolent, Jason, it doesn't carry a lot of freight. You have to actually believe it. Right. So I need to include you in the conversation to understand.
Jason Hull (10:42)
And my response will always be, says who? Because if it's me telling you about the devil, Jason, going to carry a lot of freight. Right. I need to include you in the conversation to understand
what are your best interests? How do I help you be successful? What are your best
Darryl (10:56)
What are your best interests? How do I help you be successful?
What are your values?
What are your, what's your understanding of my values and the actions I take? And can I tell a story about each decision I make and how it aligns with my values? Am I transparent about following through on my commitments? Do I say to you, I'm going to check the property every three months or every six months or once a year. Here's how I'm going to do that. Here's how I'm going to monitor.
Jason Hull (11:11)
Okay. Am I transparent and I follow through on my commitments? Do I say to you, I'm going to check the property every three months or every six months or once a year? Here's how I'm going to do that. Here's how I'm going to monitor
it. And then do I follow up with the owner and say,
Darryl (11:28)
And then do I follow up with the owner and say,
as per our agreement or as per my commitment, this is me following up on the promise that I made.
Jason Hull (11:31)
As for our
Okay, so Darryl, I love this. This aligns a lot with a book that I'm writing right now called The Golden Bridge Formula. And this Golden Bridge Formula is something that I've used in creating trust quickly in order to facilitate sales. And it's a formula that I've taught my clients. And I think it aligns really well with this. And the basic formula is,
Darryl (11:44)
Okay.
Okay.
Jason Hull (12:00)
It's based on the idea that everybody trusts others to follow their own motives, to do what's in their best self-interest. We generally can trust that. And so the Golden Bridge formula is basically in simple form is me sharing my personal why, what drives and motivates me, connecting it to the business and the business's why, and then connecting the business why to the prospects why, or your targets why, like what they want.
Darryl (12:07)
Okay.
Jason Hull (12:26)
which means you have to figure out their why first, right? You gotta figure out and ask questions first and then you can share and reveal. You know, once you figure out what they want, you can share and where they wanna go. You can share your motives. so, the more extended version of the formula is personal why, what that means, plus the business why, what that means, which is where we get into the values of the company, stuff like this. And then connect it to the prospects why and what that would mean for them. And this is...
Darryl (12:47)
right.
Jason Hull (12:52)
One of my greatest shortcuts for getting somebody that's terrible at sales to do sales in an authentic way and dramatically increase their close rate. Because any objection really always boils down to, I don't trust you. That's really the only true objection in sales. I don't trust your product or your service enough to believe that it's worth the price or that it's actually gonna work or it's gonna benefit me. The one thing people trust is for others to be selfish.
Darryl (13:00)
Nice.
Right.
Jason Hull (13:20)
They trust people to do what's in their best interest. So if I can share my motivation, my golden bridge, and the actual bridge is the business. The business is this vehicle that gets me what I want and it gets my client what they want, right? And so if I can relate that, it creates this connection where we can both trust each other because if I'm selfish, I am able to help them and I get what I want. And so I'll give you my example.
Darryl (13:34)
Right.
Jason Hull (13:46)
personal why is to inspire others to love true principles. And so what that means is I love learning what works and sharing it with other people. I would do that for free for fun. I love paying for it. I take it coaches and mentors and door grow secretly not so secretly exist because I love being able to spend a lot of money on coaches, mentors, programs to be able to learn new stuff that I can turn around and then benefit and share with other entrepreneurs, with my clients.
Darryl (14:12)
Great.
Jason Hull (14:13)
And they can trust that if I continue to do that, I'm going to benefit them. DoorGrow exists because everyone on my team, our why at DoorGrow is to transform property management business owners and their businesses. And so everybody on my team buys into that. We want to see our clients win and we want to change their businesses. And so that's why they come to us. And so they know if they come to us that I'm going to continue to learn, I'm going to continue to share the best stuff that I can find.
in hopes that we achieve this business goal because it selfishly feeds my addiction to learning and it's going to benefit them. It's a win-win-win for everybody that's involved.
Darryl (14:46)
Right.
Yeah, that's a powerful approach, finding shared superordinate goals, right? Finding the overlap between wins for both of us. And partly that requires, you're right, the conversation with the other to find out what their goals and objectives are, how we help them be successful. It also requires an awareness on our part of what our goals and objectives are. Right. And I mean, for me, I'm trying to have a positive impact on the world.
Jason Hull (14:55)
Hmm.
Yeah.
It also requires an awareness on heart rate.
And I mean, for me, I'm trying to have a positive impact
on the world. I get a charge out of it. Trying to make the world a place. And so I'm trying to get the signal through the noise. There's a number of folks who've said I'm one of the world's leading experts on trust. There's a couple of well-placed people who said I'm the guy. I'm just really trying to have as much positive impact as I can.
Darryl (15:15)
I get a charge out of trying to make the world better place. And so I'm trying to get the signal through the noise. There's a number of folks who've said, I'm one of the world's leading experts on trust. There's a couple of well-placed people who've said I'm the guy. Um, and I'm just really trying to have as much positive impact as I can.
And you're right. It's selfish. I've got two sons that are 24 and 21.
I want the world to be a better place for them. And I like it when people are able to be successful and have powerful, productive relationships because I believe that that's one of the few things we actually control. It's how we show up in the world, how we engage with others.
Jason Hull (15:49)
I love it.
Yeah, great stuff
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Darryl (16:18)
Yeah.
Jason Hull (16:33)
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back to trust. Cool. I love this idea. You talked about benevolence, integrity, and your ability, and figuring out how to relate those in a way that is believable to others. I shared a little bit about my Golden Bridge formula. I'm curious what you think of that because you're the expert on trust. Maybe I'll have to quote you in my book or something.
Darryl (17:04)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
that'd be awesome. Yeah. So I think part of the DoorGrow
principle or part of the golden bridge principle is finding a way to be benevolent and have it be transparent. Right. Because what I, the conversation I convince, or I get my clients, my coaching clients to go through is find someone to practice with. Cause that's how we really learn and have the following conversation.
Jason Hull (17:37)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Darryl (17:52)
I heard this guy, Darryl, he was talking about trust. He said that benevolence is really important, which is just a fancy word for having someone's best interest or having their back. And I think I do that, but it doesn't always seem to land that way. Have you ever experienced that?
Jason Hull (18:00)
Sure,
yeah,
Darryl (18:07)
Yeah, and just what everyone has. And so...
Now we get curious and we ask the other person, can you think of an example of when you tried to act on someone's behalf and it backfired or they had the wrong story? And it creates this conversation and it starts priming them. Then we narrow the funnel and we say, has someone ever really had your back? Have they ever really looked out for you? What did they do? How did it feel?
Jason Hull (18:12)
Now, we get curious and we ask the other person, can you think of an example of when you tried to act on someone's behalf and it backfired or they had the wrong story? And it creates this conversation and starts priming them. Then we narrow the funnel and we say, has someone ever really had your back? Have they ever really looked out for you? What did they do? How did it feel?
Now we're priming them even more.
Darryl (18:36)
Now we're priming them even more and
we're getting a chance to get some hints about what benevolence looks like for that person. So that when we do try to pull that lever, it really lands. Then we narrow the funnel further and we say, a success for you. How do I help you get there? What would it look like if I had your best interest at heart? And that's what you guys do every day when you're trying to help companies grow the number of doors that they sell.
Jason Hull (18:38)
And we're getting a chance to get some hints about what benevolence looks like to that person. So that when we do try to pull that lever, it really lands. Then we narrow the funnel further and say, what's success for you? How do I help you get there? What would it look like if I had your best interest and heart? And that's what you guys do every day when you're trying to help companies grow the number of doors that they
sell. You're trying to help them be successful.
Darryl (19:04)
you're trying to help them be successful.
And so.
Jason Hull (19:08)
Absolutely.
It sounds like almost a variation of a common sales question that some call the crystal ball question, which is like, 12 months from now, if we were to work together, how would you know that this was a success? What would success look like? If this was a win for you, what would have been true for you to feel like this was really a great decision?
Darryl (19:23)
Right.
Right. And then here's how I'm going to help you get there. And it opens up the opportunity for us to be transparent moving forward. Because we can say, you remember when you told me this is what mattered to you? This is what success looked like? This is me doing that. So there isn't room for misinterpretation or a crossing of the wires. Now context is the other element of uncertainty, right? It's the rules of the game.
Jason Hull (19:41)
This is me doing that. So there isn't room for misinterpretation or crossing the border.
Now, context is the other element of uncertainty. Right? It's the rules of the
game. And you just talked about pest cover. That's a way to change the context so that there's a structured system in place where people can respond more consistently. It reduces uncertainty.
Darryl (19:55)
and you just talked about CoverPest. that's a way to change the context so that there's a structured system in place where people can respond more consistently. It reduces uncertainty.
Similar with the programs that you develop for your clients. was listening to one of your podcasts around leadership. You have offerings that help them change the context. So it becomes more automated, more consistent, which creates a greater consistency for property owners and for clients or tenants that you're interacting with.
Jason Hull (20:09)
Similar with the programs that you develop for your clients. was listening to one of your podcasts around leadership. You have offerings that help them change the context so it becomes more automated, more consistent, which creates a greater consistency for property owners and for clients or tenants that you're interacting
with. And so you're taking steps to reduce uncertainty.
Darryl (20:34)
And so you're taking steps to reduce uncertainty.
So how do we have a conversation with property managers about doing that same thing, about putting rules and regulations in place that govern their behavior, that push them towards a more consistent place?
Jason Hull (20:38)
So how do we have a conversation with property managers about doing that same thing? About putting rules and regulations in place that govern their behavior, that push them towards a
Yeah, yeah, could be, I mean, it's a lot of factors go into this, right? Like their company core values certainly is how they might go about doing this. Their policies and procedures goes into more specific tactical implementation of those values. And then you're getting into like, what's the motive behind it? Which is where we maybe define like some sort of external focused client centric mission statement. Which.
Darryl (20:57)
Yep.
and the incentive
structures and the job descriptions, right?
Jason Hull (21:16)
relates to that benevolence. Yeah,
so even with individual team members having really solid job descriptions where there's clear outcomes defined. Yeah.
Darryl (21:27)
Then we go to the vulnerability side of the equation. Sometimes a sale doesn't happen because people feel too vulnerable. They want to find a solution that's cheaper or easier. Think about ice cream stores that let you try a sampling of different flavors before you buy. Or retail outlets that have return policies that are very generous. These are all ways for them to reduce your perceived vulnerability.
Jason Hull (21:27)
And we could
They want to find a solution that's cheaper or easier. Think about ice cream store.
Yeah.
Darryl (21:52)
So if I'm trying to grow doors, partly I want to get referrals, but partly I also want to have an opportunity for people to try me out a little bit so that they can reduce that uncertainty so that we've got varying levels of vulnerability that they can experience with us so that our relationship with them can grow over time. And so does that mean that I'm having conversations with them, sharing information with them, giving things to them for free?
Jason Hull (21:53)
So if I'm trying to grow doors, partly I want to get referrals. But partly I also want to have an opportunity for people to try me out a little bit so that they can reduce that uncertainty so that we've got varying levels of vulnerability that they can experience with us. So that our relationship with them can grow over time. So does that mean that I'm having conversations with them, sharing information with them, giving things to them for free?
Darryl (22:22)
so that they start to get a better sense of who I am and what my why is, and they can see the consistency between my values that I've expressed and the actions I'm taking.
Jason Hull (22:22)
so that they start to get a better sense of who I am and what my line is. And they can see the consistency between the lines that I've expressed in the actual
company.
Darryl (22:32)
Once we've made the trust decision, we have what I call perceived outcomes. So we can have exactly the same experience, but have dramatically different interpretation of what's just happened. And we, in the outcome section, we have two levers. There's was the outcome a success or a failure and who gets the credit, who gets the blame. And because we interpret the world through stories, if we're not active in the creation of the narrative,
Jason Hull (22:32)
Once we've made the trust decision, we have what I call perceived outcomes. So we can have exactly the same experience, but have dramatically different interpretation of what's just happened. And we, in the outcome section, we have two levers. There's, what is the outcome of success or failure? And who gets the credit? Who gets the blame?
And because we interpret the world through stories, if we're not active in the creation of the narrative,
Darryl (23:01)
we run the risk of people coming up with a completely different story from ours. And that perceived outcome then feeds back into our next interaction with that same person.
Jason Hull (23:02)
we run the risk of people coming up with a completely different story from ours. And that perceived outcome that feeds back into our next day of rationing that same person. True. Yeah. In the middle of all this, Jason, is our emotional states. So 99 % of the trust research treats people like rational actors. You've met people, right?
Darryl (23:13)
In the middle of all this, Jason, is our emotional states. So 99 % of the trust research treats people like rational actors. You've met people, right?
Jason Hull (23:24)
Yeah, they're not rational actors. We're not. We're emotional actors. Yeah.
Darryl (23:25)
we're not always rational. And the more emotional, yeah, the more emotional
we become, the less rational we are. Right? And so we, need to find a way to reset those emotional states before we pull these other levers because otherwise we're just wasting our time.
Jason Hull (23:35)
Yeah. Right. So we need to find a way to reset those emotions.
Right, yeah. If we start trying to attack their story or start trying to attack when they're already preloaded or angry with logic, it's not generally gonna be super effective.
Darryl (23:55)
doesn't tend to work. And so the research that I do and the doctoral thesis that I wrote is different from most of the trust research in a few different ways. One is I include context, which the other work tends not to, which helps explain why we trust some people without knowing anything about them, right? Go to a doctor's office. Doctor says, off your clothes and, and you do, right?
Jason Hull (24:11)
Hmm.
Yeah,
they're kind of an earned authority in some people's minds. They've got the lab coat and they are the person we were shown to after we got through the lobby. And so we're like, I guess I will do what they tell me to do unless it gets weird. Yeah. So now take that and shift it from a doctor's office to a gas station restroom. Same two people, guys wearing the white lab coat.
Darryl (24:20)
Yeah.
Yeah. So now take that and shift it from a doctor's office to a gas station restroom. Same two people, guys wearing the white lab coat.
Same conversation, take off your clothes. goes from credible to creepy in a heartbeat, right?
Jason Hull (24:42)
Right, context is definitely going to have an impact.
Darryl (24:46)
And then I include
vulnerability, which most of the trust research doesn't, which means that trust is a continuous variable, not a dichotomous one, right? Dichotomous variable means that it's like an old time light switch. It's either present or absent. Reality is we trust some people more than the others and the trust can grow and evolve over time. Yeah. And so what I do is I try to help people learn how to build deeper relationships.
Jason Hull (24:51)
which means that trust is a continuous forever.
The conness variable means that it's like a
Right. It's on or off. Yeah. Yeah. It's a spectrum.
Darryl (25:15)
so that they're more resilient. So that when something goes wrong, you don't lose clients. And when things go wrong, because they inevitably go wrong, right?
Jason Hull (25:20)
Right.
Darryl (25:27)
Our response is given the most positive story you can. Tenants who leave for one reason or another aren't bad mouthing our company or are less likely to. That's what trust buys us.
Jason Hull (25:28)
Our response is given the most positive story you can.
Tendents to leave for one reason or another aren't bad.
likely to, that's what trespassers.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They give us the benefit of the doubt if we, and I think, you know, a lot of this is established even before the sale, during the sales process, that's how we get to the sale. And then afterwards, how we onboard them can have a massive impact so that they don't have buyer's remorse. And, you know, it's that beginning of the relationship because it's so fresh and new, it's where we're kind of establishing.
Darryl (26:00)
Yeah.
Jason Hull (26:07)
and showcasing benevolence, integrity, and ability, right?
Darryl (26:11)
That's right. And we're setting that story
for the future interactions that we have so that they look for confirming evidence.
Jason Hull (26:18)
Yeah, because if we create some confirming strong evidence in the beginning and then something is out of congruence or there's something seems off to them, they may give us the benefit of the doubt. They may look at this and go, well, they've always been good to me in the past. So maybe something's off here. So they might be a little more open to having a conversation to understand why things went the way they did. Right.
Darryl (26:39)
Right, they might give you the opportunity to retain their business rather than just leave it.
Jason Hull (26:44)
Yeah, got it. Cool. Well, yeah, this is really fascinating. I really have enjoyed this. Is there anything in wrapping up that you feel would make a big impact for people that are wanting to increase this? Maybe how do they know how vulnerable to be without making themselves look like they're incompetent and hurt the ability thing? Yeah.
Darryl (26:44)
Yeah.
Yeah. So share, don't scare, right?
Yeah. ⁓ a lot of times when I talk about building trust, I talk about small dose of vulnerability, share, don't scare, you know, acknowledge that you're not perfect or that you don't know something or that you're curious about the other party. and heavy dose of benevolence. So
Jason Hull (27:09)
Yeah.
Hmm.
videos
Darryl (27:26)
really trying to find out what's in the best interest of the other party. ⁓ I think if we do it right, if we engage with a small dose of vulnerability to start, it triggers a natural response in the other party to want to respond the same way.
Jason Hull (27:29)
Right.
I if we do it...
gauge with a small dose
Yeah. Well, I have a good example. So I have a client and I thought I was being benevolent. He felt he hadn't really utilized our services for a couple of months or a few months because he was focused on other things. So he was looking to cancel. So I said, hey, why don't we discount your monthly fee down to like a third and to take care of you and make sure you're getting the benefit. And
Darryl (27:44)
And yeah.
Okay.
Jason Hull (28:07)
I got on a call with him and he hadn't really fulfilled his part of the deal, which was he was gonna work on adding another 25 units in outdoors and I was gonna sponsor him or lower our fee for two to three months. And he came back and he was like, well, I thought you were gonna let me continue this indefinitely until I got 100 doors. And I'm like, but you're not doing any work. So he's frustrated, I'm frustrated and he's wanting to cancel and...
Darryl (28:30)
Great.
Jason Hull (28:35)
I want to let him cancel because I feel like he's taking advantage of me and our team's goodwill. But I can see he feels that we'd sort of made some promise, even though we misunderstood it, that we would just help him indefinitely until he got to 100 doors, regardless of whether he's doing the work or not.
Darryl (28:51)
Right. Yeah, and sometimes being benevolent isn't being nice. Right.
Jason Hull (28:52)
Yeah, and sometimes you...
Hmm. Yeah, yeah,
sometimes people what people need is a punch in the face metaphorically. Yeah.
Darryl (29:02)
Right. Or a kick in the butt. Yeah.
So my, my son wanted to get a baseball scholarship and he told me that. And I said, well, to do that, you need to have good grades. You need to work hard. You need to play well. You've got to be a good coach, a good assistant to the coach. Like the coach needs to like you to advocate on your behalf and you've got to be a good teammate. And so I, I said, I'm going to.
Jason Hull (29:08)
Hmm.
Do that.
Yeah. ⁓
on your behalf.
And so I said, I'm
going to ask you about all these things. so I'm like, are you eating right? you doing your homework? Are going to get good grades? Are you working hard? And so I'm asking him all the things that parents don't ask their kids, except that he perceives it as me having his back, not being on his back. so holding into a count in that moment, similarly, if we've got
Darryl (29:29)
ask you about all these things. And so I'm like, are you eating right? Are you doing your homework? Cause you gotta get good grades. Are you working hard? And so I'm asking him all the things that parents normally ask their kids, except that he perceives it as me having his back, not being on his back. And so holding him to account in that moment, you know, and similarly, if, if we've got people in our
office who want promotions, well,
Jason Hull (29:54)
in our office who want promotion.
Well, that means that you need to show up like that.
Darryl (29:58)
That means that you need to show up like that new role.
Right? I need to be confident that you can handle that role before I give it to you. So that means I need to ask more of you. I need to hold you to a higher standard. Need to push you harder. And if your client says he's going to get 25 doors and he hasn't...
Jason Hull (30:03)
I need to be confident that you can handle that role before I give it to you. So that means I need to ask more of you. I need to hold you to a higher standard. I to push you harder. And if your client says he's gonna get 25 doors and he
hasn't...
Darryl (30:23)
then the response may well be, want you to be successful, but right now I'm just enabling you to kind of coast. And I may not be the right solution for you at this moment.
Jason Hull (30:23)
then the response may well be, I want you to be successful, but right now I'm just unable to cut costs. And I may not be the right switch for you at
this point. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I don't need his money, so I generally wanna help him grow, but yeah, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, I guess. But you can't the roads, right?
Darryl (30:43)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And so if you really want to have his best interests at heart, it starts to become a conversation of what's getting in the way. How do we help pull away some of those barriers that you're experiencing? And if, if we're just part of the noise, then we probably need to stop for awhile.
Jason Hull (30:48)
I don't know. Yeah, and so if you really want to have these best interests at heart hmm it starts to become a conversation of what's getting Yeah Right
is there something else that would help you be more productive and if you
Darryl (31:11)
Is there something else that would help you be more productive? And if
you really had his best interest at heart, you might have other solutions or suggestions that you could offer to him.
Jason Hull (31:17)
If you really have his best interest in art, you might have other solutions or suggestions that you can offer
him. Yeah. And I have, yeah. He doesn't want to do the sales. So I said, you need to get a salesperson and you need to hire. Yeah. Yeah. So, Well, Darryl, I really appreciate this. This is really interesting. I'd like to stay connected. think, I think your, you know, your message and I would be very interested in reading your book. What's the name of your book if people are looking?
Darryl (31:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
It's called building trust, exceptional leadership in the times of uncertainty.
Jason Hull (31:48)
That's good for today. Yeah, we're living what a lot are calling the post trust era.
Darryl (31:49)
Yeah.
Trust levels are the lowest we've ever measured. And if you think about the model that I proposed, our vulnerability hasn't really gone down, but our uncertainty is bouncing all over the place. it makes asking people to trust us just a little more hard, a little more difficult than it has been in the past.
Jason Hull (32:01)
Yeah
Yeah, I think one good final question is how do you perceive trust being impacted by AI? Because a lot of people are trying to leverage AI, use AI. They're pretending that it's them that did something and they're using AI. What do you see for the future of trust related to this AI revolution that we're going through right now? I think it's going to be an extreme challenge. think social media has caused problems to start with. Yeah.
Darryl (32:29)
I think it's going to be an extreme challenge. think social media has caused problems to start with. ⁓
Our relationships tend to be a mile wide and an inch deep now. They're not as resilient as they used to be. Jason, when I grew up, I could be an idiot multiple times in a row and people were stuck with me. And so I learned. Now people have this feeling that if I make one mistake, I'm done.
Jason Hull (32:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Disposable friendships and relationships.
Darryl (32:56)
And I'll just find somebody, some other group to hang out with on the internet. we need to be more right and isolated and lonely and talking to AI, like it's a real human being. And so I think we need to be more intentional than we've ever been about building trust. And that's, that's why I do the work I do.
Jason Hull (33:00)
And then we end up in these echo chambers for sure. Right. And isolated at moment, not in AI, like it's really easy to be. Okay, yeah. And so I think we need to be more intentional than we've ever been to build trust. Yeah, yeah. And that's why I do the
work I do. Yes, I think it's more valuable than ever. more valuable than ever, yeah.
Darryl (33:21)
I try to teach people how to build stronger relationships. Yeah.
Jason Hull (33:27)
Yeah, and I think it'll become more valuable. I think that our failings and flaws as human will become more valuable because we're imperfect. And I think that humanity is going to be, or just our humanness is gonna be a premium. It's gonna be a premium experience to be able to be with a human. And so I think that relationships will matter even more and trust certainly.
Darryl (33:50)
Yeah.
Jason Hull (33:52)
And there's a lot of people that are trying to eliminate the need for trust. It's like forced blockchain stuff and tech and things are defined and there's no way they could steal, or lie. And like we force it so we can eliminate the need for trust. And maybe there's a little progress that can be made that way, but I think for sure trust will be a premium. Yeah, it's, it may eliminate.
Darryl (33:58)
Yeah.
Yeah, it may eliminate our need for
trust, it doesn't eliminate the need for us to be able to build trust with others. We still need to engage with other human beings.
Jason Hull (34:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, well said. Well, Darryl, how can people get in touch with you or find out more about what you do? Tell us a little bit about what your offerings are and how they can get in touch.
Darryl (34:23)
Yeah.
Right.
So I offer executive coaching, consulting, uh, training and development, uh, workshops, those kinds of things. Uh, the book was written because I don't want what I know to go away if I do. and they can find me on my website at trust unlimited.com. Uh, there's a blog section there with plenty of articles and topics like rebuilding trust with the police or.
Jason Hull (34:45)
because I don't
And they can find me on my website at trustunlimited.com. There's a blog section there with plenty of articles and topics like rebuilding trust with the police or
Darryl (35:01)
Trust in parenting or trust in leadership. ⁓ I have a podcast called the imperfect cafe. ⁓
Jason Hull (35:02)
trusting parenting or trusting leadership. I have a podcast called The Uperca Cafe.
Darryl (35:09)
and they can reach out to me directly by email at Darryl at trust unlimited.com.
Jason Hull (35:09)
and they can reach out to me directly by email, darryl.trusthumbln.com.
Perfect. Darryl, it's been a pleasure. Appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks for the opportunity. Absolutely. All right. So for those of you that enjoyed the show and you maybe have felt stuck or stagnant and you want to take your property management business to the next level, you can reach out to us at doorgrow.com.
Darryl (35:22)
Thanks for the opportunity, Jason.
Jason Hull (35:37)
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