Ezra Klein, a prominent journalist and New York Times columnist, joins Derek Thompson, an Atlantic staff writer, and Dan Wang, a research fellow and author. They dive into how China serves as a rhetorical tool in U.S. politics, and the oversimplifications in understanding Chinese development. The trio discusses the 'abundance agenda' for policy change, navigating U.S.-China tensions, and the role of podcasting in shaping modern media narratives. They highlight the importance of nuanced political discourse and explore ways to foster effective communication.
The U.S. industrial policy resurgence is heavily influenced by the competitive dynamics with China, driving bipartisan legislative support for domestic industries.
Many U.S. policymakers misunderstand China's societal structure and industrial strategies, leading to oversimplified narratives and potentially misguided policies.
A shift towards collaboration and open curiosity about China's growth can foster mutual learning and improve industrial strategies for both nations.
Deep dives
Industrial Policy and Its Connection to China
The resurgence of industrial policy in America is closely linked to the influence of China, viewed as a competitive force rather than merely a rhetorical device. This complex relationship has fostered bipartisan efforts to revitalize American manufacturing and policy responses motivated by feelings of envy over China's rapid development. The belief that China can achieve what America struggles with has catalyzed legislative support for enhancing domestic industries. Removing China from the equation would significantly diminish the push for a reinvigorated industrial policy in the U.S.
Understanding the American Perspective on China
There is a significant knowledge gap among U.S. policymakers regarding China's societal structure and industrial strategies, resulting in misconceptions and potentially misguided policies. Rather than fully grasping China's methodologies, there's a tendency to analyze China through an American lens, leading to oversimplified narratives. A nuanced view acknowledges the intricate challenges that both nations face and the unique contexts that drive their respective policy decisions. Exploring this depth can illuminate pathways for more effective domestic and foreign policies.
Comparative Envy Between Superpowers
The admiration some segments of the American right have for China reflects a deeper envy along with a desire to emulate its achievements. American political discourse is increasingly preoccupied with catching up to China in various domains, particularly manufacturing, which can obscure the strengths inherent in the American system. This fixation may invite risks such as compromising the U.S. financial power in the pursuit of manufacturing dominance. Reevaluating this perspective can help policymakers leverage existing American strengths while responsibly addressing competitive pressures from China.
The Historical Context of Political Orders
The evolution of American political orders is shaped by the interplay of internal conflicts and external threats, reminiscent of historical events like the Great Depression and the Cold War. Current political challenges require a synthesis between past lessons from New Deal liberalism and contemporary neoliberalism amidst the decline of the neoliberal order. This synthesis seeks to address modern issues like housing scarcity and clean energy production, which require a more proactive government role. These historical frameworks can guide policymakers in designing effective responses to today's complex societal challenges.
A Call for Open Curiosity in Policy
Engaging with China's growth and innovation should be driven by open curiosity rather than solely through a lens of competition, embracing the potential for mutual learning. This perspective emphasizes understanding how different political frameworks shape infrastructure development and societal design in both nations. Rather than employing a hostile approach, fostering collaborative avenues for knowledge exchange could benefit both economies. Adopting this attitude encourages a constructive examination of how each nation can improve its industrial strategies without succumbing to detrimental rivalry.
Does anybody really understand China? Could America pursue an abundance agenda without the threat of the PRC? Can podcasters change the world?
To discuss, ChinaTalk interviewed Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, who need no introduction, as well as Dan Wang, who has written beautiful annual letters and is back in the US as a research fellow at Kotkin’s Hoover History Lab. He has an excellent book called Breakneck coming out this August, but we’re saving that show for a little later this year.
Today, our conversation covers…
The use of China as a rhetorical device in US domestic discourse,
Oversimplified aspects of Chinese development, and why the bipartisan consensus surrounding Beijing might fail to produce a coherent strategy,
The abundance agenda and technocratic vs prophetic strategies for policy change,
How to conceptualize political actors complexly, including unions, corporations, and environmental groups,
The value of podcasting and strategies for positively impacting the modern media environment.
Outtro Music: Recomposed by Max Richter, I went with a deep cut Autumn 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUEeqvp_BrQ
