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The Seen and the Unseen - hosted by Amit Varma
Ep 392: Biju Rao Won't Bow to Conventional Wisdom
Jul 29, 2024
Vijayendra (Biju) Rao, an innovative economist, emphasizes the necessity of integrating sociology and anthropology into economic analysis. He passionately critiques conventional methodologies, advocating for a more human-centered approach to understanding societal challenges. The conversation touches on the importance of cognitive empathy in research, the interplay of democracy and community participation, and rethinking the notions of well-being and welfare. Biju also shares personal anecdotes that shape his unique perspective on economics and the role of mentorship in academic journeys.
03:54:19
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Quick takeaways
- Vijayendra Rao emphasizes the necessity for economics to incorporate insights from sociology and anthropology to better understand human complexities.
- He critiques the reliance on data in isolation, arguing for qualitative research that captures personal narratives and lived experiences.
- Rao advocates for genuine community participation in development, highlighting the difference between organic involvement and superficial government-initiated programs.
- His experiences in fieldwork underline the importance of empathy in research, particularly regarding sensitive issues like domestic violence.
- The podcast explores the subjective nature of well-being, encouraging research methodologies that reflect individual aspirations and values through open-ended interviews.
- Rao calls for a reevaluation of academic success metrics, advocating for meaningful societal impact alongside traditional scholarly publications.
Deep dives
The Complexity of Human Behavior
The podcast discusses the nature of academic disciplines like economics, sociology, and anthropology, highlighting that they study people, whose behaviors are often complex and influenced by both nature and nurture. Scholars tend to simplify their subjects in order to understand them, which can lead to dogmas that overlook the intricacies of human experiences. The speaker emphasizes the need to challenge these dogmas for the sake of curiosity and knowledge, stressing that understanding humanity is vital. Hence, the idea is that the emphasis must not solely lie on academic methodologies but also on recognizing and respecting human stories.
The Importance of Interdisciplinary Dialogue
The conversation features Vijayendra Rao, a lead economist at the World Bank, who expresses frustration over the lack of communication between economists, anthropologists, and sociologists. He believes that data alone is insufficient to grasp the full picture of economic and social issues, as human narratives and individual experiences also deserve attention. Rao argues for a more integrated approach, where different disciplines can collaborate and share insights, ultimately leading to a richer understanding of societal challenges. His interdisciplinary background and experiences shape his perspective on the necessity of blending quantitative and qualitative research.
The Role of Experiences in Research
Rao shares his transformative fieldwork experiences, where he witnessed domestic violence firsthand while researching marital practices. This exposure highlighted the gulf between statistical data and the realities faced by individuals. He contends that qualitative research done with empathy is crucial for grasping the nuances surrounding sensitive subjects like domestic violence, as it allows researchers to reflect on lived experiences rather than merely relying on numbers. Rao's experiences assert the need for researchers to immerse themselves in the environments they study to foster understanding and sensitivity.
Rethinking Development Interventions
The podcast critiques conventional development practices, particularly those that are imposed top-down without consideration for local contexts. Rao emphasizes that genuine participation in development cannot simply be induced through government or donor-initiated programs; it is an organic process rooted in the community's needs and aspirations. The distinction between organic and induced participation suggests that the former fosters empowerment while the latter often leads to superficial involvement. Rao advocates for policies that encourage local voices and ensure that community-led initiatives flourish, highlighting that development should stem from the grassroots level.
The Nuts and Bolts of Participatory Democracy
The discussion points toward the success of participatory democracy in grassroots movements, contrasting it with the challenges in development policies. Rao mentions the National Rural Livelihoods Mission (NRLM) in India, which successfully engaged women through self-help groups, fostering collective action. This initiative exemplifies how bottom-up approaches can yield sustainable outcomes when local people are actively involved in decision-making processes. By focusing on the capacity to organize and advocate for their needs, participants can achieve significant socio-economic changes that challenge the status quo.
Understanding Well-being and Aspirations
The podcast delves into the subjective nature of well-being and aspirations, emphasizing the need for research that reflects individual experiences and values. Rao and his colleagues aim to understand what well-being means to different people by conducting open-ended interviews instead of relying solely on traditional surveys. This approach allows for a richer comprehension of how aspirations shape an individual's life choices and overall happiness. By grounding their inquiry in real human stories, researchers can better inform policies that genuinely enhance the quality of life.
Cognitive Empathy and Its Necessity
Cognitive empathy is presented as a critical tool for researchers to understand the complexities of human lives. Rao argues that merely relying on quantitative data limits the understanding of societal issues and reduces people's experiences to numbers. By emphasizing empathy and the narratives of those affected, researchers can gain deeper insights into the realities that underpin the data. This approach reinforces that addressing social challenges requires exploring both the statistical and human dimensions of problems.
Ethics in Research and the Role of Academics
The importance of ethics in research is underscored, particularly regarding sensitive issues such as domestic violence and poverty. Rao critiques the reliance on data that may inadvertently harm individuals being studied, advocating for ethical considerations in research methodology. He points out that academics must take responsibility for how their work impacts real lives and communities, ensuring that findings genuinely contribute to positive societal changes. This calls for scholars to adopt reflexive practices that respect the voices and experiences of those they study.
The Evolution of Academic Incentives
The conversation reflects on the shifting dynamics within the academic world, where the focus has increasingly turned to publishing in prestigious journals. Rao notes that this emphasis can lead to superficial research that fails to engage with real-world issues. He argues for a reevaluation of how academic success is measured, suggesting that impact on society should be equally prioritized alongside publications. By promoting a climate that values meaningful contributions to knowledge and social well-being, the academic community can better address pressing global challenges.
Interdisciplinary Approaches to Global Issues
Rao advocates for a more integrated approach to addressing global issues, recognizing the interconnections between different disciplines such as economics, sociology, and anthropology. He believes that interdisciplinary collaboration is essential for developing solutions that are culturally relevant and context-specific. At the same time, Rao acknowledges the challenges posed by the modern research landscape, where academic silos can hinder the sharing of knowledge. By fostering a spirit of cooperation and open dialogue among scholars from various backgrounds, it is possible to generate more innovative and impactful responses to complex societal problems.
The Future of Development Practice
Moving forward, Rao envisions a redefined role for development practitioners that emphasizes local knowledge and community involvement. He believes that harnessing the power of grassroots movements and encouraging citizen participation can lead to more sustainable and effective development outcomes. By creating an environment that allows local voices to be heard and respected, practitioners can work towards alleviating poverty and enhancing the quality of life for marginalized communities. Thus, there is a clear call to action for development agencies to shift their focus from top-down approaches to empowering communities from within.
He's an economist who cares more about people than numbers -- and he thinks his field needs more sociology and anthropology in it. Vijayendra (Biju) Rao joins Amit Varma in episode 392 of The Seen and the Unseen to talk about what makes him angry, what drives him forward and what brings him peace. (FOR FULL LINKED SHOW NOTES, GO TO SEENUNSEEN.IN.) Also check out: 1. Vijayendra (Biju) Rao on Twitter, Google Scholar, The World Bank and his own website. 2. Biju Rao's blog at the World Bank. 3. Localizing Development: Does Participation Work? -- Ghazala Mansuri and Vijayendra Rao. 4. Oral Democracy: Deliberation in Indian Village Assemblies -- Paromita Sanyal and Vijayendra Rao. 5. Can Economics Become More Reflexive? -- Vijayendra Rao. 6. Vamsha Vriksha -- Girish Karnad. 7. ‘I want absolute commitment to our gharana’: A tribute to Rajshekhar Mansur and his music -- Vijayendra Rao. 8. The Life and Work of Ashwini Deshpande — Episode 298 of The Seen and the Unseen. 9. Two Hundred and Fifty-Thousand Democracies: A Review of Village Government in India -- Siddharth George, Vijaendra Rao and MR Sharan. 10. Last Among Equals : Power Caste And Politics In Bihar's Villages -- MR Sharan. 11. Lant Pritchett Is on Team Prosperity — Episode 379 of The Seen and the Unseen. 12. National Development Delivers: And How! And How? — Lant Pritchett. 13. The Perils of Partial Attribution: Let’s All Play for Team Development — Lant Pritchett. 14. The Rising Price of Husbands: A Hedonic Analysis of Dowry Increases in Rural India -- Vijayendra Rao. 15. The Life and Times of Jerry Pinto — Episode 314 of The Seen and the Unseen. 16. Shephali Bhatt Is Searching for the Incredible -- Episode 391 of The Seen and the Unseen. 17. Jiddu Krishnamurti on Wikipedia, Britannica and Amazon. 18. Biju Rao listens to Jiddu Krishnamurthy. 19. Ben Hur -- William Wyler. 20. Trade, Institutions and Ethnic Tolerance: Evidence from South Asia -- Saumitra Jha. 21. Memories and Things — Episode 195 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Aanchal Malhotra). 22. Remnants of a Separation — Aanchal Malhotra. 23. Deliberative Democracy -- Jon Elster. 24. A Life in Indian Politics — Episode 149 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Jayaprakash Narayan). 25. Subhashish Bhadra on Our Dysfunctional State — Episode 333 of The Seen and the Unseen. 26. Caged Tiger: How Too Much Government Is Holding Indians Back — Subhashish Bhadra. 27. Urban Governance in India — Episode 31 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Shruti Rajagopalan). 28. Understanding Gandhi. Part 1: Mohandas — Episode 104 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ram Guha). 29. Understanding Gandhi. Part 2: Mahatma — Episode 105 of The Seen and the Unseen (w Ram Guha). 30. Accelerating India’s Development — Karthik Muralidharan. 31. The Added Value of Local Democracy -- Abhishek Arora, Siddharth George, Vijayendra Rao and MR Sharan. 32. Some memories of VKRV Rao -- Vijayendra Rao. 33. The Foundation Series — Isaac Asimov. 34. Lawrence of Arabia -- David Lean. 35. Gandhi -- Richard Attenborough. 36. The Story of My Experiments with Truth -- Mohandas Gandhi. 37. Bhagavad Gita on Wikipedia and Amazon. 38. KT Achaya on Amazon. 39. The Emergency: A Personal History — Coomi Kapoor. 40. My Varied Life in Management: A Short Memoir -- SL Rao. 41. The Incredible Curiosities of Mukulika Banerjee — Episode 276 of The Seen and the Unseen. 42. Ram Guha Writes a Letter to a Friend -- Episode 371 of The Seen and the Unseen. 43. Terror as a Bargaining Instrument : A Case Study of Dowry Violence in Rural India -- Francis Bloch and Vijayendra Rao. 44. Domestic Violence and Intra-Household Resource Allocation in Rural India: An Exercise in Participatory Econometrics -- Vijayendra Rao. 45. Immanuel Kant’s Categorical Imperative. 46. Narrative Economics -- Robert J Shiller. 47. Culture and Public Action -- Edited by Vijayendra Rao and Michael Walton. 48. The Capacity to Aspire -- Arjun Appadurai. 49. Aspiration: The Agency of Becoming -- Agnes Callard. 50. Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind -- Tom Holland. 51. PV Sukhatme in EPW. 52. India Needs Decentralization -- Episode 47 of Everything if Everything. 53. Deliberative Inequality: A Text-As-Data Study of India’s Village Assemblies -- Ramya Parthasarathy, Vijayendra Rao and Nethra Palaniswamy. 54. A Method to Scale Up Interpretive Qualitative Analysis with An Application to Aspirations among Refugees and Hosts in Bangladesh -- Julian Ashwin, Vijayendra Rao, Monica Biradavolu, Aditya Chhabra, Afsana Khan, Arshia Haque and Nandini Krishnan. 55. Using Large-Language Models for Qualitative Analysis Can Introduce Serious Bias -- Julian Ashwin, Aditya Chhabra and Vijayendra Rao. 56. This Be The Verse — Philip Larkin. 57. Audacious Hope: An Archive of How Democracy is Being Saved in India -- Indrajit Roy. 58. Poverty and the Quest for Life -- Bhrigupati Singh. 59. Recasting Culture to Undo Gender: A Sociological Analysis of Jeevika in Rural Bihar, India -- Paromita Sanyal, Vijayendra Rao and Shruti Majumdar. 60. We Are Poor but So Many -- Ela Bhatt. 61. Premature Imitation and India’s Flailing State — Shruti Rajagopalan & Alexander Tabarrok. 62. James Wolfensohn in Wikipedia and The World Bank. 63. Arati Kumar-Rao Took a One-Way Ticket -- Episode 383 of The Seen and the Unseen. 64. Marginlands: Indian Landscapes on the Brink — Arati Kumar-Rao. 65. Amitav Ghosh on Amazon. 66. Adam Smith: An Enlightened Life -- Nicholas Phillipson. 67. Elinor Ostrom on Amazon, Britannica, Wikipedia and EconLib. 68. Jane Mansbridge on Amazon, Wikipedia, and Google Scholar. 69. Albert O Hirschman on Amazon and Wikipedia. 70. Mughal-e-Azam -- K Asif. 71. Samskara -- Pattabhirama Reddy. 72. The Wire -- David Simon. 73. Deadwood -- David Milch. 74. Biju Rao on Democracy, Deliberation, and Development -- the Ideas of India podcast with Shruti Rajagopalan. Biju Rao's Specially curated music recommendations: 1. The Senior Dagar Brothers (Moinuddin & Aminuddin Dagar) performing (Komal Rishab) Asavari and Kamboji. 2. Raghunath Panigrahi performing Ashtapadi from the Geeta Govinda and Lalita Lavanga. 3. Amir Khan performing Lalit and Jog. 4. Vilayat Khan performing Sanjh Saravali and Hameer. 5. Ravi Shankar performing Jaijaiwanti and Tilak Shyam (full concert) and Durga. 6. Faiyaz Khan performing Raga Darbari and Raga Des. 7. N Rajam performing a full concert with Gorakh Kalyan, Sawani Barwa, Hamir, Malkauns. 8. Kumar Gandharva performing Tulsidas – Ek Darshan and Surdas – Ek Darshan. 9. Bhimsen Joshi performing Ragas Chhaya and Chhaya Malhar & Jo Bhaje Hari Ko Sada – Bhajan in Raga Bhairavi (original recording from 1960). The Jaipur-Atrauli Gharana: 1. Mallikarjun Mansur in a guided Listening Session by Irfan Zuberi, and performing Basanti Kedar and Tilak Kamod. 2. Kesarbai Kerkar performing Lalit and Bhairavi. 3. Moghubai Kurdikar performing Kedar and Suddha Nat. 4. Kishori Amonkar performing Bhimpalas and Bhoop(ali). 5. Some performances by Rajshekhar Mansur are linked in Biju Rao's piece on him. Karnatic Music: 1. TM Krishna performing Krishna Nee Begane Baaro, Yamuna Kalyani (Yaman Kalyan) and Nalinakanthi (closest Hindustani equivalent is Tilak Kamod). 2. MD Ramanathan performing Bhavayami – Raga Malika and Samaja Vara Gamana – Ragam Hindolam (Malkauns). 3. Aruna Sairam performing a full concert. 4. Madurai Mani Iyer performing Taaye Yoshade. 5. MS Subbulakshmi performing a full Concert from 1966 and Bhaja Govindam (Ragamalika). 6. TR Mahalingam performing Swara Raga Sudha – Shankarabharanam. Jugalbandis: 1. Ali Akbar Khan and Vilayat Khan performing Marwa. 2. Ali Akbar Khan and Ravi Shankar performing Jaijaiwanti. 3. N Rajam with her brother TN Krishnan performing Raga Hamsadhwani. Amit’s newsletter is active again. Subscribe right away to The India Uncut Newsletter! It’s free! Amit Varma and Ajay Shah have launched a new video podcast. Check out Everything is Everything on YouTube. Check out Amit’s online course, The Art of Clear Writing. Episode art: ‘The Iconoclast' by Simahina.
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