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We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for another Indulgence Gospel.

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Episode 157 Transcript

Virginia

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

Corinne

And I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.

Virginia

We have so many good questions this month. A lot of parenting food questions. I think maybe because I just ran the lunchbox piece in the newsletter it’s on everybody’s minds. But also, as usual, some fat fashion stuff. Clogs are coming up later. And Ozempic, because obviously. So it’s gonna be a good one.

Virginia

So before we dive in, how are you doing? What’s new with you, Corinne?

Corinne

I’m doing well. One thing that’s new with me is: I just signed up to do a powerlifting meet. So I’m feeling nervous. 

Virginia

Well, yeah. Is this like a competition thing, where people come and watch? 

Corinne

I think so. I mean, obviously, I’ve never done something like this before. It’s in Albuquerque, and it’s being run by my gym. And it’s all women’s. 

Virginia

That sounds very cool. 

Corinne

I’m just having a little of like, Oh, what did I do? Let’s see. Wow. Am I going to be the most amateur, weakest person there? I might.

Virginia

But you’ll still be super strong and amazing. Because the weakest person at a powerlifting competition is still the strongest person in most other rooms.

Corinne

That’s a good point. And I think one great thing about lifting is, it’s really more about your own goals and competing with yourself. But still.

Virginia

So is it like whoever lifts the most is the winner?

Corinne

So my understanding is very loose, but I know there are different weight classes. So you compete against people who are roughly around the same size?.

Virginia

 Interesting. Okay.

Corinne

And then I think it’s a cumulative weight of how much you lift, like combined squat, deadlift, bench press. 

Virginia

Wow, that’s so cool. Julia Turshen recently did one of these.

Corinne

I feel like I was slightly influenced by Julia Turshen.

Virginia

Did she enable you? Julia, good job! The pictures and videos she posted of it looked super exciting. And it looked like a very professional athletic setting. I would be intimidated for sure.

Corinne

The other thing that I’m sure we’ll end up talking about again, but you have to wear a singlet which is like, where am I gonna find a singlet? And knee socks.

Virginia

Knee socks! Why knee socks? 

Corinne

I’m like, oh my God, I’m never gonna find knee socks that fit me, but I’m trying to figure out if I can wear Universal Standard body shorts as a singlet, because I already have one of those. 

Virginia

That feels like a great solution. 

Corinne

It’s singlet-esque? But I don’t know what the actual requirements are.

Virginia

Girlfriend Collective also has a shorts body suit thing.

Corinne

I should look into that. 

Virginia

But I feel like you should be able to work with what you have. Especially for your first one. Once you’re a pro and doing this all the time, you’ll get, like, something with rhinestones. 

Corinne

Once I’m a sponsored Olympic athlete. Yes.

Virginia

I love that like we’re getting to follow along on the journey. Obviously we’re going to need another installment on this afterwards.

Corinne

Okay, yes. And just to be clear, the meet isn’t until July, so, so I have a lot of time to think about it.

Virginia

I’m just saying though. A few months ago, you were recommending Casey Johnston and her couch-to-barbell program. And you were like, “I’m just using a broomstick.”

Corinne

It’s true. 

Virginia

And now!

Corinne

It’s true and now I’m lifting actual pounds.

Virginia

Very, very cool. 

Corinne

Yeah, what’s new with you? 

Virginia

I feel like what’s new with me is that I am surviving, not thriving a little bit. So this is going to come out in mid-April. So we’ll be two weeks out from book launch. So I will either be better or I will be way worse. I mean, having had two children, it’s sort of similar to the last month of pregnancy when you’re like, it’s all you can think about, this thing is happening, but you have no control over it. I mean, at least with the book, you know, like the date it’s coming. Which with pregnancy, they have yet to really figure out, unless you’re scheduling. But I counted it up this morning, I have recorded 18 podcasts so far. Of other people’s podcasts. Like for talking about the book. 18 people’s podcasts. 

Corinne

Oh whoa. That’s wild.

Virginia

And like, seven of them were in the last week and a half? So I feel like my voice is hanging on by a thread. And I’m just getting a little mush-brained about it. I need to step back a little.

Obviously, I am super grateful. I love that people want me to talk about the book. I love that people are excited about the book. I cannot wait for it to be out. But it’s just at a point where there are a lot of details. Like, review all the press release materials, review the marketing plan…. I forgot we were recording today. And it’s not the first thing I’ve forgotten. Like, I forgot the kids had a dentist appointment. We made it, but I’m just like, my brain is holding too many pieces of information. Some things are getting dropped. I’m just coming in with a sort of scattered energy. But I’ve got the Throat Coat Tea that I’m living on right now. And we’re gonna do it! 

Corinne

Do you have any upcoming book promo stuff that you’re really excited to do?

Virginia

Well, I did an interview yesterday that I can’t talk about yet, because I don’t think it will be out by the time this launches. 

Corinne

Top secret. 

Virginia

There are two top secret ones that will be coming out in the week or two after this podcast episode. And they’re both very exciting. And I will say that I was very happy with my outfit for one. So that was good. And the other one the outfit matters less because it is not visual. I will say no more! 

And yeah, that part’s been fun, actually figuring out clothes for like the book tour Dacy has been helping me and maybe some time we’ll do a follow up about finding clothes for this. Because it’s a very specific level of, how dressy do you want to be versus comfortable? So maybe there will be an essay of what I wore for the book tour.

Corinne

I would love to read that.

Virginia

Okay, so we’re going to do some questions! The first one is a hot take opportunity. This came in over Instagram multiple times. People would like to know what we saw of Jia Tolentino’s Ozempic piece in The New Yorker.

Corinne

Okay, well, now is my time to be embarrassed when I admit that I read it really lightly. I did a really light skim sort of read, and was like, seems fine. And then I’ve seen everyone else being like, “This article is horrible.” And I’ve been like, wow, I really need to revisit that and find out why people are so upset.

Virginia

I’m glad to hear people are saying they’re upset! I felt like no one was talking about it at all for a little bit. And I was like, what is happening? I feel like the New York magazine piece came out, which I wrote about and that was not great. And then this piece comes out two weeks later, and I’m just like, why? Why did it come out? It’s the same piece really. 

And I want to be clear that I love Jia’s work. I loved Trick Mirror. I think she writes phenomenal stuff. The piece she did on Angela Garbes last year was just incredible. And this was… not that. It is very much centering the story on thin people who would like to be thinner if they take Ozempic. There’s one fat person interviewed for the story. And, you know, of course, every fat person is entitled to their own experience of fatness. But her quotes just reinforced so many stereotypes. She talks about wanting to lose weight because she feels like she can’t hike or run at her current size. And it’s like, come on. We can do better. 

Corinne

If you want to hike and run, you could work on hiking and running?

Virginia

Right! There are so many fat hikers and runners on Instagram. 

Corinne

I thought the compounding pharmacy thing was kind of interesting.

Virginia

Oh, like explaining how sort of like loosey goosey it is and getting the drugs? 

Corinne

Because I’ve seen a lot of people on TikTok being like, I’m getting this patented drug from a compounding pharmacy. And I’m like, wait, is that real? Like, what is that? So I thought that part was interesting.

Virginia

It was interesting. But when she goes through the process of getting it herself, I always just worry—this is the eating disorder handbook stuff.

Corinne 

True true. You’re literally telling people how to do it. 

Virginia

And I get that that’s not hard to find. We all have Google. But is that something The New Yorker should be doing? Does The New Yorker need to teach us how to get our weight loss drugs? I don’t know. I feel like the general trend in the Ozempic coverage–And this is not just Jia, not just New York Magazine. But by and large, this coverage has this underlying question of: If we have now found a silver bullet that will make people thin, does that mean we can just forget about anti fat bias? And that is so dark. We cannot just say, now that we have a way to make everybody thin, it’s okay to hate fat people, because we can just make them thin.

Corinne

That’s a good point.

Virginia

I’m not judging anyone’s individual decisions about this. But this larger discourse is not helpful. That’s my hot, grouchy take. 

Corinne

That’s the hot take! I would love to know also, if any listeners have strong feelings about it? 

Virginia

Yes. Comments are open!

Corinne

Okay, the next question is:

Q: The one thing I can’t shake as a new mom is worrying about making my daughter fat. How do I shake that? I grew up fat and it was hard. I want better for her. But does that mean dieting?

Virginia

This is a very understandable fear. But no, it does not mean dieting. 

Corinne

I want to validate this parent’s worries, because you're coming from a place where it sounds like you struggled a lot. And you don’t want your kids to struggle, and that totally makes sense.

Virginia

I think what I’m stuck on is, “I grew up fat and it was hard.” Yes, absolutely. Not denying that. But was it hard because you were fat? Or was it hard because the world made fat not okay?

And so, this is kind of the Ozempic thing, right? Is the answer to erase fatness by which we mean erase fat people? Or is the answer systemic change and unlearning this bias on a personal level? But I know, that is a terrible question. You cannot make all those systemic changes by yourself. That is not doable. So it is really, really hard.

Corinne

The one thing that’s sort of not explicit in this question is whether the kid is actually fat.

Virginia

She says she’s a new mom. So I’m thinking she has a baby. So she probably doesn’t know? 

Corinne

Because my next thought was, you could talk to your kid about it being hard. But maybe not for a newborn.

Virginia

But maybe start now! Get the conversation going.

Corinne

Start thinking about it. You can talk to yourself about it. I think now might be a time to start therapy. 

Virginia

Therapy, always a great option.

You are not going to make your daughter thin or fat. You don’t actually control her body size. The number of factors that go into determining body sizes is this sort of endless and murky list, and no one really knows what are the largest drivers. But how you feed her, and how much you make her run around are not the largest drivers of her body size. And putting all your energy there is only going to cause damage, which you yourself probably know, because when you say it was hard, I’m guessing that some kind of childhood dieting might have been a piece of that.

So I feel like we need to let you off the hook of the “I’m gonna make her fat.” She may be fat. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not your fault. And what she really needs is for you to unconditionally accept her body.

Corinne

I also think this could be a really good time to think of some advocacy you could do, whether that’s looking into school policies about bullying or even at the legislative level, like laws about anti fat bias. Or just trying to be an advocate in your community for body liberation or fat liberation? 

Virginia

I love that. And I just wanna say this is hard. It is really unfair that that is asked of us. But that is where we are on this issue. And we’re only going to make progress if we all approach it from that perspective. 

Corinne

And I want to reiterate: The thing about bias is, the solution is never to get rid of the people we’re biased against. Or to change them somehow.

Virginia

Right. So it’s okay. Maybe your daughter is going to be fat and how are you going to support her and advocate for her and make your home a safe space for her body?

Corinne

All right, I’m going to read the next one too: 

Q: I am trying very hard to be very neutral about food with my son who’s four years old. From the start, I have not labeled foods as good or bad. I have not restricted access to sweets or desserts. But lately, I’ve started questioning this. I’ve always felt pressure because I am not able to manage cooking meals. So from the start, my son was fed using a grazing technique where I would put together various foods and he would eat what he wanted. As he has gotten older, he is more specific in his tastes in a way that feels normal to me, pretty much macaroni and cheese or similar foods most of the time. There are other things he will eat, but I feel a lot of grief about my inability to get it together and provide regular hot balanced meals, also for myself. 

Recently, I’ve been trying to limit his intake of sweets just a little bit and it feels like a backside but I’ve been confused. Only two cookies and even suggesting he eats something before he gets the cookies. This week’s mailbag episode made me reorient when you talked about not doing this and reminded me why I wanted to avoid this restriction based language. And I admit the reason I started thinking about this was twofold. I filled out a research survey that made me admit a lot of things about our household eating that I feel low level guilty about and I felt the sting of perceived societal shaming.

And my son started talking about treats. I was a bit miffed as categorizing something as a treat, as opposed to food which he labeled the rest as, was something I was trying to avoid. Then I realized this could have come from daycare television, the fact that we give the dog treats, and so I am overreacting. I find it’s so hard to be consistent in my parenting in many avenues and food encroaches on that too. Giving food as a reward for example, this is something I do for myself, and I like it. But perhaps it is part of the problem of saving food for a special occasion as opposed to having it because you want it.

I need some perspective, please. Is it ever useful to direct a child to a more balanced diet as opposed to just modeling it? I do not mean telling them that specific foods help your eyes. What a relief to see that debunked, but more that many foods are yummy. And basically some form of kid specific ‘everything in moderation.’

Virginia

The first thing I want to say is: You are doing a great job. You are feeding your child. It does not matter that you are not cooking. And that the food is not hot or homemade. It does not matter at all. You are meeting your son’s needs by making sure he is fed every day, and making sure that he has enough to eat in order to grow. That’s the most important thing and you’re doing it. You’re winning! You’re doing great. 

And this really drives home for me the stigma we have around the idea that you can’t feed kids processed foods, you have to cook meals. All of this is so unhelpful because there are just so many reasons why that model of family meals is not a good fit. There could be disability issues. There could be cost issues, time bandwidth issues, all sorts of hurdles. There could also just be that you don’t like cooking. You can still be a good parent and not like cooking. It’s not a requirement. SoI just want to encourage you to take some of the shame away. 

Corinne

 That’s a great place to start. I totally agree. I was thinking about the study that you mention in FAT TALK about how it doesn’t matter what you’re eating and it much more matters that kids are just eating. 

Virginia

Oh, that’s a quote from Katherine Zavodni, who’s one of my favorite pediatric dietitians. So teaser for everyone who hasn’t read the book yet, but it’s a quote that I want to put on our fridge! She says, “The most important thing about good nutrition is making sure kids have enough to eat.” Because if you have enough to eat, all the minutiae of micronutrients, and macronutrients tends to work itself out. 

Now, obviously, there are kids with severe food issues like feeding disorders, allergies or other medical conditions where it may be more complicated. Their nutritional needs may be more specific. But if your kid is not dealing with one of those things, and has enough to eat on any given day, you have done your job as a parent.

Corinne

And you also talked about the studies on family meals, right? And how the benefits come from eating together rather than making sure it’s a home-cooked meal. 

Virginia

I’m so glad you brought that up. All the research on family dinners, which talks about how important they are for kids’ overall well-being and health—it’s because families are spending time together. So you could do that around breakfast, you could do that around a snack, you could do that in ways that have nothing to do with food. Like maybe you regularly have a long car ride to commute to school and work together. And that’s when you talk and catch up on your day. Kids need connected time with their caregivers. Food is just one helpful way to do it.

Corinne

It doesn’t matter if you are eating snack plates, or macaroni. 

Virginia

Some of my most connected meals with my kids are when we’re eating takeout or bowls of Cheerios for dinner! Because everyone is relaxed and you can focus on each other. And you’re not in this place of, “I put all this work into this meal and nobody likes it.”. 

So then let’s talk about feeling like you need to limit his intake of sweets. I think you’re going there because you’re feeling ashamed about what you’re doing. So I’m hoping just lifting some of the shame lets you step back from that a little bit. 

I also think the research shows pretty clearly that requiring kids to eat in very specific ways, like micromanaging their plate by saying “you have to eat something else before you get the cookies” or “only two cookies,” does not. in the long-term, serve kids’ relationship with food. It tends to result in kids who are overly fixated on the foods that have a lot of rules around them. You’re going to find yourself in power struggles where it’s like, why only two cookies, why not three cookies, why not two and a half cookies.

Don’t feel bad that you’ve done this, because I think we all get into these sort of panic moments where we do this because we’re just struggling and it feels like the “right thing to do.” But I don’t think it will ultimately serve you or serve your child. I think modeling eating a variety of foods is the best thing we can do. And even using phrases like “balance” or “everything in moderation,” I don’t love because not every day is going to be about moderation. And that can turn into a rule. Because what is “moderation?” 

And then the last thing I’ll say is, I think we touched on this in a previous episode. But I don’t think treat needs to be a bad word. Yes, we give the dog treats. Dogs’ existences are largely treat-based, at least in my house. We give ourselves food as rewards when we’re stressed out or we need some extra comfort. When we talk about keeping all foods neutral, I think we can take it too far, to this place where it feels like we’re not supposed to have any feelings about food at all. And that is not realistic or fair, or in line with how humans interact with foods.

So we do use the word treat in our house. And this came up with the lunchbox piece because I have a category of treats on the little chart I made for Beatrix and folks were like, “I can’t believe you have a treat category.” And I realized they had a different definition of that word. If you don’t have restrictive rules around when or how much treats you can eat, then treat is a neutral word. It just means foods that feel extra fun. Just something extra fun you want to have on your plate along with your other foods. And if you’re not saying “we only eat treats once a day,” or “we only eat treats on Saturdays;” if it’s not paired with restrictive language, then it’s still keeping foods neutral. Does that make sense?

Corinne

I think especially with the lunch box example, you’re using treat as a category to make sure you’re getting a treat. That seems really positive.

Virginia

Because I want them to know that those foods are welcome in their lunchboxes. Yes.

Corinne

Or required, even! 

Virginia

None of it’s required, Corinne, they can skip the treat if they want! But it’s a part of the meal. 

Corinne

Maybe that’s a way that this person could reframe it. It feels like you’re hearing your kid say treat and thinking they’re feeling like it’s something to be restricted. When could you be like, “Let’s make sure you’re getting enough treats.”

Virginia

That’s a great re-framing. I hope this helps. This is a big question. And I can tell you’re working through a lot of big stuff. So we would like an update. Please keep us posted!

Corinne

You’re doing a great job.

Virginia

Yes. 

Corinne

I’m gonna read the next one as well. 

Q: My daughter is in fifth grade. At school she’s often given food in addition to what she brings for her lunch and snacks. Candy is handed out as an incentive. Snacks, as well as non-edible items, are available to purchase with Classroom Bucks earned for good behavior. Several days a week she has after school activities that include a good deal of snacking. For the most part, I’ve accepted that I have no control over what she eats when she’s away from me. 

However, she is regularly coming home not hungry for the dinner I’ve prepared. It’s becoming more frequent lately that she’ll snack so much at school, and at after school activities, that she will eat only a couple bites of dinner, and occasionally nothing at all. Dinners are usually meals she likes and she always has the opportunity to choose a backup option if she doesn’t. So I don’t think it’s an issue of filling up because she won’t get food she likes at dinner. She chooses and packs her own lunch and snack. We generally have a rule that if you put it on the grocery list, Mom will buy it, which is to say she has a lot of control of choice and regular access to candy and snack foods, both at home and in her lunch.

Is it diet culture to expect her to come to dinner ready to eat? Or is it valid for me to feel miffed that she’s already full? And yeah, I realize we’ll all have an off day or skip a meal once in a while. This is becoming a regular occurrence though.

Virginia

I don’t think it’s diet culture exactly. I think it’s performative parenting culture a little bit, where we are very tied to this idea that, again, the family dinner is this all-important cornerstone of the day, where we have to provide a certain kind of meal. And that it is only successful if our children eat the meal. If they participate in, and enjoy the meal. And even if we’re like, “they can choose how much they’re hungry for,” if they don’t want to eat it at all, it’s really hard.

I say this from extensive personal experience. It’s really hard to not feel like you failed because you’re like, “I just spent 40 minutes making this and you ate two bites and ran away.” 

But what I also want to say is: 9 out of 10 family dinners in my house involve one or both children eating two bites of the meal and running away. I think it’s very, very, very common at sort of all ages. And yes, it is often because they had a lot of snacks in the afternoon. Because that is when they were really hungry and needed to eat. And so my expectation that 5:30 or 6:00 pm is when we’re all going to sit down and eat this big meal together is out of line with the reality of at 3:30 or 4:30 pm, they are ravenous and need to eat. And so we’re just always going to have that mismatch and it is what it is. Nobody needs to feel bad.

Corinne

This relates back a little to the parent who’s feeling guilty about not cooking meals. It’s kind of the flip side where this parent is cooking meals and feeling bad about them.

Virginia

I also want to speak to the piece about food given out at school. I don’t love candy being handed out as an incentive in class. And that is not because I don’t want the kids eating the candy. It’s because I think it does play into making candy seem so special and coveted. And for kids who have more restrictive relationships with candy at home, I don’t feel like it’s helpful. Does that make sense? I don’t have a problem with there being a birthday party in class and everyone’s eating cupcakes or candy just being there, like if the teacher just wants to have a candy jar on their desk and kids can help themselves. But it’s layering on the messages about earning the candy that I really don’t love. Because diet culture is going to teach kids so many different ways that you have to earn your treats.

But I have not figured out a way to eradicate this practice from the American public school system. It’s a very common tactic. And I think teachers have very, very hard jobs and if handing out M&Ms for getting math problems right makes it easier to do their job? I don’t know, man, I think that’s where we are. 

Corinne

Yeah. 

Virginia

And if it’s happening in the context of, your child also has all this great regular access to candy and treats because like you said, you’re involving her in the grocery list and lunch packing and all that, then I don’t think it being handed out as an incentive is going to do that much damage.They can understand that at school, M&Ms are being given as a reward. And at home, there is a bag of M&Ms that I can just eat.

Corinne

With the teachers handing out candy as incentives, I’m worried more about the kids who are not getting candy as incentives.

Virginia

Oh, what a terrible message. That’s so sad. You did this wrong. No candy for you. It is tricky. And I mean, I don’t mind kids purchasing snacks with Classroom Bucks. That feels a little more diffuse to me. That’s giving them some independence. And after school activities should include snacks because the majority of children are starving after school. 

I think the key here is don’t demonize the way she’s eating because she’s getting her needs met. Just maybe take some pressure off yourself. If dinner is usually something she likes, if there’s an option to choose a backup option and she doesn’t, then she’s just not hungry. 

Corinne

And maybe that can take some of the pressure off dinner. Like maybe you just make a snack plate.

Virginia

Something simpler. Or make something you’re really excited to eat.

Corinne

Something you like! 

Virginia

That’s what I often do when I can tell the kids are not in like super dinner oriented phases. I’m like, Okay, then I’m picking what I want. And we also do a bedtime snack. And in fifth grade, she’s probably staying up late enough that she’s up a few hours after dinner. And if she was really hungry for dinner at 3pm, and then she wasn’t that hungry for real dinner at 6pm, by 8 or 9pm, she probably needs something before she goes to bed. 

Alright, should I read the next one? 

Q: My question is about restricting food, not for dietary reasons, but because of the financial and waste concerns. My spouse and I wince when we see our kids drowning their waffles in maple syrup and leaving a plateful of it, eating all the prepackaged expensive foods we try to save for their lunches and eating all the Girl Scout cookies so they don’t have to share them with a sibling.

I’ve told my kids that they never need to hide food, but I find them doing so in order to get the last of something like the Oreos they want to keep from their brother. I buy Oreos every time we go to the store, and our house has plenty of sweets and other snack foods, but eventually we will run out of things. How do we keep them out of the scarcity mindset while still dealing with the realities of eating with a family?

 I really feel you on the syrup. It’s so expensive. 

Corinne

I know I was thinking you’re basically watching your kid pour gold on their pancakes. 

Virginia

It’s so much. 

Corinne

I mean this whole question is relatable to me. I definitely had some anxiety growing up about like, I feel like my dad would always eat stuff that I wanted, like leftovers or like the last cookie or something, you know?

Virginia

Yeah, it’s really tricky because the bummer answer to this is: A finance-based scarcity mindset can be just as damaging as a diet-culture based scarcity mindset.

Corinne

So true. 

Virginia

Kids who grow up without enough to eat, or with this sort of ever-present worry about there being enough to eat often end up with some disordered eating stuff down the road, understandably, because when there is food, they’ll feel like, “I have to eat it all. Because I don’t know what I’m going to eat it again.” It’s totally logical. So this can be really tough. And I’m not sure from this question, if you are struggling to afford these foods? Is there a true food insecurity issue in your house? Or if it’s more just, you are on a budget. 

Corinne

You only go grocery shopping once a week and Oreos don’t last the whole week.

Virginia

So I’m not sure which one we’re dealing with. But I just want to say if affording food is really hard for you, then obviously, your first priority is getting whatever support you can around that. Which could be finding out if you’re eligible for SNAP benefits, making sure your kids are on the school lunch program, all the stuff that I am sure you are already doing. And don’t need me to explain to you.

If it’s more just the “Good God, that was a $9 bottle of syrup” moment, I think it’s okay to say to kids, “This is a more expensive food.” So we’re going to be mindful of that. With syrup, if you have little ramekins or bowls, you can say, “We’re going to give everyone their own syrup.” And pour generously! Don’t flood the plate the way they would flood the plate, but pour generously enough so that every kid feels like they have their own and they don’t have to share it.

We do this sometimes with something like brownies. Or if we have cake or some dessert that we don’t have as often. When I know the kids are going to be really excited about it, I often will just go ahead and portion it out. Not because I’m trying to control how much they eat. But because I want them to know, “I’m definitely getting mine.” 

This actually just happened with Cadbury Mini Eggs, which are just a prime example of a scarcity mindset food because you can only get them for a month a year and they’re the best candy. It’s so hard! Dan brought home a big family-size bag from the grocery store. And between me and the girls, it was gone by the next night and he was like, “Really? Really? There are none left?” I think he was mad he didn’t get any. But I was like, “Yeah, no there are none left.” I know that you thought that was a big bag, but we haven’t had these in ages and we’re all real jazzed about it.

Corinne

You need to start portioning out some for Dan.

Virginia

I suppose that would have been nice of me. 

Corinne

So if you’re portioning out the brownie—what does that mean? Like you cut the brownies into four squares and give everyone a square? 

Virginia

I usually give everyone two squares because I feel one brownie is never enough.

Corinne

Oh, you cut them into normal sized pieces. 

Virginia

Oh yes. I just cut up the brownies. But rather than put the pan of brownies in the middle of the table, which might make everyone worry, like, “Am I going to get the piece I want?” Especially because, in my household, center-of-the-pan brownies are highly coveted. It’s a whole thing.  So I’ll just go ahead and be like, “Here’s your center brownie.” So they don’t have to be anxious about whether they’ll get one.

Maybe also, talk to your kids about which foods they worry about wanting the most. It’s useful to know what that is. So you can think about how to ease up that fear, in a way that is in line with your budget. But maybe the kid who’s hiding the Oreos, you buy them their own jumbo bag of Oreos and they don’t have to share. And maybe if that’s in your budget, you do that for a few weeks and see how that goes. And maybe every kid gets their own favorite snack food in that kind of quantity, which they don’t have to share with a sibling. And then it’s understood that all the other stuff is shared. It’s not teaching restriction or scarcity to say, “Okay, let’s make sure everyone has their seconds before you have thirds.” That’s manners. That’s okay. 

Corinne

Or to maybe just one week buy like super extra amounts of Oreos and be like, eat as many Oreos as you want this week. 

Virginia

And see what they do with that. That would be interesting.

Corinne

All right. Here’s a question for you: How comfortable are your Charlotte Stone clogs?

Virginia

They are comfortable for clogs, is what I would say. And I love clogs very much. But they are a little bit of a scam in that they are not actually the most comfortable shoe. So I do not equate them to sneakers. For sure sneakers are more comfortable. Birkenstocks are more comfortable. But I wear my Charlotte Stone clogs the way other people might wear a ballet flat, or a loafer, like a dressier shoe. And I feel like no dressy shoe is ever really that comfortable. They’re pinchy or they give you blisters. And so by that standard, these are quite comfortable. Because they have a built-in memory foam padding situation. So you’re not walking on a block of wood the way you are with some clogs. I feel like I got shin splints from those, back in the day. They’re definitely more comfortable than that. But I wore them downtown yesterday. And I did move my car to avoid walking two blocks because it was uphill. So I don’t wear them for extensive walking. 

Corinne

But you would say they’re more comfortable than some clogs?

Virginia

I think yes. Of the various cute clog brands.

Corinne

Fashion clogs.

Virginia

They are the most comfortable fashion clog I have tried and I have tried probably three or four brands. Like they’re better than Number Six. They’re better than Swedish Hasbeens. 

Corinne

My issue is that clogs are always too narrow for me. I can never find clogs that fit.

Virginia

Yeah, and I mean I have narrower feet, so I don’t know how useful Charlotte Stone is on that front.

Corinne

They do have a lot of sizing info. I tried some Charlotte Stone non-clogs, like they had a cute sneaker-ish thing, because they go up to size 12. Which should be what my size is, but they were way too narrow. Like I could not even get my foot in.

Virginia

That’s such a bummer. Somebody could get into the wide width clog market and do very well.

Corinne

Oh God, seriously. I found one clog that works for wide-ish feet. It’s called Haga Trotoffel or something.

Virginia

That sounded like a very accurate pronunciation. 

Corinne

I’ve had a pair, but it’s the non-padded pure wood kind. So it’s just not super comfortable to me.

Virginia

Those are rough. Ever since I sprained my ankle, I am very cautious. Where am I going to wear these clogs? What sort of terrain am I walking? I really want to find some cute ones with a strap at the back for more stability. I think Charlotte Stone has ones with a strap that I’m thinking about trying, except I don’t need more clogs. 

Corinne

Number Six also has some that are really cute and the base is almost flat. That might be more uncomfortable. I don’t know.

Virginia

Well I wear the lowest height Charlotte Stone clog. I do not go for their super platforms. I am not 22. That chapter of my life is closed. But they’re not a Dansko clog! Let’s be clear. And, I would say to be realistic that if you live on the east coast, or the Midwest, they’re like, a three month a year shoe. They’re great in the spring. They’re great in the fall. They’re going to be too hot in the summer and they’re going to be useless in the winter. So factor that in. 

Okay, so next up: 

Q: I have a question about chafing. Since giving birth for the second time in 2021, my body has changed and I probably fall in the small fat category. I’ve dealt with chafing between my thighs and in the summers before, but now that I have to wear outside clothes and get out of the house more, I am dealing with chafing in the groin area even in the winter, which is the thing I didn’t I don’t have prior experience with. I am looking for recommendations for underwear that have a wide enough gusset to hopefully prevent this. And any other tips to be more comfortable in this regard with this new body of mine? 

Corinne, you’re the underwear queen!

Corinne

I have a lot of thoughts about this.

Virginia

You are the resident Burnt Toast underwear expert.

Corinne

My first thought is: Are we sure this is a chafing issue? 

Virginia

Oh, what else could it be? 

Corinne

Well, another thing that can happen when you become fat is you get irritation in your skin folds area. So just something to throw out there, because I’ve heard people having confusion around that before. It’s like a yeast infection you can get in your skin folds. It’s like a diaper rash. And you can treat it with diaper rash cream or zinc cream.

Virginia

Aquaphor?

Corinne

No! Aquaphor? Isn’t Aquaphor like Vaseline?

Virginia

Yeah, but I used it on my kids’ butts when they had diaper rash. 

Corinne

Okay, well, maybe I don’t know anything about diaper rash.

Virginia

Maybe that was a bad move.

Corinne

I feel like a lot of diaper rash cream has zinc in it, and it coats your skin to protect it. 

Virginia

I know what you’re talking about now.

Corinne

In terms of wider gusset underwear, there are not a lot of good options. The one option that I have found out about which I have not tried but have ordered and am currently waiting on is this underwear from the brand Panty Drop. I’m kind of confused about what’s going on with them because it seems like they merged with another brand which was Kade & Vos. Okay. But they claimed to have wider gusset underwear. 

And another thing you could consider would be boxers or boxer briefs.

Virginia

I was wondering about even a boy’s short underwear. Something that has a longer thigh situation.

Corinne

It goes down further.

Virginia

Or bike shorts as underwear. 

Corinne

And I mean, people definitely make chafing shorts. 

Virginia

Yes! I just ordered some from Snag.

Corinne

People also like Thigh Society. So you could shop around and look for chafing shorts that you could just wear as underwear. 

Virginia

Right, just under your jeans or other hard pants, And where are you on MegaBabe or the other chafing balms? Do you have one you like?

Corinne

I have MegaBabe. I almost never need it. Just, whatever way that I’m designed, it’s not an issue for me right now. 

Virginia 

I get chafing but I haven’t tried MegaBabe. I actually have a very low tech hack. But I use Old Spice antiperspirant, which is my husband’s antiperspirant, and I use that as my antiperspirant. And so then I just put it between my thighs as well. And I find that holds up pretty well. I sometimes have to reapply it during the day, like on a very hot day. And one of the reasons I think I don’t wear dresses as much anymore is, chafing is an automatic reality in dresses. And some shorts too, depending on how they’re cut. So we feel you. This is a reality of fat life for sure! 

Corinne

If you have fat friends, you can talk to them about it because a lot of people have this problem.

VIrginia

It’s an evergreen conversation. Everyone will have opinions.

Corinne

Okay, next question: 

Q: Any tips on changing the dialogue with mom friends or friends in general who are progressive and informed otherwise, but still mired in diet culture? I feel like I’m the only one who isn’t intermittent fasting or doing keto.

Virginia

I posted a meme on Instagram today, there was something like to all the women who are bullying each other to order salads, aren’t you so sad that you hate your life so much. And my DMs are currently flooded with people asking some version of this question: How do I keep going out to dinner with my friends who are so in this space? One person was telling me about being out to dinner and this group of women were trying to split tacos. Like tacos are small to start with. And they were all like, “Well, I can’t eat a whole one.”

Corinne

I’m like, “Am I ordering 9 or 12.”

Virginia

Correct. The number of tacos I need to be full is a very high number. I would not split one in two. It’s already only two bites!

Corinne

It’s like trying to split a popsicle.

Virginia

It’s a total mess. So I feel like my first piece of advice is, can you make new friends? I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I know. 

Corinne

My first piece of advice is just like, Man up. Tell them you don’t want to talk about it.

Virginia

That’s better than mine.

Corinne

I mean, maybe it’s harsh. It’s a little tough love. Your advice is good too. There’s gotta be other people out there who are sick of this. Like, every person I know could benefit from some examination of their relationship with diet culture. So I just feel like, you can’t be the only one who’s struggling.

Virginia

There are almost 30,000 people subscribed to this newsletter, who probably feel the same way as you because why else are they reading the newsletter and listening to this podcast?.

Corinne

Okay. Actually, this is a little off topic. But can I tell you something? So, as previously discussed, I go to the gym. I have a trainer there. And this week, when I saw her, she was like, “Hey, so this person contacted me who found me through Burnt Toast.” 

Virginia

Yay! 

Corinne

So I’m just saying what that basically means is there is another person in the city that I live in, who’s reading Burnt tToast who I don’t know. And none of my friends know. 

Virginia

Right! But who maybe would be an awesome friend. 

Corinne

Or who at least also has some skepticism of diet culture stuff.  So that’s got to be true for you as well.

Virginia

And you have powerlifting in common! Yes, in my close group of friends, we really never talk about this. And maybe it’s because they read the newsletter and know that I’m not the friend for this. 

Corinne

They’re scared. 

Virginia

But we have so many better conversations because this is off the table for us. And we never made a conscious decision to do it. It just kind of happened. I do feel like in the past, we had more diet-y conversations. And we’ve all kind of shifted away from it. And it’s been lovely and great for our friendships. And so maybe you do need to officially say it to these people: I love you. But I just don’t want to talk about diets. This really isn’t good for me. I just end up feeling shitty about myself. And there are so many more interesting things to talk about here.

Corinne

Yeah. I think it’s good for people to know that too. If people are totally unaware that talking about their diets constantly is hurting people, then they should know. And they deserve to know that.

Virginia

Completely agree. And often this talk is very performative because we think we have to talk this way. And so you being the first one to say, “What if we just ordered what we wanted to eat and didn’t do this whole dance?” I call it like playing the game of Salad Chicken, where you’re like,“Could I order the pasta? No, not if she’s ordering the salad.” Like, if you could not do that? Man, dinner is gonna be way more fun. So just give people permission to not do it and see what happens. 

And if they really can’t get there, then I circle back to: Can you have other friends? Or can you say to them, I don’t want to spend our time talking about this but I’m really sorry you’re struggling and how can I support you?

Corinne

Oh my God, I love the idea of responding to someone who’s excited about intermittent fasting with, “I’m sorry, you’re struggling.”

Virginia

How can I support you in this starvation?

Corinne

I’m so sorry that you’re not eating food.

Virginia

You’re right. That might not be the moment.

Corinne

No, I like it. 

Virginia

I think it could work? I think it’s an option. 

Corinne

I mean, I think this is also that sort of situation where you can be like, “It’s so interesting that we’re all so focused on our weird diets.”

Virginia

The patented Corinne “It’s so interesting!”

Corinne

Just an anthropological, outsider observation.

Virginia

It’s always, always a good moment for that. All right. Should we do Butter? 

Corinne

Yes. I do have a Butter. What I want to recommend is this recipe called Trouble Cookies. It’s from a cookbook called Mother Grains, but it’s also on the Bon Appetit website. And I feel like it’s a little annoying to recommend because it does have a really annoying to find ingredient which is sorghum flour. 

[Reminder that if you preorder FAT TALK from Split Rock Books, you can also take 10 percent off any book mentioned on the podcast!]

Virginia

Oh Lord.

Corinne

But you can order it from the internet!

Virginia

Corinne will find a link for you.

Corinne

Bob’s Red Mill’s has it. So if you have that kind of grocery store. Anyways, they also have coconut cashews and toffee bits and are extremely delicious. I’ve been trying to get my mom to make them for like a month and now I’m moving on to the Burnt Toast community. Please make Trouble Cookies and tell me how good they are.

Virginia

I will try them. I will report back if I can get it together to get sorghum flour. I could use a new cookie. We’re just a standard chocolate chip cookie household. 

Corinne

I feel like chocolate chip cookies are good. But sometimes, a different direction is really good, too. 

Virginia

Is there chocolate in it? 

Corinne

No, it’s coconut toffee bits cashews.

Virginia

Could I put chocolate chips in instead of the toffee bits.

Corinne

I mean, I feel like you could? But it’s really good. Do you not like caramel-y, coconut-y stuff?

Virginia

Amy will tell you it is very hard for me to have a dessert that doesn’t have chocolate in it.

Corinne

Okay, this one is not for you. 

Virginia

I’m just always like, but where’s the chocolate? 

Corinne

Oh my God.

Virginia

What am I doing here?

Corinne

 I’m the opposite. And I mean, I really like chocolate. But I also really like a coconut-y caramel-y vibe. 

Virginia

I do too. I’m just like, but how much better if there was chocolate. That’s all I’m saying.

Corinne

I feel like maybe you could dip it in chocolate? 

Virginia

All right. I don’t know. I’ll try them out. I’ll report back. Maybe I’ll do half the batch with the toffee, half the batch with the chocolate chips. I can tell you my kids won’t touch them if there’s no chocolate. So that’s like a non-starter. 

Corinne

Really? Wow.

Virginia

Oh, please. 

Corinne

I feel like a lot of kids don’t like chocolate. 

Virginia

That is not the case in the Sole-Smith home. See previous anecdote regarding Mini Eggs consumed in a day. And center brownies. It’s very clear what we’ve come here to do.

Corinne

All right, what’s your Butter?

Virginia

All right, my Butter is, I am breaking up with underwire bras. Breaking news. 

Corinne

This is big news. 

Virginia

You’ve all been wondering. I’m not totally breaking up with them because I haven’t quite found a non-underwire bra that works under every outfit. Because there can be a uniboob situation? But I have recently purchased some non-underwire bras. And I realize now that I don’t know how I made it through the whole pandemic while still wearing underwire bras every day. Every day!

Corinne

Me neither! I feel like when we originally talked about bras on a mailbag episode, I recommended the bras that you ended up getting.

Virginia

The True & Co bras? 

Corinne

Yes! And you were like, “Oh, never heard of them.” 

Virginia

Well, you influenced me. And then Marielle Elizabeth really influenced me. And I bought a bunch of them and they’re awesome.

Corinne

They’re really good. The sizing is super flexible. I can wear anywhere from a 1x to a 3x. And I have a big chest.

Virginia

You do have to look for the full cup. Because I ordered some that were like a half cup and they do not work if you are someone with a big chest. 

Corinne

Yes, they have full cups and regular cups. 

Virginia

So you have to look for the full cup. I can only find them on Amazon right now. I don’t know. 

Corinne

They’re only on Amazon now. 

Virginia

It’s really irritating. I would like there to be other options. But the other one I’m wearing a lot of, is I have some of the Paloma bras from Girlfriend Collective. And actually, this one isn’t the Paloma, it’s the high necked? I don’t know. But I like it because it feels just like a tank. 

Yeah, I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to get here. I will be 42 a few weeks after you hear this episode. It’s taken me a while. But now, I realize that I don’t have to accept permanent marks on the side of my body from bras. Like what was I doing? I think I thought I really needed more structure. I’ll unpack it all in an essay at some point. But for now, I just want to report the liberation that I am wearing underwire bras much less frequently. And it’s delightful. 

Corinne

I love that. 

Virginia

All right. Thank you all so much for listening to Burnt Toast!

Corinne

If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!