Baby It's Cold Outside: A Guide To Wholesome Flirting?

Malcolm and Simone discuss the classic Christmas song "Baby It's Cold Outside" and how it demonstrates wholesome flirting using plausible deniability. This allows romantic interest to be signaled while preserving both parties' ability to save face if unrequited.

They contrast it to more recent "slutty Christmas" songs conveying entitlement and transactional attitudes. The importance of picking up on social cues is highlighted - autistically interpreting the song as nonconsensual misses the contextual flirting.

The breakdown of traditional dating rituals due to liability risks and progressive social norms is explored. However, Simone pushes back against solely blaming women or feminism. The root cause is dominance hierarchies enforced by bureaucratic power structures that hurt both genders.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] for our Christmas episode right now.

Simone Collins: Baby, It's Cold Outside is a guide to dating. It's what flirting used to look like.

And what makes this song even more wholesome is that it was written in 1944 by Frank Loesser who was. So saying it with his wife, Lynn so like, this is something also that like, this is demonstrative by the kind of interplay that led a husband and wife to get married. Like this is the kind of behavior that leads to lasting.

Long term pair bonded relationships

Malcolm Collins: it's very interesting if you contrast it with other songs that are, that are Christmassy. Like the the two songs that both have the same theme of I'm a big slut. So

Simone Collins: last Christmas I gave you my heart and the very next day you gave it away. And Ariana Grande is singing, you know. I don't want to give it all away if you won't be here next year.

Malcolm Collins: But it's important to remember that the enemy isn't women. It's the cultural group that has enforced these norms that have made it impossible to date women.

Would you like [00:01:00] to know more?

Simone Collins: Did you

Malcolm Collins: read that loud enough for me to use it in the

Simone Collins: recording? I can read the thing. Their Troublesome Crush by Zan West. In this queer polyamorous male female romance novella, two metamors realize they have crushes on each other while planning their shared partner's birthday party together.

Ernest, a Jewish autistic demiromantic queer fat trans man submissive, and Nora, a Jewish disabled queer fat femme cis woman switch. Have to contend, with an age gap, a desire not to mess up their lovely polyamorous dynamic as metamores, the fact that Ernest has never been attracted to a cis person before, and the reality that they are romantically attracted to each other all while planning their dominant partner's birthday party and trying to do a really good job.

Malcolm Collins: So it looks like from the cover, the woman is much older than the man, obese and with a cane. So

Simone Collins: yeah, the [00:02:00] cover is, I mean, I would say the cover is well done in that it seems to be fairly accurate. We have the two overweight people dressed in classic, I don't know, progressive style standing in front of what I believe is a cupcake counter looking extremely awkward and unattractive.

Oh my gosh. Well,

Malcolm Collins: here's a reddit thread that really got me when I read it because it aligns with so much of what we've been talking about on the channel. Yeah

Simone Collins: Oh, the 20 year old dating one?

Malcolm Collins: My 20 year old son doesn't date. His friends don't date. My friend's kids don't date. What's going on? When I was in my late teens and early twenties, life for my friends and me revolved around meeting girls.

My son and his friends, who are athletic and outgoing, don't seem to put a lot of emphasis on dating. They play a lot of online video games and have boys outings.

Once in a while, one will hook up with a random girl they met on an app. Rarely does one have a girlfriend. This seems to be the norm for [00:03:00] my friend's kids, too. What's going on?

Simone Collins: Well, and then when you go through the responses, there are some recurring themes. A lot of people just say like, there's no reason to do it anymore.

You know, there's, there's no point. Other people say that it is too expensive and they can't afford to date anymore, or they bemoan the loss of affordable third spaces, basically places that aren't your home or your school or work where people can hang out. And then a lot of people just talk about like not having game and then one, one interesting comment that I thought was, was astute was balkanization of cultural touchstones. And what they meant by that was that like in the past, if you were both into gaming, you played like the same three games. If you were into anime, you watched the same three anime.

Now, even if you are into a specific sub genre, like you weren't necessarily into the same thing. So there are fewer people. Who share affinity networks really closely and I

Malcolm Collins: question [00:04:00] that push back on that one I think that they are because I remember when I was in high school it was all about the bands that you know that no one else knew about or the games that you yeah

Simone Collins: No one else played.

It's a dominant hierarchy thing to show how obscure and advanced interests

Malcolm Collins: are in a dominance hierarchy that's affiliated with this specific thing. It's typically by showing how extremely affiliated you are with that thing. And so people would front their dominance hierarchy by pushing that. And in this to note, this is not like a isolated phenomenon.

We'll put some graphs on the screen here, but. The rates of sex that people have been having while they're in high school has been dropping really dramatically over

Simone Collins: the last So many people have worked hard to make happen. I mean, I remember being in high school and they were like, the rates of sex are so high.

I mean, mission accomplished.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Mission accomplished. No one's having sex anymore. There you go. Um, well, I mean, and, and rates, it's, it's interesting. I think our generation, sometimes they can look at the younger generation and think of them as so sexually free. You know, like, Oh, look at all this stuff [00:05:00] that's allowed now.

Like I would be allowed to have like 10 girlfriends at once and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When in reality, no, just nobody's getting anything right. Like, the, the, the level when we talk about like dating and sex markets being broken, cause it's not just dating markets. It's not just marriage markets.

It's also sex markets. It is, it has gotten very hard, I think for both males and females and. for our Christmas episode right now. One thing that I was really meditating on in regards to this topic is the song baby. It's cold outside cause I've been listening to it recently. And

. Depending on the intonations and tonality used by the singers, like there are ways to sing the song. If you really want to make it sound rapey, you can do that. But generally speaking, the song doesn't come off that way at all.

It comes off just like. hitting on a girl from the past. Right.

Simone Collins: And it reminds me very much of like many traditional dating methods, mechanisms, and [00:06:00] mannerisms. They're designed around plausible done and deniability, making it more comfortable for people to make advances at partners in a way. One, it didn't make the other partner feel uncomfortable because they weren't like, I'm going to kiss you right now.

I want to have sex with you right now. Instead it is, Oh gosh, I wish you didn't have to go home. So that you could all, each of you could have plausible deniability. And if one person wasn't into it and clearly made signs of rejection of like, Nope, I got to go home now.

Bye. Then both could pretend that there was never an advance made and both could pretend that they're happy to be just friends. And so that kind of interplay. Is actually not only like not only socially helpful, but also like protective of people's ability to say no, it's actually like super, it's better than directly asking for consent.

Because you don't have to disappoint someone

Malcolm Collins: the same way. Yeah. Because then it, it does hurt somebody when you, when you tell them, no, like that hurts somebody when you drop subtly that you're [00:07:00] not interested, that doesn't hurt them as much. And it allows you to stay friends and allow things to not get awkward.

There was a reason that relationships worked this way. There was a reason that flirting worked through this system of plausible deniability. And a lot of people could be like, Nuh she's explicitly saying she wants to go, and it's like, yeah, but she's not going. It's not like she's being held hostage.

What they are both telling each other, with the words that they're using, I am interested in you. Yes, in that explicit way. But I need to see you be the one to say, yes, I'm interested in you back and what's the, the, the, the humor in the song comes from the fact that neither of them is stepping up and just being like, yeah, I'm actually interested.

Simone Collins: You can hear. It's like there's this one line in the song where G, your lips taste delicious. No, no, no, no, no, G your your [00:08:00] lips look delicious. And then the next thing he says, after the female says, her part is G, your lips taste delicious. So clearly things are progressing,

vicious lips are c, never

Malcolm Collins: they're already hooking up. And that that's the humor.

They are hooking up while pretending yeah. To each

Simone Collins: other like, we're up better, go home. Well, you shouldn't be

Malcolm Collins: dangerous out there. Yeah, I better go home. I don't know about this. What are people gonna. I think if I stay with a guy like you all night

at that storm. Suspicious. Look, delicious waves of tropical, vicious lips are

Malcolm Collins: Oh my God, I can't be responsible for my actions

Simone Collins: anymore.

And what makes this song even more wholesome is that it was written in 1944 by Frank Loesser who was. So saying it with his [00:09:00] wife, Lynn so like, this is something also that like, this is demonstrative by the kind of interplay that led a husband and wife to get married. Like this is the kind of behavior that leads to lasting.

Long term pair bonded relationships, you know, it's not like this isn't even sung by like, a sour, like single person, you know, in their forties or fifties talking about love lost. No, no, this is about a couple who is happily married, who goes to parties and has fun together talking about methodologies that they used when they were courting.

Yeah, and

Malcolm Collins: it's very interesting if you contrast it with other songs that are, that are Christmassy. Like the the two songs that both have the same theme of I'm a big slut. So what is it? One is, hold

Simone Collins: on. Well, I mean, there's Santa Baby. The more recent version of this is Ariana Grande singing at Santa. Tell me. And then last Christmas, I think it's wham called last Christmas. Wham. Yeah. And then the earlier version of this is Last [00:10:00] Christmas by Wham! And both of them are like the slutty, perpetually single version of bad courting methods.

Malcolm Collins: I keep sleeping with a different guy every Christmas. How come this isn't working out for me? Why is

Simone Collins: this person not committing to me? Last Christmas I gave you my heart and the very next day you gave it away. And Ariana Grande is singing, you know. I don't want to give it all away if you won't be here next year.

Malcolm Collins: Which is really interesting. And I don't want to do it again. She says in the song that she has done it before.

Down this road before. Fell in love on Christmas night. But on New Year's Day I woke up and you wasn't by my side.

Malcolm Collins: So it's not just saying, you know, I hope that this guy is loyal to me. And if these people are dumping them the very next day, this is not a long term relationship.

Last Christmas, I gave you my heart But the very next day, you gave

Simone Collins: yeah. There's [00:11:00] not very much affection demonstrated in

Malcolm Collins: these stories.

Which is interesting. And that it shows that there is much more wholesomeness and much more affection in the song that is typically seen as being the more like inappropriate of the Christmas songs. And when they point to lines. Like baby, what's in my drink? Like, or she's like, Hey, what's in this drink?

What's in this drink? What's in this drink?

Saying what's in this drink

Malcolm Collins: So one in social context of the time period, that was a common way to say I'm feeling kind of tipsy. I'm feeling like my inhibitions are down. Like maybe we should do something. You, you compare it to something. My mom used

Simone Collins: to say all the time, your mom used to like.

We have like one glass of wine and be like, I'm not going to lie. I'm a little tipsy just to like show that she was in a celebratory mood. And that's exactly like this person basically saying I'm down to clown. And

Malcolm Collins: that's basically saying I'm down to click. No, let's be clear. The, the accusation here is she's implying that the drink was spiked with [00:12:00] alcohol or that the drink was spiked stronger than she expected, but that's worse than alcohol, but then.

She wouldn't be saying what she's saying, like, it is very clear from contextual clues

I wish I knew how, Your eyes are like starlight now, To break this spell,

Malcolm Collins: when our society's social rules aren't made up by, and I'm sorry to say this, Simone, I know you're autistic, but autistic idiots who can't catch basic social cues, that they see somebody say that in a song and they go, Oh, she's being drugged against her will, when really what she's saying is, I'm down to clown, very obviously, and then they'd be like, how can you tell the difference?

Because she didn't immediately leave that a sane person who thought that their drink had just been spiked inappropriately is leaving is going to say, Hey, what are you doing? Like, even if they were like, oh, well, she's afraid of the guy in this song and that's why she's not leaving. First of all, that's this weird.

progressive feminist fever dream [00:13:00] she very clearly has the ability to leave at any point in the song, and that is made clear throughout the song. The fact that she is saying, hey, my inhibitions are down, but she's deciding to stay. Stay is saying, Hey, I'm interested in you. And just, if we go over like the way flirting works, right?

She is very explicitly coding for him in the excuses that she is using. Not to stay is other people will think negatively of her for what it would look like she had done if she stayed. So what is the implication of that? The implication is she intends to do those things. Okay, she is not vaguely bringing up like, Oh, people will, you know, think something has gone wrong or something like that.

It's people will think we hooked up if I stayed here. That is what flirting looks like and the level of autism [00:14:00] to hear that. And think that this is somebody who's being flirted with against her will is frankly absurd. And I, I think that this shows, I mean, then a lot of people can say like, so what are you saying?

Are you saying that we should go back to flirting this way? But not, so I would

Simone Collins: do, I'm going to defend the autists over here. Like if I were to hear this and interpret this like an autist the insinuation is actually like, hmm, there's inclement weather outside and I need to stay here all night, but people will think.

Negative things. That's it. Like, I don't, I don't, I get zero like autistic hackle raising about like some implication of, of foul play or coercion from this song. It's just too wholesome.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And that's so, but, but this all comes back to the lowering rates of sex, people not knowing how to date and people not being able to date in the way that they would have historically dated.

Yeah. So I think that there's many guys who know like. This is what courtship is supposed to look like. Another really interesting [00:15:00] thing. And when I say supposed to look like is historically when people courted this way, I know because I courted this way, sometimes those women, women really enjoyed this.

Okay. Women really enjoy in dating some level of plausible deniability. It's just in the past. And it was hotter for them.

Simone Collins: It's hotter. It's protective. For everyone. It's safer.

Malcolm Collins: Well, it was protected for everyone. The problem is, is that in our current society, plausible deniability is grapes. Okay?

Simone Collins: Well, and plausible deniability for, especially for men, is risk.

Because plausible, plausible deniability at any point retroactively can be turned into criminal action. It's just horrible. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And that's horrifying for men today. And so they do not date in this way. They have to basically explicitly ask a woman. Hey, are you open to me kissing you? But

Simone Collins: even in some places, like, [00:16:00] in Denmark, it seems that new regulation at play is such that even if you have, like, literally filmed, written consent, notarized, you know, it doesn't matter how far it goes, a woman can still retroactively go back and decide, no.

Which is,

Malcolm Collins: how do you think people are going to find partners? Like, literally. And do you think that this is what women really want? Like, you as a woman, would you have really wanted me to be that explicit, instead of normal flirting, which is, for example, moving out to touch you and seeing if you remove my hand.

If you remove my hand, I don't do it again. This is the thing. And this is the problem where people end up going overboard with this sort of stuff. When the person has clearly signaled they're not interested, and yet you keep making moves. And I think that this is one of the problems, potentially as society is becoming more autistic, this sort of nuanced dating, because society is becoming more autistic, this sort of nuanced dating actually does lead to actual grapey situations much more often, because people don't pick up the, no, I'm actually not interested [00:17:00] in you social cues, because if the woman in the song was actually giving the guy cues, like, I'm not interested in you.

Him continuing to go on and on would have been a very threatening environment for her. Well, and

Simone Collins: vice versa. In fact, I think there's a version of the song where They keep all the female lyrics, but then the male lyrics are like, okay, go. And it just makes her look super creepy. So of course it goes both ways.

And I, and I do think that these, these problems, especially now the risk does go both ways because you can now have a woman be very aggressive with a man. And put him in a position where he feels coerced because he worries that if he doesn't respond to her advances, she will then retroactively.

frustrated because she's already unethical enough to push his boundaries when she knows he's not okay with moving forward. She's unethical enough to also then make accusations should he not accept her unwanted advances. So I think it can be equally scary for men in these [00:18:00] situations.

Malcolm Collins: But and one thing I want to be clear, which I think is always one of the big problems or things that annoys me about the wider manosphere, is we'll point to an issue like this has happened because of a change in dating culture, and they, and I talk about how this affects both men and women, and they're like, well, it's a change that women wanted, and it's like, No, it's a change that some influential women wanted.

I'd say that always the majority of women in society didn't really like this. Yeah,

Simone Collins: I don't even think it's fair to say that women wanted it. I think it's fair to say that power hungry bureaucrats wanted it. That people playing dominance hierarchy games wanted it. People who wanted to impose safetyism culture wanted it.

And they don't, I don't even think, again, I think it's safetyism culture, but within a dominance hierarchy. Just as we were going back to like, anime, right? Like people showing that they're bigger fans of anime or indie rock bands by choosing more and more obscure, impossible bands and shows in the same realm of safetyism culture, which had a massive [00:19:00] meteoric rise throughout the nineties and especially the early aughts.

The best way to show your extra power, your extra commitment to that movement. And to wokeism in general was to propose even more stringent classifications and agreements like, Oh, we have to have all these terms. And now you need to have a written consent. And of course I'm clearly better and more important in this culture because I'm the one who's willing to take this obscure and extreme measure.

So again, this is not a woman thing. This is not a man thing. This is a dominance hierarchy slash bureaucratic tumor thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and, and, and, when, and then people be like, yeah, but that movement was more female than male that caused this cultural breakdown, and I'm like, so f*****g what? So f*****g what?

A lot of, the women who I am going to add, that this is hurting today, are not the you know, the, these ultra, ultra progressive women, I am sad that this is hurting normal girls.

Simone Collins: [00:20:00] Yeah, I mean, it's like in like Viking raids in which there was, there was, you know, pillaging and, and, and brutalization of, of families in small villages.

You know, it's like, Oh, well, this is a man problem. Men were doing all of the rating and it's like, well, yeah, but also it's like fathers, male children, brothers lost people they loved, had people they love violated, were themselves killed. Like, I'm sorry. There are victims for every, every violent, corrupt hurtful movement out there.

Don't pretend that like, because some, some boxes ticked among those who are the aggressors means that the aggressors are that box tick.

Malcolm Collins: So, uh, this means it's. It's on the group that is motivating the action, not the individual, not like some aspect of the individuals, right? So like, if you're mad about the Viking raids, don't be mad at men, be mad at Vikings.

If you're mad about what the ultra progressive, wokus, you know, urban monoculture cultists have done, be mad at them! Yes, [00:21:00] male or female. Don't be mad at women. There's women out there that are hurt by this just as much as there are men that are hurt by this. And we need to work together to destroy the actual scourge, which has led to this and work together to fight against that scourge, not blame people who may have a lot of sympathies for.

Our cause and what's going on. But this brings us to another point that you were talking about, which is a, we do still need to recognize that on average, women are more progressive and men are more conservative. And one of the things that has led to a damage in dating culture is people not being willing to cross the aisle in

Simone Collins: dating anymore.

Right. So limestone and Brad Wilcox recently wrote a piece on this in the Atlantic where they talked about the growing disparity between men and women in terms of political affiliation, plus the growing number of people who are not willing to date across the aisle. And this is not something that showed up in this, in their article.

For some other event I [00:22:00] went over. a detailed survey results PDF that showed friendship over the years. And it also showed that friends are less likely to be, to befriend people who have different political affiliations from them and that people have unfriended people based on their political affiliation.

However, this is worse among progressives. So progressives are much more likely to have. Unfriended someone because they were conservative or just not progressive enough, which is

Malcolm Collins: really interesting because it's actually more dangerous for conservatives to have progressive friends than progressive to have conservative friends.

Why do you say that? So for example, I'm a guy and I'm hitting on a woman who's too progressive. That's actually a huge risk to me because she can like get me charged with rape or something like that. Whereas the inverse is less true. Although women could say, well, he may not respect my boundaries or something.

You know, it'd be great. They're just, this

Simone Collins: is really frustrating though, right? Because like when you and I met, I think you and I were both way more progressive than we are now, which is a very common [00:23:00] trajectory, right? Like people grow up and get responsible. Actually, that's not true. Really? I thought it was like the common myth.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. People don't actually become much more conservative as they age. It's your, your political leaning is heavily genetic and not really well, not heavily, moderately genetic. And then other than that, it's experiential, but it doesn't seem to turn consistently more conservative as people age. But

Simone Collins: what's interesting then is I would say that our, our political leanings genetically, if I had to like, come up with like, what our genetics seem to reveal about our intuitions is that we're both extremely classical liberals, like libertarians, like, get off my life, you know, don't mess with my stuff.

And, but, but I, I think was more on the progressive end when we met. And you were more on the conservative end when we met, like we, I

Malcolm Collins: was still progressive. I would have been considered

Simone Collins: progressive. Yeah, no, you were totally considered progressive. But also like I, when we were going to get married, remember, like at first I was like, well, you know, of course I'm not going [00:24:00] to change my last name.

And you're like, what? I

Malcolm Collins: was like, no, of course you're changing your last

Simone Collins: name. And, and so, but like, that's the thing is like now I think women would. hear you say something like that and be like, well, that's a nail breaker and it's

Malcolm Collins: so stupid. But would you have? Would you have ever been caught up by this culture so much that you would feel that way?

No,

Simone Collins: probably not. But like, also, I don't know. Like, things have gotten so extreme recently. People have gotten So like there's this collective delusion. I do think that there's some kind of weird social contagion. It's, I mean, it was possible in like the middle ages for people to dance themselves to death because some weird social contagion spread in their, in their village.

Right. I think it's entirely possible for people to, who are otherwise perfectly reasonable.

Malcolm Collins: I love, I love this analogy that this is like in the medieval ages when people dance themselves to death. That's what we're seeing among progressives right now. You know, we were talking, we were talking with this reporter who reached out to us recently.

Do you want to go over, like, she just kept bemoaning, like, well, I need [00:25:00] to find a guy who you know, lives in New York city and is a progressive and it's very hard if you Yeah. I'm like, I'm, you know

Simone Collins: Why I won't find, you know, guys who compromise for me. And she showed absolutely zero willingness to compromise for a guy when really like for me, my process of really falling in love with you was every time you exposed me to something that I hadn't realized every time that you changed my perspective on something, every time you opened my eyes to something, like I remember one day I was like, well, you know, America has like the worst education system.

We're so embarrassing. And you're like, Actually, like, have you seen what European, like, education systems are like? And he showed me all this data and I was like, holy smokes. America's amazing. What? anD like, like, I feel like people should be even more attracted to people of different, well, I would say they should be even more attracted to conservatives.

Malcolm Collins: , so I think one thing that's important to note is many progressive women out there are like Simone.

[00:26:00] They are actually interested in finding out what's true about the world. Okay? And you will be excited Yeah, I think many people think progressives because

Simone Collins: they're pro social and they care.

Malcolm Collins: But that means you have to use actual data backed arguments. You need to actually go over stuff. Now there's another class of women out there who, if you show data that doesn't agree with their tribes preconceptions, that is an attack that, and, and, and those are people who you will just.

Never be happy being with, just trust me. Like if they're like an ideological tribalist even if you're progressive, you're probably better off not being with them.

Simone Collins: Well, and these people aren't pro social in the end because they don't care about data that ultimately may help them improve societal outcomes.

They care whether or not you have shown to be in their cult.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and I guess what we're saying at the end of all this is.

Simone Collins: Baby, It's Cold Outside is a [00:27:00] guide to dating. It's what flirting used to look like. Yes, it is how you should flirt if you find someone who is not completely woke and likely to write you up and report

Malcolm Collins: you to the police.

Well, I think even now, I don't, I don't think the young generation could easily risk flirting that way. Oh boy. No, so, so I think it's an intractable problem at this point, but it's important to remember that the enemy isn't women. It's the cultural group that has enforced these norms that have made it impossible to date women.

And that if you can get through that, if you can get a potentially good partner it is much harder to date than it was historically. I would not play the trade up game as aggressively as I see some of our followers playing it. Where they're like, well, I can do better than the one I have right now.

Maybe. Maybe and they're like, well, if I get a lot richer and it's like, yeah, but then you're older and you're in a dating market where it's potentially even harder. Like when I say harder, they're like, yeah, but women get more desperate. Like [00:28:00] these 30 year old single women, they're more desperate than the younger ones.

And I can get. More attractive women. And I'm like, yes, you probably can, but I'd also

Simone Collins: even those more attractive women now I think are culturally ruined. I was just poking around on Reddit last night. I was looking at like, I think maybe am I the a*****e? I was looking at that subreddit and there was like 22, no, 19.

She was 19. And she was like, am I the a*****e for being mad? Then my 62 year old husband doesn't says he can't care for our twins. Like, so she decided to marry this guy who's incredibly likes way older than she is. And clearly as a stay at home wife and was, was surprised that her husband who had just gotten some kind of diagnosis, like I think he needed to get a hip replacement or knee replacement or something like pretty intense.

And was like, listen, you know, you're going to need to. kind of like pull the weight here. I'm like literally not well enough to raise twins right now. And she's like, well, and there was, there was another one that I read. And I think this was [00:29:00] also in, in, in my, the a*****e, or maybe just no mother in law, which is another subreddit I follow where someone was talking about her evil mother in law and how her mother in law.

was criticizing her for not doing enough cooking and cleaning as a stay at home wife. So not even a stay at home mother, just a state. So the woman who has no job and just stays at home in a very expensive house who her mother in law was by and her, her, she found her husband making and cleaning up after dinner.

As this wife was lying in bed upstairs because her period cramps were too bad. And then the mother was sort of criticizing for her for like, listen, you're a stay at home wife. Like, why is he making dinner for you and cleaning after working all day? And I'm like reading this and my blood is boiling.

Like this woman is so entitled. Like part of me is like, Yeah, throw up your hands. Women are ruined. Like, I don't, I don't know. Like the, just like the, the, there could be this like complete lack of understanding of this is not about women and men. This is not about roles in the household. This is not about like men should be able to do their own laundry and cook.

You know, everyone [00:30:00] should be able to take care of themselves. Obviously this is about reciprocity. This is about what are you bringing to the table in a social contract? And people seem to have completely lost the plot there that there is no like. Again, it's that, that, that level of entitlement, you know, just like, well, but of course I deserve everything because I deserve everything instead of like, you deserve as much as you deserve based on what you bring to the table.

If you bring 10 points to the table, you deserve 10 points in return, you know, of equal value.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I am so lucky that I met you and and, and that I met you young enough that we were able to grow together and those cultural influences that could have tarnished both of us were able to intertwine as we, we grew up together.

And so. Yeah, I just strongly encourage people to not, not think I'll be wealthier in the future. I'll be more successful in the future. I'm just going to wait to do better. But

Simone Collins: also like not to wait for a perfect person out of the box, because there is no such thing. You have to grow with someone [00:31:00] and someone's not going to be perfect for you.

You have to make them perfect for you and you have to become perfect for them. Like, I was just thinking like, if I woke up suddenly someday, it's like a single man. And I had to figure out, like, what to do. I actually think there's a ton of low hanging fruit. Like, I would go through, like, all of the female porn like, subreddits and stuff, and sort of see, like, what women fantasize about.

Because actually, like, a ton of it's really wholesome. And then I would just start acting it out. Like just, you know, be that like kind listener who, you know, makes them feel safe and love. Like, like it's just, it's not that hard. And it's now we have more data than ever. Like, I think in the past it was actually really hard for men to understand what women wanted.

Like kind of, you had to go by ads and ads were like, well, buy this perfume for your wife and she'll love you, you know, or like get flowers for this girl. And she'll be so happy. Whereas now, like you can literally see. The number of upvotes on specific behavioral patterns. And then [00:32:00] ape them like, hello, low hanging fruit, like crazy.

And of course that doesn't change the fact that like women are crazy entitled and men are crazy entitled and people are lazy and stressed and whatever. And there's no money and there's no desire, but like, there's still so many things you can do and you have to adapt you, you as you are, are not good enough, period, not good enough.

No one is, I wasn't good enough for you. That's like super clear. And you changed a lot for me too, to accommodate me because I'm very neurotic and crazy. So. Anyway, rant over

Malcolm Collins: so far. Well, and this is fantastic and I appreciate that when I met you, I mean, you were good enough in that you, you always were working to improve yourself and you, and you always recognize that you could improve yourself still.

And that that was a desirable thing. I guess the most

Simone Collins: desirable thing these days is malleability, isn't it?

Malcolm Collins: Well, infatuation. Well, infatuation and interest is being submissive and breedable. Okay.

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