Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

Sep 15, 2024

Camille Fournier, author of 'The Manager’s Path' and former CTO at Rent the Runway, shares her wealth of experience in tech leadership. She discusses the common frustrations engineers have with product managers, like communication breakdowns and misallocated credit. Camille offers insights on avoiding major rewrites in software, the transition from engineer to manager, and the importance of clear collaboration with platform teams. She also emphasizes striking a balance between effective management and personal well-being, topped off with tips for new managers.

01:23:15

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Episode guests

Camille Fournier

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Quick takeaways

Product managers must acknowledge engineers' contributions and encourage open discussions to improve team morale and collaboration.

Engineers appreciate when PMs exhibit empathy by understanding the complexities of their work, fostering a supportive atmosphere.

PMs should involve engineers in the ideation process to promote creativity and prevent stifling innovation during project planning.

Deep dives

The Importance of Credit Sharing

Project managers (PMs) often face criticism from engineers for not adequately sharing credit for projects. Engineers may feel overshadowed by PMs who are the face of initiatives and take the spotlight during presentations. It's crucial for PMs to recognize the hard work of engineers and ensure that acknowledgment is shared. Creating opportunities for engineers to discuss their contributions can enhance team morale and foster a collaborative environment.

PM should avoid being a middle person

00:58

Evolve, Don't Abandon: The Perils of System Overhaul

03:18

Regular Reflection Cultivates True Productivity

01:19

The overpromise of GraphQL

01:34

Intro

2min

Navigating Annoyances: Improving PM and Engineer Relationships

2min

Navigating Frustrations Between Engineers and Product Managers

4min

Navigating Engineering and Product Management Dynamics

21min

Navigating the Transition: Engineers to Managers

4min

Navigating the Transition from Engineer to Manager

5min

Effective Management and Work-Life Balance

14min

Navigating Platform Team Dynamics

19min

Exploring Platform Engineering and AI in Work

3min

10.

Navigating AI and Personal Growth

8min

Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:

• What product managers do that annoys engineers

• Why major rewrites are a trap

• Why you should have fewer one-on-ones

• Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams

• Tips for new managers

• Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager

• Much more

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Brought to you by:

• DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity

• CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users

• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

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Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier

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Where to find Camille Fournier:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/

• Website: https://skamille.medium.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Camille’s background

(02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers

(07:09) Avoiding the telephone game

(08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering

(09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation

(11:37) The middle-person dilemma

(14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap?

(20:40) Engineering leadership lessons

(36:02) Moving from IC to management

(40:32) One-on-one meetings

(45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones

(45:27) Building a balanced work culture

(48:01) Effective time management strategies

(54:15) Advice for platform team success

(01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities

(01:04:43) When to form a platform team

(01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team

(01:12:48) AI corner

(01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/

• The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897

• 97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903

• Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e

• Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio

• Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg

• GraphQL: https://graphql.org/

• New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD

• Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/

• Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/

• Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7

• Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2

• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304

• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438

• Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/

• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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