S16 E44: Abdel on ZK STARKs & Bitcoin Maximalism

Sep 17, 2025

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Abdel is a Starkware engineer who, over the last 7 years, went from building EIP 1559 on Ethereum to becoming a Bitcoin maximalist who wants ZK STARKs to happen. In this episode, we talk about his journey & some of Bitcoin's cultural issues. Time stamps: 00:00:59 - Sponsors: Sideshift, Citrea, Bitcoin.com News, LayerTwo Labs, NoOnes.com 00:01:38 - Abdel's unique journey: From Ethereum core dev at ConsenSys to Bitcoin maximalism 00:02:17 - Early Bitcoin curiosity (2011-2012) vs Ethereum's "world computer" appeal 00:03:51 - Fintech background: Working for banks before fighting them 00:04:31 - Always a Bitcoin + Ethereum maxi: Building unstoppable systems 00:06:07 - North Star vs "Nostr": Unstoppable vs compromised systems 00:06:23 - Fintech to DeFi? Payments focus, not advanced trading 00:07:29 - First Ethereum contributions: Smart contracts 00:09:09 - Deep dive: Championing EIP-1559 (fee burn, ultrasound money) 00:11:03 - EIP-1559's governance risks: Changing monetary policy on the fly 00:11:16 - Ethereum's slippery slopes: DAO hard fork to fee burns 00:12:12 - Ethereum as anti-Bitcoin experiment: From colored coins to rollups 00:13:48 - Ethereum Classic hopes; market follows narratives, not fixed supply 00:14:28 - EIP-1559 process: 2+ years of debate vs Bitcoin's immutability 00:15:59 - Boiling frog with Vitalik: Accumulating compromises (trusted setups) 00:18:28 - Ethereum precedents: Premine, PoS migration, rushed upgrades 00:19:14 - Social layer strength: Protects core principles vs nation-states 00:19:41 - Non-tech users in governance: Better than dev-only control 00:22:32 - Educating the social layer: Privacy warnings in Bitcoin tools 00:24:26 - Risks: Bitcoin (tech obsolescence) vs Ethereum (social dilution) 00:26:49 - Bitcoin meetups: Ideology & tech vs Ethereum's builder focus 00:28:00 - Shocking anti-Bitcoin sentiment from Ethereum side 00:29:52 - PoW beauty: External entropy, fair distribution (not Ponzi) 00:31:44 - PoW vs PoS: Tolerating Ethereum's PoS for decentralization 00:34:20 - Bitcoin's privacy crisis: Needs scale + affordability 00:36:43 - Sponsor: Layer2 Labs (Drivechains for sidechains like Zcash fork) 00:38:02 - Sponsor: Citrea (ZK rollup on Bitcoin via BitVM2) 00:40:09 - Citrea drama: Unfair criticism amid filter wars 00:42:40 - Citrea vs Alpen: First-to-market wins (garbled circuits delay) 00:46:01 - Video game analogy: Duke Nukem Forever vs pragmatic launches 00:47:25 - Lesson from Ethereum: Optimistic rollups dominate despite ZK superiority 00:48:56 - Dev events vs mainstream: Bridging tech narratives to plebs 01:10:00 - Fragmentation in Bitcoin community, why plebs dismiss innovation 02:30:00 - Off-topic: Immigration in Europe (Romania/France parallels, economic pressures) 02:38:16 - Bitcoin as catalyst: Inflation from crises drives adoption 02:39:46 - Decentralization as development sign: Small-scale consensus 02:42:11 - New chains start centralized; trust incentives lacking in L2s 02:44:41 - Starkware as bridge to Bitcoin: Pre-existing interest 02:45:57 - Elevator pitch: STARK proofs for Bitcoin (open-source, battle-tested) 02:48:21 - Endgame: Verify STARKs on Bitcoin for programmability + privacy 02:49:52 - Meme magic: One STARK proof is smaller in size than a photo, costs less than a Big Mac, can be verified in a blink 02:52:29 - STARKs vs SNARKs: No trusted setup, quantum-secure, hash-based 02:54:31 - Experiments: Cashu with STARKs (private programmable e-cash) 02:58:37 - Nostr DVMS: Verifiable AI/services in permissionless marketplace 03:01:16 - Cashu origin story: Bar chat with Calle to Jack Dorsey endorsement 03:03:16 - Cashu honesty: Not scaling, but privacy bridge vs custodians 03:06:25 - Nihilism in Bitcoin: Mental gymnastics vs Ethereum's build-first ethos 03:07:48 - Permission culture: Asking nodes for ZK proofs/Lightning channels 03:08:27 - Event split: Dev confs (BTC++) vs narrative fests (BTC Prague) 03:10:29 - Why invest without understanding? Newbie wave acceleration 03:11:23 - Niche value: In-between content bridges extremes 03:13:48 - Who listens matters: Robin Linus' DM is more important than mass views 03:16:07 - Still early days: 16 years in, aim for 1B daily users 03:16:39 - Special word: "Grinta" (grit mindset) for full listeners 03:18:14 - Outro: Thanks & next: Shai on PoW improvements