In this discussion, Kristian Rönn, co-founder of Normative and author of The Darwinian Trap, explores the hidden evolutionary forces shaping our society. He delves into the cautionary tale of Picher, Oklahoma, highlighting the tragedy of prioritizing profits over community welfare. Rönn tackles the ethical dilemmas in business, likening profit-driven practices to 'Darwinian demons.' The dialogue also touches on the urgent risks of nuclear threats, engineered pathogens, and the need for radical transparency in global governance, urging a reevaluation of societal values for long-term survival.
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Pitcher, Oklahoma
Pitcher, Oklahoma, was a booming mining town in the early 20th century.
Hazardous mining practices led to toxic waste, creating a ghost town.
insights INSIGHT
Unintentional Harm
Bad emergent effects can arise even without bad intent.
The parable of Pitcher, Oklahoma illustrates this point.
insights INSIGHT
Darwinian Demons
Darwinian demons are selection pressures that incentivize destructive behavior.
Profit maximization, for example, can push companies to harm their environment.
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The Hidden Evolutionary Forces That Explain Our World (and Threaten Our Future)
Kristian Rönn
This book delves into how humans are intrinsically wired to seek short-term success at the expense of long-term prosperity, a phenomenon Kristian Rönn terms 'Darwinian demons.' These deeply rooted impulses, a by-product of natural selection, can lead to shortsighted actions that harm others and imperil human survival. Rönn argues that to escape these evolutionary traps, humans must learn to cooperate in new ways and create systems that understand, track, and manage what humankind values most. The book offers a powerful new lens on global problems and invites readers to rethink their priorities for the sake of future generations.
Jim talks with Kristian Rönn, co-founder of the carbon accounting tech company Normative, about his book The Darwinian Trap: The Hidden Evolutionary Forces That Explain Our World (and Threaten Our Future). They discuss Darwinian traps & demons, the parable of Picher, Oklahoma, the "cost of doing business" mentality, beauty filter arms races, perverse incentives in science, Goodhart's law, how nature deals with defection vs cooperation, kamikaze mutants, pandas as evolutionary dead ends, close calls with nuclear weapons, engineered pathogens, AI risk, radical transparency at the nation-state level, reputation systems, types of reciprocity, distributed reputation marketplaces, developing Darwinian demon literacy, local change, and much more.
Episode Transcript
The Darwinian Trap: The Hidden Evolutionary Forces That Explain Our World (and Threaten Our Future), by Kristian Rönn
"Five Rules for Cooperation," by Martin Nowak
"The Vulnerable World Hypothesis," by Nick Bostrom
Kristian Rönn is a founder, author, and global governance advocate. He pioneered cloud-based carbon accounting by founding Normative, a platform that helps thousands of companies achieve net-zero emissions. A proponent of effective altruism, Kristian advocates for prioritizing the wellbeing of Earth's inhabitants as the key metric for progress. Before Normative, he worked at Oxford’s Future of Humanity Institute, focusing on global catastrophic risks and AI. He has contributed to numerous global standards, legislation, and resolutions on climate and AI governance.
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