Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career cover image

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)

Mar 6, 2025
Ivan Zhao, CEO and co-founder of Notion, shares his captivating journey from a small town in China to shaping a leading productivity platform. He reveals the challenges Notion faced during COVID, including a near collapse due to database constraints. Discover why he believes in 'sugar-coating the broccoli' for product appeal and the value of a lean team in fostering innovation. Zhao discusses the balance of craft and values in product development, community-led growth tactics, and how these principles paved the way for Notion's success.
01:12:18

Episode guests

Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

  • Notion's early pivot from a developer tool to a user-friendly productivity tool illustrates the importance of aligning product vision with user needs.
  • Ivan Zhao's unique journey from a small town in China to leading Notion highlights how diverse experiences can shape effective leadership philosophies.

Deep dives

The Early Challenges of Notion

The early years of Notion were marked by significant trial and error as the team experimented with various product concepts. They initially focused on creating a developer tool that would allow users to build their software easily, only to discover that most people were uninterested in such capabilities. This realization led them to pivot towards developing a productivity tool, likening their approach to hiding a nutritious 'broccoli' within an appealing 'sugar' coating. Over time, they learned the importance of building products that resonate with users' daily needs rather than prioritizing their own vision or preferences.

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