Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)

Mar 6, 2025

Ivan Zhao, CEO and co-founder of Notion, shares his captivating journey from a small town in China to shaping a leading productivity platform. He reveals the challenges Notion faced during COVID, including a near collapse due to database constraints. Discover why he believes in 'sugar-coating the broccoli' for product appeal and the value of a lean team in fostering innovation. Zhao discusses the balance of craft and values in product development, community-led growth tactics, and how these principles paved the way for Notion's success.

01:12:18

Creator website

Episode guests

Ivan Zhao

AI Summary

AI Chapters

Episode notes

Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

Notion's early pivot from a developer tool to a user-friendly productivity tool illustrates the importance of aligning product vision with user needs.

Ivan Zhao's unique journey from a small town in China to leading Notion highlights how diverse experiences can shape effective leadership philosophies.

The challenges faced during the COVID-19 pandemic taught Notion the value of adaptability, emphasizing the need to maintain a lean and focused operation.

Deep dives

The Early Challenges of Notion

The early years of Notion were marked by significant trial and error as the team experimented with various product concepts. They initially focused on creating a developer tool that would allow users to build their software easily, only to discover that most people were uninterested in such capabilities. This realization led them to pivot towards developing a productivity tool, likening their approach to hiding a nutritious 'broccoli' within an appealing 'sugar' coating. Over time, they learned the importance of building products that resonate with users' daily needs rather than prioritizing their own vision or preferences.

Intro

4min

The Journey from Small Town to Tech Innovator

3min

The Roots of Tech Passion

4min

The Early Struggles of Notion

18min

The Power of a Lean Team: Navigating Challenges with Efficiency

4min

Building a Lean and Inspiring Workspace

4min

Crafting Technology with Purpose

22min

AI-Enhanced Productivity and Human Potential

14min

Ivan Zhao is the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan shares the untold story of Notion, from nearly running out of database space during Covid to finding product-market fit after several “lost years,” and the hard-won lessons along the way.

—

What you’ll learn:

1. Why you sometimes need to “hide your vision” behind something people actually want—what Ivan calls “sugar-coating the broccoli”

2. How Ivan and his co-founder persevered through multiple product resets and complete code rewrites

3. Why Notion prioritized systems over headcount, keeping the team small and focused even at scale

4. Why Ivan believes in craft and values as the foundation for product development, balancing technical excellence with aesthetic sensibility

5. The surprising story of how Notion nearly collapsed during Covid when their single database almost ran out of space with only weeks to spare

6. Community-led growth tactics

7. Ivan’s unique journey from a small town in China

8. Much more

—

Brought to you by:

• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

• Airtable ProductCentral—Launch to new heights with a unified system for product development

• Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao

—

Where to find Ivan Zhao:

• X: https://x.com/ivanhzhao

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Ivan Zhao

(04:41) Ivan’s early life and education

(07:46) Discovering the vision for Notion

(10:49) The lost years of Notion

(13:56) Rebuilding and perseverance

(17:14) Layoffs and company morale

(18:53) Advice for startup founders

(25:08) Product-market fit

(29:56) Staying lean and efficient

(34:27) Creating a unique office culture

(37:20) Craft and values: the foundation of Notion’s philosophy

(38:44) Navigating tradeoffs in product and business building

(41:24) Leadership and personal growth

(49:11) Challenges and crises: lessons from Notion’s journey

(51:08) Building horizontal software: joys and pains

(01:02:40) Philosophy of tools and human potential

(01:06:17) Lightning round and final thoughts

—

Referenced:

• Ürümqi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi

• Notion: https://www.notion.com/

• SpongeBob SquarePants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants

• Augmenting Human Intellect: https://web.stanford.edu/class/history34q/readings/Engelbart/Engelbart_AugmentIntellect.html

• Alan Kay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay

• Ted Nelson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson

• Steve Jobs on Why Computers Are Like a Bicycle for the Mind (1990): https://www.themarginalian.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle-for-the-mind-1990/

• Xerox Alto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto

• React: https://react.dev/

• Simon Last on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140/

• Magna-Tiles: https://www.magnatiles.com/

• Design on a deadline: How Notion pulled itself back from the brink of failure: https://www.figma.com/blog/design-on-a-deadline-how-notion-pulled-itself-back-from-the-brink-of-failure/

• Bryan Johnson on X: https://x.com/bryan_johnson

• Tobi Lütke’s leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook

• Smalltalk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#:

• Lisp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)

• DeepSeek: https://www.deepseek.com/

• Shana Fisher: https://www.crunchbase.com/person/shana-fisher

• LAMY 2000 fountain pens: https://www.jetpens.com/LAMY-2000-Fountain-Pens/

• Macintosh 128K: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K

• Toshiba rice cooker: https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/cooking-appliances/rice-cooker

• Transistor radio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_radio

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/

• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/