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Influence campaigns, both subtle and unsubtle, are as old as statecraft. Agencies like the CIA, KGB, and Israel’s Mossad have all attempted to force friends and rivals to change. It doesn’t work as often as you’d think. Subversion campaigns are often so secretive that their effectiveness is hard to quantify. But Lennart Maschmeyer decided to try.

Maschmeyer is on this episode of Angry Planet to tell us all about the limits of cyber war and subversion operations. It’s the subject of his new book Subversion: From Covert Operations to Cyber Conflict. Maschmeyer is a senior researcher at the Center for Security Studies at ETH Zurich and his book is a deep look at what works and what doesn’t when countries try to influence each other. It throws cold water on Russia’s much-hyped “Hybrid War” and the idea of cyber Pearl Harbor.

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181: Create the Best Place to Work, with Ron Friedman