Johnn Andersson is a systems scientists looking at socio-technico-ecological systems. We speak about systems in the widest sense and also in the details. Maps and territories make their way into this conversation as well. We speak of the ontological vs the epistemological aspects of systems and what it does to us when we mistake those. We also speak about the consequences of our decision to focus on systems of innovation in the 80's vs what could have happened if we would instead have talked about systems of transformation all along. This episode is very rich and invites a different way of understanding the world in a very tangible way. Enjoy!