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#204 A Government Budget Is Nothing Like A Household Budget. So What IS It Like? with Steven Hail

Dec 17, 2025

01:23:43

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Episode notes

Patricia and Christian talk to Professor Steven Hail about some of the tricky questions progressive leaders and activists are facing. The conversation explores Zack Polanski's bold media messaging, bond market myths, and the historic opportunity for MMT-informed politics in the UK.

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Podcast Description

The Green Party's Zack Polanski has been making waves with his bold rejection of the household budget analogy for government spending. But if government budgets aren't like household budgets, what are they actually like?

In this episode, economist Steven Hail returns to explore this fundamental question that sits at the heart of Modern Monetary Theory. The conversation begins with Polanski's media appearances and his courageous willingness to challenge orthodox economic narratives on national television. Christian and Patricia examine why this messaging resonates - it's both empirically true and intuitively correct that governments and households operate under fundamentally different constraints. Steven provides crucial context about the unprecedented nature of Polanski's public stance, comparing it to other MMT-informed politicians globally and explaining why the UK media backlash has been so fierce.

The discussion reveals how currency-issuing governments like the UK create new money with every expenditure, rather than spending existing tax revenue. This leads to a deep exploration of government bond markets, with Steven dismantling the myth that governments are at the mercy of bond traders.

The conversation addresses common fears about currency depreciation and inflation, with Patricia providing analysis on food imports and energy pricing. Steven argues that the UK's high degree of monetary sovereignty means exchange rate fluctuations pose manageable rather than catastrophic risks.

The episode tackles criticism from figures like Paul Mason, revealing contradictions in mainstream left arguments about fiscal constraints. The trio discuss practical policy implications, from a Job Guarantee as an automatic stabiliser to the importance of detailed capacity analysis for government investment programmes. Throughout, they emphasise how MMT insights could inform genuinely transformative political change, with Steven suggesting the UK may be experiencing a historic political realignment that creates unprecedented opportunities for MMT-informed governance.

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Key Topics with Timestamps

[02:15] Government vs household spending: the mirror image concept
[05:30] Why every government pound spent is a newly created pound
[08:45] Zack Polanski's media strategy and establishment backlash
[15:20] International comparison: MMT movements worldwide
[22:10] Currency creation mechanics and tax/bond relationships
[28:40] Addressing Paul Mason's critique of MMT
[35:15] Exchange rate fears and monetary sovereignty
[42:30] Food imports, energy pricing, and inflation pass-through
[48:45] Fiscal rules and the job guarantee discussion
[55:20] Project 2030: detailed policy development approach

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Guest Bio

Professor Steven Hail is an economist, author, and founder of Modern Money Lab. Based in Australia, he travels globally supporting MMT education and policy development.

Key Takeaways

Government spending always creates new money - it's not a choice between spending taxes or creating money
Bond markets serve investors, not governments - pension funds need bonds more than governments need to issue them
UK monetary sovereignty provides resilience - exchange rate fluctuations are manageable, not catastrophic
Political opportunity is unprecedented - both major UK parties may be collapsing simultaneously
Detailed policy frameworks matter - MMT insights must be coupled with sophisticated capacity analysis

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19th - 21st March 2026: https://www.scoteconfest.org/#learnmore

JOIN PATRICIA'S MMT ACTIVIST NETWORK (MMT UK): https://actionnetwork.org/forms/activist-registration-form

Join the MMT UK Discord server to connect with others looking to promote MMT and ecological economics in the UK!: https://discord.gg/S3UbxFe4FR

MMT: THE MOVIE!

"Finding The Money", a documentary by Maren Poitras featuring Stephanie Kelton is now available worldwide to rent or buy: https://findingthemoney.vhx.tv/products/finding-the-money
Updates on worldwide screenings of "Finding The Money" can be found here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/where-to-watch/
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STUDY THE ECONOMICS OF SUSTAINABILITY!

Details of Modern Money Lab's online graduate, postgraduate and standalone courses in economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/

Relevant to this episode:

Get tickets for Modern Money Lab's free online lecture series coming up in January 2026: https://events.humanitix.com/economics-of-sustainability-2026-lecture-series
"The self-financing state: An institutional analysis of government expenditure, revenue collection and debt issuance operations in the United Kingdom" (Berkeley et al, 2022): https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/sites/bartlett/files/the_self-financing_state_an_institutional_analysis_of_government_expenditure_revenue_collection_and_debt_issuance_operations_in_the_united_kingdom.pdf
For more on the (Liz) Trussageddon, listen to Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
"How to Fight Back Against the False Idea that the Government is at the Mercy of Financial Markets" by Sheridan Kates: https://thealternative.org.uk/dailyalternative/2025/3/10/scotonomics-monetary-autonomy
"There is no need to issue public debt" by Bill Mitchell: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=31715
Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva's Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/
Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1) :https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
"Federal Debt and Modern Money" by Steven Hail & David Joy: https://www.global-isp.org/wp-content/uploads/PN-121.pdf
"Is exchange rate depreciation inflationary?" by Bill Mitchell: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=32922

For an intro to MMT:

Our first three episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742417
Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318

Quick MMT reads:

Warren's Mosler's MMT white paper: http://moslereconomics.com/mmt-white-paper/
Steven Hail's quick MMT explainer: https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-modern-monetary-theory-72095
Quick explanation of government debt and deficit: "Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It": https://christreilly.com/2020/02/17/some-numbers-are-big-let-me-help-you-get-over-it/

For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download Warren Mosler's "7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy" here: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

Episodes on monetary operations:

Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/28004824
Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318
Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41790887
Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683
Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46352183
Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46865929

For more on Quantitative Easing:

Episode 59 - Warren Mosler: What Do Central Banks Do?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/39070023
Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true

Episodes on inflation:

Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41780508
Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/40672678
Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healing The Nation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/52207835
Episode 123 - Warren Mosler: Understanding The Price Level And Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/59856379
Episode 128 - L. Randall Wray & Yeva Nersisyan: What's Causing Accelerating Inflation? Pandemic Or Policy Response?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/63776558

Our Job Guarantee episodes:

Episode 4 - Fadhel Kaboub: What is the Job Guarantee?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742701
Episode 47 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Building Resilience - The Case For A Job Guarantee: https://www.patreon.com/posts/36034543
Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva's Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/

More on government bonds (and "vigilantes"):

Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1):https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true
Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
Episode 144 - Warren Mosler: The Natural Rate Of Interest Is Zero: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71966513
Episode 145 - John T Harvey: What Determines Currency Prices?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/72283811?pr=true