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The Tim Ferriss Show
#653: Elan Lee, Co-Creator of Exploding Kittens — How to Raise Millions on Kickstarter, Deconstructing Mega-Successes, Secrets of Game Design, The Power of Positive Constraints, The Delights of Craftsmanship, and The Art of Turning Fans into Superfans
Feb 2, 2023
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02:08:53
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Quick takeaways
- Game design starts with simple components like blank cards and paper to create engaging core gameplay loops.
- Playtesting determines engaging concepts by focusing on creating a desire for players to continue playing.
- Games should have easy-to-learn gameplay and simplified instructions with instructional videos for intuitive learning.
- Game design involves creating visually appealing, durable games that resist exploitation and inspire joy.
- Exploring diverse game genres highlights the importance of staying updated on the evolving tabletop game landscape.
Deep dives
Starting with Core Gameplay Loop Creation
To begin designing a game, the process starts with imagining various core gameplay loops using simple components like blank cards and paper. The goal is to create a conflict or motivation that will drive conversation and engagement between players.
Testing the Gameplay Ideas
Once the core gameplay loops are designed, the next step involves testing them with playtesters to determine the most engaging concepts. The key question during playtesting is whether players want to continue playing the game after the initial round, focusing on creating a desire to play again.
Design Principles: Easy-to-Learn and Engaging Gameplay
When designing games, the emphasis is on creating easy-to-learn yet engaging gameplay that doesn't require extensive reading of complex instructions. Instructions are simplified, directing players to instructional videos on the game's website for a more intuitive learning experience.
Key Game Design Criteria: Robust Gameplay and Visual Appeal
A crucial aspect of game design involves ensuring that the game doesn't feel fragile, meaning it should resist exploitation or cheating. Additionally, games should possess visual appeal and quality components that inspire joy and a desire to share the game with others, enhancing its life beyond a single play session.
Navigating the World of Tabletop Games
Exploring the vast world of tabletop games, the podcast delves into the evolution and diversity of game genres. From classic games like chess and backgammon to modern tabletop games, the discussion highlights the importance of keeping abreast of the evolving game landscape. With a focus on game types like fill-in-the-blank games and deck-building games like Dominion, the episode emphasizes the entertainment and narrative collaboration that these games offer.
Game Design and Mentorship
The podcast reveals insights into game design and mentorship through the journey of a renowned game designer and his profound influence on a mentee. By sharing the tale of a mentor who shifted roles to encourage creative growth, the episode showcases the pivotal role of mentorship in fostering game design innovation. The mentor's significant impact on projects like the Xbox games and alternate reality games underscores the transformative power of mentorship.
Challenges in Shipping and Global Play
Addressing the complexities of global shipping in the gaming industry, the podcast unveils challenges faced with international orders, particularly highlighting unique obstacles like customs regulations in Russia. The discussion sheds light on the critical role logistics play in delivering products worldwide and emphasizes the importance of strategic planning and responsiveness to unforeseen obstacles in the gaming market.
Building an End-to-End House Business Model
The podcast episode discusses the journey of transitioning from outsourcing various business functions to building an end-to-end house model. The hosts delved into how they initially outsourced sales, marketing, production, logistics, and other aspects, realizing the need to learn from these experiences to eliminate external dependencies. By attempting to handle these functions themselves, failing, and then hiring skilled individuals, they were able to excel in different areas and engage in unique conversations with partners, such as introducing creative packaging concepts.
Navigating Strategic Investments and Company Growth
The episode highlights significant milestones in the company's growth, particularly in transitioning from solely owning the business to strategic partnerships and investments. It explores the decision-making process behind accepting investments and partnering with experts who can help expand the company beyond its original scope. The hosts emphasize the importance of maintaining control over the company while benefitting from the guidance and strategic insights provided by investors, leading to unexpected opportunities like developing a Netflix show and engaging in innovative collaborations.
1.
Introduction
6min
2.
Poetry for Neanderthals
4min
3.
Playing Ghost Town
3min
4.
The Anatomy of a Game
3min
5.
Play Test - Can We Talk to You?
2min
6.
The Anatomy of a Game
2min
7.
Core Gameplay Loops
2min
8.
Kickstarter and the Oatmeal
4min
9.
The Oatmeal Kickstarter Campaign
4min
10.
We're Going to Throw a Party and Everybody's Invited
2min
11.
How Did You Track All This Stuff?
3min
12.
How Do You Convert Casual Fans Into Super Fans?
3min
13.
How Do You Apply Positive Constraints to Your Games?
5min
14.
Athletic Greens AG1 Vitamin D Supplement Review
3min
15.
How Do Your Sales Channels Break Down?
2min
16.
How to Design a Tabletop Game?
4min
17.
What's Your Brainstorming?
5min
18.
D and D: Neanderthals - A Review
2min
19.
What Do You Think Are the Best Tabletop Games?
4min
20.
A Chef's Menu Tasting of Different Game Genres
2min
21.
Settlers of Catan
2min
22.
The Periodic Table of Elements
2min
23.
You're Responsible for the Neck of Jar Jar Banks
2min
24.
You Don't Give Me $200 Million, Jordan
3min
25.
Jordan Jordan: The Most Brilliant Guy in the World
2min
26.
The 10 Commandments of Jordan Weisman
5min
27.
Did It Come as a Surprise or Was It Intentional?
2min
28.
The Story of the Blizzard
2min
29.
Why Are Kids Games So Awkward?
2min
30.
Game Design - I Can't Let Her Win Again
2min
31.
Amazon
2min
32.
Exploding Kittens
5min
33.
How to Minimize Shipping Costs on Kickstarter
2min
34.
What Are Some of the Challenges of Shipping?
2min
35.
The Exploding Kittens Box
3min
36.
End to End House
4min
37.
Is There a Superpower in That?
2min
38.
The Turning Group - How Does It Play Out?
2min
39.
What Does Failure Mean?
2min
40.
How Do Startup Founders Navigate Decisions Like This?
4min
41.
Exploding Kittens
3min
42.
What Are Your Ideal Dance Partners?
2min
43.
The Love Is Conditional on Financial Outcome
2min
44.
The Five Bullet Friday Podcast
5min
45.
Shopify - A Platform for Anyone to Sell Anything Anywhere
2min
Brought to you by Athletic Greens’s AG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement, Helix Sleep premium mattresses, and Shopify global commerce platform providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business.
Elan Lee (@elanlee) is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 20 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015.
Before founding Exploding Kittens, Lee was the chief design officer at Xbox Entertainment Studios, where he led the Interactive Entertainment Portfolio. Prior to that, he was the founder and chief creative officer of Fourth Wall Studios and co-founder of 42 Entertainment. He began his career at Microsoft Games Studios as a lead designer on the original Xbox.
Lee has won a Primetime Emmy for the series Dirty Work; Game Innovator of the Year for Exploding Kittens; a Peabody Award for the world’s first alternate reality game, The Beast; and an IndieCade Trailblazer Award for a distinguished career in interactive entertainment, among others.
Please enjoy!
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Go to shopify.com/Tim to sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period. It’s a great deal for a great service, so I encourage you to check it out. Take your business to the next level today by visiting shopify.com/Tim.
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This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 by Athletic Greens, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system.
Right now, Athletic Greens is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and 5 free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product.
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This episode is also brought to you by Helix Sleep! Helix was selected as the #1 overall mattress of 2020 by GQ magazine, Wired, Apartment Therapy, and many others. With Helix, there’s a specific mattress to meet each and every body’s unique comfort needs. Just take their quiz—only two minutes to complete—that matches your body type and sleep preferences to the perfect mattress for you. They have a 10-year warranty, and you get to try it out for a hundred nights, risk-free. They’ll even pick it up from you if you don’t love it. And now, Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders plus two free pillows at HelixSleep.com/Tim.
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[06:00] Poetry For Neanderthals and collaborating with creative cohorts.
[16:41] Kitty Test Pilots and core gameplay loops.
[22:21] Crowdfunding, alternate reality games, and internet archaeology.
[25:54] Matthew Inman and The Oatmeal millions.
[32:18] The perils of operating faster than the speed of Gmail.
[34:06] Converting casual fans into superfans.
[34:51] What not to do when your Kickstarter goes better than expected.
[36:51] The budget of production needs to fit the fun.
[43:01] Does size matter?
[44:44] From direct-to-consumer sales to being featured in big box stores.
[47:07] Building a game from scratch quickly.
[52:26] Guiding principles.
[56:37] Foundational game recommendations for beginners.
[1:05:10] Is Settlers of Catan the game you think it is?
[1:07:35] Lessons learned from game design veteran Jordan Weisman.
[1:08:50] If you built Jar Jar Binks’ neck, they practically let you run the place.
[1:11:38] If you can’t rock the vote, then clothe the vote.
[1:15:35] Other practical Jordanisms.
[1:16:55] Steven Spielberg and The Beast.
[1:23:19] Hate playing Candy Land with your kids? Design new games with them.
[1:28:02] Growing Exploding Kittens from a game into a company.
[1:32:56] International shipping nightmares.
[1:36:13] Why an open-door policy had to be shut.
[1:38:27] Employees and their roles.
[1:41:50] Milestones.
[1:43:06] When big asks get big results.
[1:47:18] Investor expectations.
[1:52:15] What kind of retirement does someone who makes fun for a living envision?
[1:56:07] Dance partners, algorithm defiance, and other parting thoughts.
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For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.
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Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.
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