People and Projects Podcast: Project Management Podcast

PPP 481 | Why Great Managers Add Zero Value and Why That is Good News, with author Matthew Ley

Oct 22, 2025

Matthew Ley, author of "Manage Your Gaps," challenges conventional wisdom about management, arguing that managers are often seen as "zero value add." He emphasizes the need for clarity between contributors, managers, and leaders, advocating for a new understanding of their distinct roles. Ley introduces his EP!C Management model focusing on Environment, Performance, Identity, and Communication. He also shares practical tips for enhancing one-on-ones and applying management principles at home, making them relevant for both professional and personal growth.

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INSIGHT

Management Needs A New Frame

Managers often need a provocative wake-up call to rethink their role and value.
Framing management differently can change how managers approach their job and teams.

ANECDOTE

A Childhood Of Moves Built Adaptability

Matthew Ley moved frequently as a child and learned to read rooms and adapt quickly.
That skill later shaped his ability to diagnose organizational dynamics and help teams.

ANECDOTE

First Management Role Was A Wake-Up Call

Matthew Ley recounted being promoted into management and quickly becoming overwhelmed.
That difficult transition launched his deep study of what management actually requires.

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Summary

In this episode, Andy talks with Matt Ley about his new book Manage Your Gaps: Reclaiming the Awesomeness of Management. Matt challenges the myths and misunderstandings around management, explaining why clarity between contributors, managers, and leaders is key to organizational performance. You'll hear why he says managers are "multipliers" of value, how to recognize when you're being overled or overmanaged, and why he believes managers are not "junior leaders."

Matt introduces his EP!C Management model: Environment, Performance, Identity, and Communication. It's a tactical framework designed to help managers activate and optimize their teams. He also shares practical ideas for improving one-on-ones, measuring success, and even applying these same principles at home through the Four Cs: Care, Clarity, Consistency, and Communication. If you're looking for actionable insights to sharpen your management skills and strengthen your team's performance, this episode is for you!

Sound Bites

"The thing is, managers are zero value add."
"Contribution is all about working in the business. Management's all about working on the business and leadership's all about working on the future."
"A manager is someone who's titled with making sure that they're multiplying the value of that organization."
"A leader's job is to look up and out. So their job is to define the new, whereas a manager's accountability is to look down and in. So their job is to refine the now."
"If you're not doing one-on-ones on a regular, consistent basis? That to me is the beating drum and the heartbeat of management."
"It's really hard to feel successful in something if you don't have two things. One, you need a definition of what you're doing. And you need a measurement of how you're doing against it."
"We reflect on the different roles that we play, that we call four hats: our professional hat, our personal hat, our partner hat, and our professional parent."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
01:38 Start of Interview
02:00 Family Influence on Leadership
04:00 Career Journey to EP!C Model
07:20 Rethinking Roles as Spokes
09:40 Managers vs. Leaders
12:40 Over-Led or Over-Managed
15:20 Zero Value Add Concept
17:20 Introducing the EP!C Model
20:20 Identity in Management
22:20 One Practical Management Tip
24:00 Applying EP!C at Home
26:14 End of Interview
26:37 Andy Comments After the Interview

Learn More

You can learn more about Matt and his work at ManageYourGaps.com.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

Episode 363 with Roger Martin. Roger typically shows up in the Thinkers50 Top 10 and shares key management lessons that complement this discussion.
Episode 47 with Henry Mintzberg. It's a candid, entertaining conversation with one of the most influential management thinkers of our time.
Episode 11 with Susan Scott. Based on her book Fierce Leadership, this episode explores powerful communication and management lessons that still hold up today.

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Talent Triangle: Business Acumen

Topics: Leadership, Management, Role Clarity, Team Performance, Organizational Design, Communication, One-On-Ones, Change Management, Coaching, Strategic Thinking, Team Culture, Manager Development

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: The Fantastical Ferrett by Tim Kulig License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Tropical Vibe by WinnieTheMoog License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license