So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Ep. 239: Columbia University, Mahmoud Khalil, DEI, law firms, and more

Mar 27, 2025

Will Creeley, legal director at FIRE, and Conor Fitzpatrick, supervising senior attorney at FIRE, dive into the intricate tensions between free speech and institutional pressures. They discuss Columbia University's controversial response to federal funding cuts over anti-Semitism allegations, the implications of the Mahmoud Khalil deportation case, and the chilling effects of DEI policies on dissent in academia. The conversation also touches on the risks of using funding to control political narratives and the essential role of due process in safeguarding civil liberties.

01:04:24

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Episode guests

Conor Fitzpatrick

Will Creeley

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Quick takeaways

The podcast highlights governmental overreach illustrated by Columbia University losing funding, raising concerns about censorship and institutional integrity.

Mahmoud Khalil's deportation case exemplifies the risks to free speech when protected expression is scrutinized under immigration law.

Maine's censure of Representative Laurel Libby underscores the challenges elected officials face in exercising their First Amendment rights amidst public discourse tensions.

Deep dives

Understanding Civil Libertarian Principles

The discussion highlights the essence of civil libertarianism, which prioritizes the prevention of government overreach through laws. This principle reflects the thoughts of the Constitution's framers on the separation of powers and emphasizes the necessity of the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is compared to 'no trespassing signs' for the government, delineating boundaries it cannot cross. The conversation underscores the vital importance of safeguarding individual rights against potential abuses by those in power.

Intro

2min

Columbia University: Balancing Anti-Semitism and Free Speech

8min

The Crucial Role of Due Process in Society and the Dangers of Political Control

3min

Free Speech and Immigration: The Khalil Case

14min

Chilling Effects: Dissent and DEI in Academia

25min

Navigating the Legal Terrain of Temporary Restraining Orders and Executive Orders

3min

Legal Complexities and First Amendment Implications

11min

We explore how censorship is impacting institutions — from universities to law firms to the Maine House of Representatives.

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

01:40 Federal government cuts Columbia’s funding

16:57 Updates on the Mahmoud Khalil case

27:01 Ed Martin’s Georgetown letter

34:59 Trump targeting law firms

55:01 Maine House censure of Rep. Laurel Libby

01:03:37 Outro

Read the transcript.

Guests:

- Will Creeley, FIRE’s legal director

- Conor Fitzpatrick, FIRE’s supervising senior attorney

- Lindsie Rank, FIRE’s director of campus rights advocacy

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Show notes:

- “DOJ, HHS, ED, and GSA announce initial cancelation of grants and contracts to Columbia University worth $400 million” U.S. Department of Justice (2025)

- HHS, ED, and GSA follow up letter to Columbia. U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, U.S. Department of Education, U.S. Government Services Administration (2025)

- “Columbia yields to Trump in battle over federal funding” The Wall Street Journal (2025)

- “Advancing our work to combat discrimination, harassment, and antisemitism at Columbia” Columbia University (2025)

- “Columbia caves to feds — and sets a dangerous precedent” FIRE (2025)

- “ED, HHS, and GSA Respond to Columbia University’s Actions to Comply with Joint Task Force Pre-Conditions” U.S. Department of Education (2025)

- “FIRE demands answers from Trump admin officials on arrest of Mahmoud Khalil” FIRE (2025)

- “Brief of Amici Curiae in Support of Petitioner's Motion for Preliminary Injunction - Khalil v. Joyce” FIRE (2025)

- “We will be revoking the visas and/or green cards of Hamas supporters in America so they can be deported.” Secretary of State Marco Rubio via X (2025)

- “‘ICE proudly apprehended and detained Mahmoud Khalil, a radical foreign Pro-Hamas student on the campus of @Columbia University. This is the first arrest of many to come.’ President Donald J. Trump” The White House via X (2025)

- “WATCH: White House downplays stock market declines as ‘a snapshot’” PBS NewsHour (2025)

- “Secretary Rubio's remarks to the press” U.S. Department of State (2025)

- “Mahmoud Khalil. Notice to appear.” Habeeb Habeeb via X (2025)

- “Alien and Sedition Acts” National Archives (1798)