The Lawfare Podcast Lawfare Daily: Defending Ukraine Outside NATO with Michael O'Hanlon and Andriy Zagorodnyuk
Aug 26, 2025
Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Andriy Zagorodnyuk, former Ukrainian Defence Minister, discuss Ukraine's defense strategies amid the absence of NATO support. They explore innovative military tactics, including advancements in drone warfare and the importance of functional defeat. The conversation also highlights the historical context of military strategies, particularly lessons from the Winter War, and emphasizes the need for a robust defense posture while considering Ukraine's fight for independence from Russian aggression.
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Indefinite Resistance Changes Putin's Calculus
- Michael O'Hanlon argues Ukraine must present the capability to fight indefinitely to change Russian calculations.
- He claims only the perception Ukraine can sustain the war will create pressure for Russian negotiation.
Paper Guarantees Alone Won't Deter
- Andriy Zagorodnyuk is skeptical that formal security guarantees alone would deter Russia.
- He warns Article 5–style wording without concrete capabilities will likely fail to produce denial or deterrence.
Put Western Personnel In Noncombat Roles
- Michael O'Hanlon recommends Western personnel in Ukraine as trainers, technicians, and a tripwire rather than combat troops.
- He also suggests substantial civilian technicians for air and missile defense and intelligence roles to strengthen deterrence.
