Mountain Cloud Zen Podcasts

Dharma Talk: “What Moves?” with Valerie Forstman

Mar 6, 2025

Two monks debate whether it’s the flag or the wind that moves, while a Zen master reveals the truth lies in our minds. Valerie Forstman reflects on this ancient koan and its relevance in our tumultuous world. Topics include the nature of hope intertwined with personal struggles, the futility of silencing the mind, and the journey towards awakening. A poignant narrative about embracing suffering and interconnectedness unfolds, showing the transformative power of awareness and compassion amidst adversity.

46:05

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Quick takeaways

Recognizing dualistic thinking is crucial for empathy and overcoming conflict, particularly in the context of global issues like the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

Engaging with the koan of the flag and wind deepens our understanding of mental movement, illustrating how stillness and thought intertwine during meditation.

Deep dives

The Importance of Seeing Beyond Divisions

Recognizing dualistic thinking is essential, especially in times of conflict, as conveyed through a conversation between the speaker and an Israeli Dharma teacher. The teacher highlighted how mentioning Gaza without mentioning Israel could easily lead listeners to pick sides, illustrating the human tendency to categorize and divide. By emphasizing the need for awareness around these boundaries, the speaker pointed out that authentic communication and insights must transcend binary views. This insight serves as a reminder that empathy and understanding are crucial in addressing global suffering.

Intro

12min

Exploring Hope and Movement through a Zen Koan

5min

The Nature of the Mind and Awakening Through Koans

23min

Embracing Suffering and Interconnectedness

7min

In the Gateless Gate (Mumonkan) case 29, two monks watch a temple flag flapping in the wind. They argue back and forth: is it the flag that moves or the wind that moves? Seeing this, the 6th Chinese ancestor, Huineng, intervenes: “It is not the wind that moves. It is not the flag that moves. It is your mind that moves.” Centuries of Zen students have taken up this case. What is mind? What is moving? What is the dharma that shows itself fully in movement and in stillness?

In this talk, Valerie traces the steps of Huineng’s teaching and looks into the question at hand in the context of practice. Busy mind, still mind. What moves? And what remains when all movement has stopped? How might these questions apply to us now as we sit in the midst of a deeply turbulent world?

Recorded on February 27th, 2025

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