Finding your passion for tax with Tony Nitti

"The tax industry is a gift for people who want to learn and grow and be challenged. There's never going to come a day where you close volume two of the code and say, 'I figured it all out, I know what it all means now.’” Tony Nitti, Partner — EY National Tax

 

In this final episode of 2024, Tony Nitti shares his journey within the tax industry, emphasizing the importance of finding one’s passion, investing in oneself and overcoming personal challenges. Listen as Tony shares his personal experience and practical advice for career growth and fulfillment in the tax profession.

 

What you’ll learn from this episode:

 

·       Finding Your Passion: The importance of identifying and nurturing your specific passion within the tax industry, whether it's the law itself, client relationships, or running a firm.

·       Invest in Yourself: The value of investing in your knowledge and skills by learning, writing, and teaching the tax law.

·       Overcome Challenges: Strategies for attracting and retaining talent in the tax industry by providing intellectual challenges and growth opportunities.

·       Try hard things: The benefits of overcoming fears of public speaking and using writing as a tool to communicate complex concepts and share your passion.

 

Resources

S Corporation Shareholder Compensation: How much is Enough?, The Tax Adviser, August 2011

Note: This was the article referenced in the podcast written by Tony. In August 2012, it was the winner of The Tax Adviser’s 2011 Best Article Award.

 

Transcript

April Walker: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Tax Section Odyssey podcast where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. Today, I'm excited to be here with Tony Nitti. Tony is a partner at EY National Tax and he's a frequent guest on the show.

We were just chatting about we think this is maybe the sixth time he's been with us. We appreciate you being with us. Our topic today is not a techie topic. It is a soft topic, but I think an important one. Tony, you did a session at National Tax which was just a couple of weeks ago, on finding your passion in tax and it incorporated some technical topics.

But today, we're just going to lean right into the finding your passion. I think we, as listeners, we just want to hear your story, tell us more about how you started and got where you are today at National Tax at EY, which is pretty impressive, I must say. Tell us more, Tony.

Tony Nitti: It's good to be here with you, April. I will also say I admire your bravery, because like you said, we just did this National Tax a couple weeks ago, or at least a shorter version of it you just went charging full speed ahead and said, let's do a podcast before we get our hands on those evaluations. We might just be doubling down on a disastrous decision.

April Walker: Never know.

Tony Nitti: Nobody wants to hear, but that's not the hope. Obviously, the hope is that something here will resonate with people who are listening who maybe are just struggling to find their center and find their passion within their careers. But if it's all right with you, I always want to address what I consider the elephant in the room of the conversation like this before we get started.

When we talk about this passion for tax, when we did it at National Tax, when we're doing it today, we're talking about a specific type of passion for this industry. What I mean by that is this idea that people are lured to the tax industry as I certainly was by a desire to live in and learn the law. Because we take one look at that tax law and we realize that it's something that's not solvable, and we want to spend our careers being challenged and being forced to grow and learning that law and apply it to our clients.

But that's not the only passion you can have in a tax industry. This passion for law, you probably need to learn the law regardless of your passion, but I've met many people in my career who have a very different passion than me. People whose passion is client relationships, building a relationship that lasts for decades, other people whose passion would be to run a firm someday because they want to prove that accounting can be done differently.

Those are extremely valid passions and we don't mean to discount them, but we're focusing today on a passion for the law. Learning and applying the law, and we're doing it for two reasons, I think. Number 1, at the AICPA, we're keenly aware of the challenges we have attracting and retaining talent. And specific to retaining talent, we just see all these good people at all levels of experience, leave the industry and as they're on their way out the door, they say, You know what, I got into this industry because I wanted to work in the law.

I wanted to solve complicated problems for sophisticated clients and be forced to think on my feet. Instead, for the first four years of my career, all I've done is prepare the same 30 tax returns every year. I haven't seen anything new in 18 months, I'm bored out of my mind, I'm going to go try something completely different.

That should never happen. It should never happen in this industry because the tax industry, it is a gift for people who want to learn and grow and be challenged. I think we've all been around long enough to know that there's never going to come a day where you close volume two of the code and say, I figured it all out, I know what it all means now.

That day is not coming and so we should never lose people because they're bored, because they're not being challenged. But we do, I assume for two reasons. One is the reason we want to tell ourselves when things aren't going well. It's not to say it's not appropriate sometimes. But this is the reason we want it to be and we want it to be because we're not getting a fair shake.

We're getting a raw deal. We work for the wrong firm or the wrong people, and we're not getting the type of work that we enjoy. That may be possible. If you're in a situation like that, the beautiful thing about the industry today is there's more change available to you than ever before. We're not tied into geographic regions. There are purely remote firms.

You can change your situation in a heartbeat. But there's also a second possibility. That's a possibility that people don't want to embrace as much. But there's a possibility that we're not in a terrible situation, we just haven't let it be known to the people we work for, the people we work with, what we're passionate about.

We haven't shown what's meaningful to us and proven to people that this is the type of work that I want to do. That leads to the second reason we're focusing on this specific type of passion for the law. That reason, April is I'm not Tony Robbins, I'm not a paid motivational speaker. The only thing I have to offer your listeners is my experience, and my passion for this industry, there's no two ways about it is rooted in the law.

I'm not someone who has a passion necessarily for forging client relationships that last 40 years. I'm not someone who ever thought I would run my own firm. My passion is constant intellectual stimulation, growth, learning that law. The only thing I have to offer people until I become a paid motivational speaker someday and go through the five step training program is my life experience, what I've learned in this career.

That's why I just want to address that because I feel bad. I can't tell someone with other types of passions how to reconnect with their passion in tax,  because I only know my experience at this point. But the hope would be that my experience can help some people because I am a good example of someone who got into this industry for a specific reason, like I said, this desire to learn and build expertise in the law. And then quickly went down the wrong path that so many of us do, and I arrived at a crossroads where I was ready to leave this industry four or five years in because I wasn't growing.

I wasn't the person I wanted to be. I wasn't doing the type of work that lured me to this industry and I had to make a conscious decision at that point to say, if I'm going to stick it out in this industry, I am going to make what I'm passionate about the centerpiece of my career and hope that it pays off. That was, again, a proactive conscious decision, and it paid off in ways that I would have never seen coming because what I found is the more I showed people what I was passionate about, the more I made my passion the centerpiece of my career, the more the industry rewarded me with more of the type of work I was passionate about.

We can talk about that process. But that decision being something that I decided to do proactively, I also ended up learning lessons later in my career that were taught to me that I didn't decide to do. That I learned the hard way, that had made all the difference as far as understanding, that in life, in our careers, it's probably best to leave no stone unturned. To try different things, to find out what you're capable of, what you might be passionate about, and just say yes to new opportunities.

It's been a mix of making a proactive decision to invest in myself and we can talk about that. And then being taught through just the harsh reality of life that you're probably best served to say yes to as many opportunities as you can to just constantly move the goal posts on what you love and what you need out of your career to be happy.

With that long rambling introduction....

April Walker: I think it's good. You don't have to convince me because I think some of the themes in your story will apply to a lot of people, even if, like you said, their passion is not necessarily your direction or whatever. Let's get into it.

Tony Nitti: That would be the hope. Like I said, it's always uncomfortable because I only have my own experience to talk about, you end up talking about your own experience the whole time and you just sit there and go, why does anybody want to listen to my path? But listen, I didn't grow up dreaming of being a CPA, and I don't know that many people do.

I didn't really have many dreams growing up as far as a career. The one thing I thought I would want to be was a writer. Because I love to read as a kid and I wanted to be a sports writer, but it's never something I took seriously. Because I decided at a very young age that I did not have anywhere near the talent necessary to be a writer, and so it's just something I never even pursued.

But I went to college undecided as far as a major goes. The only reason I ended up an accounting major is because I told one of my college soccer teammates I was going to go to law school. And he said if you want to get into a good law school, be an accounting major. I'd never even considered accounting, and I don't even know if there's any truth to what he said.

But I didn't want to go to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to go law school because I had no idea what I wanted to be. And I just thought I'd put off that decision as long as I could. I end up this accounting major by accident. But after I get through the cost accounting class and the microeconomics class and those types of things, I eventually land in my first tax class. I'm guessing that other people had a similar experience where I get introduced to the tax law and I say, now this might work for me.

Because even though I didn't know specifically what I wanted my career to be, I knew that I wanted a career that provided an opportunity for constant challenge, constant growth. I wanted that feeling of going to bed every night a little bit smarter than when I woke up in the morning. To me, the idea of a death sentence was any career where after three months or three years or even 30 years, you've seen everything there is to see and you're just going through the motions.

There's nothing wrong with a career like that, it just wasn't going to work for me. The first thing you see when you get introduced to the tax law, this stuff is hard. Hard is good, hard is what I want. We know that in common culture, the tax law is held up as this point of reference for something that's incomprehensible.

Einstein once famously said that the hardest thing for him to figure out was the income tax. Sitting there as a 21-year-old kid, you're like, All right, if this was a challenge for Einstein, it's certainly going to kick my butt for the entirety of my career, and that's what I'm looking for. That's how I ended up choosing a career in tax and taking a job with Arthur Andersen. As I said before, this industry should certainly provide all the opportunities someone like me craves, that wants to grow and learn. You could even argue that if you are making your career in the tax industry, it's almost hard to not be passionate about your career if you're passionate about learning and growth. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. I am living proof of that April because pretty much as soon as I started my career, I fell into a very familiar trap.

You take a guy who was lured to this industry by this desire to learn the law, and then you put him as a new hire at what was at that time, the largest firm in the world, Arthur Andersen. And pairing up with 25 other new hires. What happens. You get in that competitive environment and you say, forget that learning the law stuff. I have one singular focus and it is to move up the ranks as quickly as possible. To climb the ladder as fast as I can, because I will be damned if I am to let Sally make it to senior before me or Johnny make it to manager before me. That became the focus. That became the priority. How do I get promoted? That is largely based sometimes on just playing the game. Shaking hands with the right clients and being close with the right partners. And just making sure everyone knows what you want, when you want to get promoted, being the squeaky wheel. When you get promoted as senior, pushing your staff as hard as you can to meet deadlines. That's what I valued. That's what was important to me was moving up those ranks, and the thing is it worked.

Now four and a half years into my career, I get promoted to manager at what is now PWC, not Arthur Andersen anymore because in the interim there, Andersen collapsed on itself like a dying star after the Enron scandal. Now I'm at PWC, and they promote me to tax manager, and it's supposed to be this cause for celebration. Because they say, you make manager in public accounting. It opens doors that aren't open at any previous level. You want to go make an extra 20, 30 grand and work at another accounting firm, you can do it. You want to go work in a tax department of private company and make some more money while working fewer hours, you can do that, too. Everybody's patting me on the back and they're telling me, this is an impactful day for you. It's a big day in your career. You can go anywhere and do anything now.

The thing is, it wasn't just the biggest day to that point in my career. Looking back at it now a full 20 years later, the day I made manager at PWC was and is the single biggest day of my entire career. Now that I could leave you now on a cliffhanger like Dukes of Hazard. Remember, like, they would be launching off some jump, and they go to commercial and you don't know are they going to be okay? This was the biggest day in my career, April, and you probably wondering why? What was so big about?

April Walker: Yeah, I'm wondering.

Tony Nitti: I went home that night, and all, like, the pats on the back had ended. I'm sitting there, and it hit me like a brick wall. It was this realization that I was a fraud. I know that may sound harsh. I know there are people who are listening that may think you're just being unduly hard on yourself, but I also know there's people listening who are going to say, “I know exactly the feeling he's talking about.” What I mean when I say I was a fraud, April, is it dawned on me that I had just been promoted to tax manager at the second biggest tax firm in the world, and I didn't know a damn thing about the tax law. I didn't.

April Walker: I'm sure you knew some stuff.

Tony Nitti: Well, that's what everyone says, because they say, “How could you get promoted to manager if you didn't know.” I never have read a court case at that point in my life. I didn't know how the code was strung together. You know what I was good at? Do you know why I got promoted? Because I was good at following processes.

April Walker: And competitive, a little bit competitive.

Tony Nitti: But I could take the last year's work papers for the return I was doing and turn them into the current year's workpapers. I knew how to do that, but when I was doing that current year return. When I was adding back 50% of M&E, I wasn't doing it because 274(n) told me to. I was doing it because they did it last year. When I was asking the client, how much of your accrued liability was paid within eight and a half months? I had no idea it's because I was trying to apply the recurring item exception of 1.461-5. I was doing it because that's what they had done last year.

April Walker: SALY, man.

Tony Nitti: SALY. And I know people have shared this experience, but what hit me was that I had been so focused on those processes to get promoted that I had never actually bothered to learn much of anything about the law in which I lived every day. What was terrifying was the realization that I couldn't go anywhere and do anything. It was the exact opposite, April. I was a prisoner at PWC because they knew my limitations. They knew what I could do and couldn't do, and they were content to respond to my constant complaints about promotion by promoting me. But if I wanted to go somewhere else or think about what I had already learned four years into my career. I had learned the lesson that the largest firm in the world can disappear overnight. What if that happened again? And I had to go somewhere else. Could my resume get my foot in the door? Yeah, of course, I could.

Would my undeniable charm possibly land me that job? I'd like to think it would, April, but then what after that? Because how long would it take my new employer to realize, Oh, we just hired a tax manager who can't think critically, can't research and solve problems in the code, can't provide planning advice for clients. You know what he can do? He can take last year's workpapers and turn them into this year's workpapers, and that's about the extent of it. I realized when I say I was a fraud, I realized that I had fallen into a trap of pushing so hard for promotion that I had gotten promoted to a level that I was not capable of delivering on. I hated that feeling. The reason it was the most important day of my entire career is because two things changed that day.

Number 1, I said, no more am I going to measure my success in this industry by my pace of promotion or my pay rate. I'm done with that. Look what it's gotten me. I've gotten everything I've asked for and it's now made me miserable and terrified. From now on, I am going to reprioritize what attracted me to this industry, which was the law, the substance. I'm going to make that the centerpiece of my career. Whatever happens good or bad, I'm going to live with the results. But if I'm going to call myself a tax person, then I'm going to be the best version of a tax person that I can imagine being. To me that meant building technical expertise.

The second thing that happened, and this is a part people aren't going to want to hear quite as much about. I realized that it was nobody's fault but my own. Of course, I wanted to blame PwC, but for what? They gave me everything I asked for. I showed them what I cared about. What I cared about was getting promoted. They promoted. It was not their job to feed me every piece of law I ever wanted to know when I hadn't prioritized that to them.

They were trying to run a business and I helped them run a business. The fact that I hadn't learned what I needed or wanted to learn, that was on me. That's when I made the conscious decision to invest in myself. And April, it really was as dramatic a switch as I'm making it sound here. Four and a half years of my career, zero priority on my passion, learning the law. That day everything changed.

The way it changed is, first things first, desperate times call for desperate measures. And I had a big gap between what I could do and what my resume said I could do. To solve that gap, I applied that day to the graduate tax program at University of Denver. Because I needed to be spoon fed tax law as quickly as I could. But as soon as I showed up in that program, what happened is I realized I had made the right choice in making this the focus of my career. Because I forgot how passionate I was about the law about learning and growing.

Because now I'm sitting there in this class and they're feeding me the law and every day I am going to bed, a little bit smarter than when I woke up in the morning. And I'm saying to myself, this is what attracted me here, this needs to be the focus. Then the second thing is, I'm listening to these professors and I finally know what I want to be in my career. I don't mean a professor, even though that's a great gig as well. I just wanted that substance.

I'm listening to them cite case law from 50 years ago, off the top of their head and reference private letter rulings down to the final digit. And I'm saying, I want to be able to do that, because one, that's where my passion lies, but two, I'm guessing if I can have that substance, I will never have to have this horrible feeling again of feeling like I can't deliver what I should be able to deliver.

That just set me on the right track, but it didn't solve all the problems, obviously. This decision to invest in yourself, it's got to become a career-long process. I graduate from the program. I felt like the program really helped me bridge that gap, but I knew the process was just starting. Coming out of the program, the one thing I know for sure is that, yes, my one true passion in this industry is to live in the law. Let's be honest, we can argue about it, but you said in your intro. If you truly love working in the law all day and solving complicated problems for sophisticated clients, one could argue there's nowhere you can do that at a more regular level than National Tax group for a big Four firm.

That was my dream job back in 2005, when I came out of DU, but it was never possible for me. The reason I say possible is because, look, if we had all the time in the world, we'd be talking about not just pursuing your passions professionally, but also personally. I am a guy that has a lot of passions from a personal perspective. From the time I was 16-years-old, I knew that I was not going to be a happy adult unless I lived in a mountain town where I could be on skis, 70 days a year and riding my mountain bike another 250 days a year. It had to be that way.

When I graduated in 2005, I was already laying the groundwork to move up to the mountains of Colorado in 2006. At that time, if you were going to work in Big Four National Tax, you had to physically sit in DC. It's something I never even sent a resume, never even applied for. Because I knew that even if I were happy professionally, if I were miserable personally, it wasn't going to be a winning formula.

What I did instead was I took a job at a wonderful regional firm called Withum. And they were so wonderful, in fact, that they let me work remotely at a time where remote work was not really prevalent within our industry. But they let me work from Aspen, even though they were an East Coast firm. But we finally get now to the lesson, how? How do you connect with your passion for your industry? Knowing that my passion was learning the law, now starting at a brand new firm. I don't have anybody spoon feeding me tax law every day. How do I unlock the secret to a happy career? That secret is not really a secret. You want a happy career, do more of the work you love and less of the work you don't.

How do I get my hands on this type of work I love and the decision that I made. There are people listening who are at that crossroads right now who may have to say, it sounds like a lot of work, but I get it. Maybe it's time for me to make that decision as well to invest in myself. Was that if I can't bring myself to Big Four National Tax and do the type of work I love, I am going to find a way to bring the type of work I love to me. I realized that the responsibility is mine to show this new firm that I'm passionate about working in the law and that I'm capable of working in the law.

Part of that happens obviously on the job. Part of it happens by doing diligent research and coming up with good answers and thinking outside the box. But I knew that I needed to really prove to everybody where my passion lies so I could get more of that work. What I did, and this was the thrust of our AICPA class, is I instituted this three-step process that I had been using for the last 20 years and just repeating over and over again, and it has served me better than I ever could have dreamed. But what I did was Step 1, I'd say, I am going to learn everything I can about some narrow area of the law.

I would pick an area of the law, usually one that I found that the industry was struggling with. What I mean by that is we all know there's certain things we do in the tax world that all of us do, and we apply it all the time for our tax returns. We never truly understand why we're doing what we're doing. That was back to what we said earlier, the same as last year's stuff. Perfect example would be allocation of partnership liabilities under Section 752. We all fill out a K-1 on a 1065 and allocate recourse and non-recourse liabilities. But how many people truly understand what makes a liability recourse and non-recourse or how those liabilities should be allocated?

I would say, Sec. 752. I am going to learn everything I could about 752. This is a part people don't want to hear, but it would happen outside work hours. I would read the code, I would read the regs, I would read the editorial content, I would read the key cases and the rulings and things like that. And I would read and re-read and make notes and do outlines until I felt like I understood what it was I was reading. Then I would move on to Step 2. Step 2 is, how do I cement this knowledge? I would sit down and say, if I truly understand all that stuff I just read, I should be able to explain it to other people.

I would sit down and I would write up everything I just read. Try to re-package and re-purpose the law in a way that would make someone who read what I was writing understand. Maybe some of your listeners know that later and we'll get into this, I would go on to write for more national publications. That's not what I'm talking about here in 2006, April. I didn't have a platform. When I say I'm writing about the law, I was quite literally putting together an email for my firm's tax department that absolutely nobody asked for. I would summarize 752. I would put together a PDF decision tree and flow chart and show how we should be allocating things.

I was doing it for two reasons. The reason I like to tell people is I wanted to help my firm understand 752. But the true selfish reason I was doing it is because I wanted to understand that law, and I wanted to show everyone else that I understood that law and that I was passionate about that law. I would send out this email to my firm's tax department explaining 752. Going through that process of writing it up really did cement that knowledge for me because I had to think about the law in a different way from reading it to say, how do I now explain it?

April Walker: How did they react to those emails?

Tony Nitti: You could almost hear the eyerolls in the system. You can almost hear, who is this kid? What is he doing? I wasn't even a kid at that point, I was near 30. Here's the thing. We're going to talk some life lessons here, but I was talking to somebody after the presentation at AICPA. Sometimes the key to success in any career is just being willing to do the thing other people won't. What I mean by that is those books, the code, the regs, we all have access to them. What I was doing is I was diving in and saying, I'm going to figure out what they say and what they mean. Other people probably rolled their eyes when I would summarize law that nobody asked for. But you know what those same people would do when they had a 752 issue? Who were they coming to?

April Walker: For sure.

Tony Nitti: Well, the only other option was to open the books themselves.

That's what I mean about doing what other people won't. That's not everyone's priority and I'm not here to say it's right or wrong, but the reality is when I showed people that I'm willing to open the books, I started to get that work because other people aren't. Not everybody, but there are just people who say, I'd rather just push it to someone who enjoys that stuff and that became a common theme of my career where people come to me and say, I know you love this research stuff, so I'm going to give it to you. You probably give it to me because you don't want to do the research stuff. That's fine by me because I do want to do it. I do want to do this work. To your point, there are eye rolls, but those eye rolls, I'm sure, were the same people who'd say, I got this question. I know this dude seems to care about this stuff. I'm going to go to him and let him answer it for me, which is exactly what I was hoping for. After that writing step, I would go to Step 3.

Step 3 was the uncomfortable step. Because as much as I enjoy writing, and I know this sounds strange because we're doing a podcast about a presentation I gave, but speaking in public, not for me. We're going to talk more about this later, but terrifies me. And I would go into my partner's office, and I'd say, you see that email that I sent around about 752? I need to teach it. I need to teach here at the firm - some lunch and learn local office or the firm's annual update, but I need to teach it. Why would I ask to teach if I was terrified of it? It's because I was terrified of it. Because if I want to know that law, there is no greater motivator than fear. If I'm going to stand in front of a room full of my peers or some people who've been practicing 20 years longer than me, I was really going to make sure I understood that law really well.

To this day, I don't give a presentation that I don't walk around my house and rehearse to air, just to time it out, to make sure I'm comfortable with the transitions, to make sure I know the law. Because that fear still exists from a public speaking perspective. I would go through that process, and by the time it was done, by the time I was done handling that fear and speaking in front of -  these are tiny rooms. These are my firm. These are not strangers to me, but by the time I was done, I would say, that area of the law, that is in my back pocket. I feel like I know that well, and more importantly, my firm now knows that I know that well.

All those questions are going to come to me. I would just repeat that process, every year, not every year. I'm just repeat it over and over again with deducting accrued liabilities or 263(A) or prepaid expenses. I would just repeat the process if the firm. Read about it, write about it, teach about it. The more I'm doing it, the more they can see where my passion lies and that I'm capable. To the point where 2008ish, the firm decides to launch its version of a National Tax Group and in addition to our mutual friend Brian Lovett, who's still at Withum, and I get to be one of the founding members of that National Tax Group. Now all of a sudden, I have brought national tax to me and my passion is much more of the focus of my career. As I said, that's the recipe, right? Do more of what you like and less of what you don't and that's what I'm getting now as a return on my investment.

That's where the proactive decisions I made to help improve my career, that's pretty much the end of them. From there, it's just life has taught me because now you get to 2008, April and my career is going really well. I'm doing the type of work I love to do. Personally, I am living in Aspen and like I said, I'm on skis 70 days a year. I'm living on my mountain bike all spring. Life is good.

April Walker: That's when life smacks you in the face.

Tony Nitti: Exactly. That's when the headache started, and I'm your audience with the entire story, obviously. But after one particularly brutal race in Aspen, I was rushed to the emergency room with a terrible migraine-type headache. But I imagine more intense than most migraines because eventually, what they would figure out, it took a little bit of time, was that I had an aneurysm in my brain. Most people know somebody impacted by brain aneurysm and those stories typically do not have happy endings. The reality is once an aneurysm leaks blood into the brain cavity, 70% of people are dead by the next morning. As my surgeon so eloquently put it, of the other 30%, half of them will wish they were by the next morning because they're permanently disabled. This is something where I went from thinking I was invincible at 33 years old to absolutely certain that I was going to die. The only reason we bring this up here is because I had to face my mortality, and I had to go in for 8 hours of surgery to save my life. I had that morning to lay on that metal table before they wheeled me in for the surgery. They were very clear about the risks.

There's a 5% chance I go into vasospasm and I never wake up. There's a 15% chance if I wake up, I've got memory problems, right side of the body problems, cognitive deficit, and that's terrifying. Laying there that morning, I know it sounds cliche, but looking back at 33 years I'd spent on the planet, I wasn't spending any of that morning regretting the things I had done that maybe didn't go the way I wanted him to do. I was spending the time regretting the things I had said I was going to try, but I hadn't tried yet. It was eating away. Like, I thought I had so much more time, and now the prospect that either I don't wake up or I wake up a different person and I never get to find out some of those things about myself. It was not something you ever want to have to face. That the tomorrow you thought you had may never arrive. Now, obviously, I had a good surgeon.

April Walker: Given that that was in 2008?

Tony Nitti: Yeah. Doctor Jefferson. He fixed me right up. I knew within 48 hours that all the Simpsons references, all the code sections, they were all still in there. But I did come out of it a changed person. Not cognitively, necessarily, but I came out of it saying, I'm going to live the rest of my life slightly different than I did before, starting with the fact that I'm leaving no stone unturned. This is what we were talking about earlier. Anything I've been curious about - personal, professional, could I be good at it? Would I enjoy it? I am going to find out. I'm going to say yes, because I just want to know. It started simply enough. I wasn't even in my professional capacity, like silly little thing. I spent my whole childhood saying I wanted to learn how to play guitar. I never bothered to learn guitar. I had a year, basically year it took me to recover from that surgery before I could get back to my normal life, and I spent that year playing ten years worth of guitar. But what happens is you realize, I love this. I thought I would enjoy it.

Tony Nitti: I do enjoy it. I shouldn't let other things slip past me like this. I should try everything. Within my career, it's now 2009, and I've made partner at Withum. There's no impetus to try new things in my career. I've gotten the last promotion I'm never going to get. But that's not what's driving me at that point. What's driving me is this primal realization that, life is fleeting and so I'm going to go find out whatever I want to find out about. We go back to how we started this conversation. Growing up, the only thing I ever thought I would enjoy was being a writer. I had been doing those emails to my firm, but I never tried anything bigger than that because I just assumed I didn't have the ability. What bothered me after the surgery is I never even risked it enough for someone to tell me I wasn't any good. I just decided it for myself. I said, look, I'm never going to write the Great American novel. I'm not that talented, but they say write what you know and I know some things about the tax law.

April Walker: Sure.

Tony Nitti: I said, I just want to find out. I want to find out what I'm capable of. The next time I went through that three step process, it was about a court case that came out on S corp reasonable comp. I said, well, this time, even though no one's pushing for it, no one at my firm cares, it's not anything anyone else values, I'm going to find out if I can get this thing published externally.

I wrote up the entire case history of S-Corp Reasonable comp for The Tax Adviser. I wrote and rewrote and I edited, I reedited and I eventually submitted it for publishing and they published it as a feature article. What I had learned in that process was not that I was a talented writer, but that I was as passionate about it as I thought I would be. I loved it. I love the process of trying to explain the law to somebody else in the hopes that the light bulb goes off and they go, I never understood that before, now I understand.

Of course, I looked from a selfish perspective having to learn the law that well, to read all of the cases that had ever been settled. It was just a really gratifying process, but the problem is, my firm's not paying me to sit around and write articles all day, so it's a bit of a bummer. Because I had done it, I loved it. But how do I get to do more of it? This is where the worlds collide between leaving no stone unturned, but also investing in yourself. Where the article, it went well.

Tony Nitti: It went well to the point where The Tax Adviser asked me to write a couple more articles, and I did. Then what happened is just if you invest in yourself, I firmly believe good things happen. You get a return on that investment. CCH reaches out to my firm and they're like. Hey, we see this writing this kid's doing, it's pretty darn good and we need someone to co author a treatise on consolidated returns and we'll pay your firm for six months of his time if he can contribute a bunch of chapters to this treatise.

Tony Nitti: My firm comes to me and says, CCH wants you to write a treatise on consolidated returns, you want to do it? Like any rational human being, every instinct in my body said, absolutely not. Why would I want to write a consolidated returns treatise, it's terrible. It's the worst area of the law. But the point is, who am I to say no? I'm passionate about writing. I want to be challenged, and it's just this idea of leave no stone unturned.

I'm going to write it just to see if I can write it and to see if good things come of it. Now my firm is getting paid for me to write, so they allow me to do more of the type of work I'm passionate about. I got to write that treatise, which is probably the last time I thought about a consolidated return. But it just things snowballed. From there, April and now the editor at Forbes, Janet Novack, she's reading my writing. She reaches out to me more than day. I'd never met her, or heard her.

She reaches out to me and says. Hi, I like your style of writing. Would you move your platform over to Forbes? For a regional firm like Withum at that time, the exposure was tremendous. Of course, we'll do it and so that's how I land at Forbes, where now anyone who ever read anything I wrote on Forbes, I'm not making up this three step process. Because the entirety of my writing on Forbes, for the most part, was this, like trying to explain complicated areas of the law. There was that whole Tax Geek Tuesday.

That's all it was. Breaking down things that no one was insane enough to want to write about because it's so dry and so complicated, like opportunity zones or 263 A or whatever it may be. Now all your listeners know my deep dark secret, which is it may have looked like I was doing all that writing because I wanted to help the industry, which obviously I'm joking. Obviously, I did. But why else was I doing it? Because I wanted to learn that stuff. I wanted to build that expertise and hope that it would pay off.

One of the things we'll finish with in a couple of minutes is how that ended up paying off with my dream job. But even at that point, even with the writing, and this comes full circle to how this class came to be for us because of what happened in Engage this summer. But at that point, we're talking 2011. I've never done public speaking. Outside of my firm, outside of a lunch and learn, I've never stood in front of a room full of strangers and taught.

What happened was you do enough writing, eventually, someone's going to come to you and say, you're decent at explaining a tax law, wouldn't you like to try it, like in person. So you don't have to trust that someone's going to read your writing and understand it all, first try, things like that? My friend Mark Friedlich at CCH approached me and said, "We do this conference every year. Come speak at the conference.".

Again, every fiber of my being said, Mark, absolutely not. Because I am someone who has got more than my share of social anxiety. I just do, I'm an introvert. There's a reason I love having my nose in the books. The idea of standing in front of a room full of strangers, it terrifies me to this day. I just learned to deal with it a little bit better.

Then, of course, there's the impostor syndrome that comes with it. I'm like, why would anybody want to listen to me? There's so many people who know this stuff better than I do. I said, "Mark, it is not for me." Because as much as I always knew I would enjoy writing, I knew I would hate public speaking. He just said, "Look, just give it a try. What's the worst that could happen?" Eventually he's right. Who am I to say no to this?

The whole point of this second act I'm getting in life, is say yes, find out what you're capable of, find out what you might enjoy. I flew to Arizona, April and I did 90 minutes on the tax consequences of foreclosures and short sales. That tells you.

April Walker: That's very specific.

Tony Nitti: It's 2011. This is where it's getting real for the crash and so everybody's dealing with foreclosures and short sales. I went in there and I talked for 90 minutes, and let me tell you, it was every bit as awful as I thought it was going to be. But when I walked out of that room, I knew my goals in my career. I knew my passion in my career had changed, had evolved. Because I walked out of that room saying, I need to do more of this. But why? If it was so terrifying, why?

Because it was so gratifying, Just to have even one person come up to you afterwards and say, "I struggled to understand that now. The light bulb went off. I get it." This desire to communicate and help other people and explain the law in a way that people can understand. It's fun to do it in writing. Maybe not that efficient. You have to trust that they're going to read the whole thing, not have any follow up question. But with speaking, I could read their faces. Are they following along?

Do they look lost or are they tilting their head to the side like my pup Maggie does in some futile attempt to understand what I'm saying to her? I'm like, I'm not built for this, but I need to do it. For me to be the best version of myself, the happiest version of myself in my career, I need to do this thing regularly that terrifies me because the reward is so great.

That ability to repackage and repurpose the law in a way that connects with other people in the industry. Of course, the byproduct of learning it so well. If I'm going to stand in front of the room and talk about foreclosures and short sales, that's another thing I'm going to get to add to my quiver as far as areas of expertise.

It's funny, because like I said, growing up, I knew I'd be passionate about writing, and I was. Knew I'd be terrified to speak publicly, and I am. But I'm just as passionate about it now as I am the writing. One final story to just tie everything together and just show you how. Look, I don't know. Maybe my experience is unique. Maybe we need one of those things to run on the bottom of the podcast that says. What is it? Past performances are not  indicative of future performances?

April Walker: Future yeah?

Tony Nitti: I don't know. Maybe it's just unique, but this right place, right time. The rewards I've gotten on the decision to invest in myself from Withum's willingness to create a national tax group, to Forbes noticing my writing and bringing me on. Just the little things that have impacted the course of my career. It's remarkable because listeners out there, especially the younger variety, they're going to think it's these big decisions that I stress out about that are going to impact the course of my career. Which job do I take or what area of the law do I focus on? But my goodness, it's sometimes the smallest things.

What changed the course of my career was a decision in 2013 to waste my Thanksgiving weekend. Because 2013, right around this time, the IRS issues regulations under 1411, the net investment income tax regs. I didn't want to necessarily spend my Thanksgiving weekend learning about those regs and writing about them, but it was new. I love writing about new stuff. I love trying to explain to people how to read [how the] law works and so I said. I'm going to sit down and go through the three step process, at least the first two.

For now, I'm going to learn about it, I'm going to write about it. I wrote about the net investment income tax regs. It was no different than any other article. There's nothing special about it. The only thing that was special is a couple of days later, I get an email from the attorney at the IRS who wrote those regulations.

April Walker: Spoiler.

Tony Nitti: Felt encouraging. He just reached out to me to say, here's what you got right. Here's what you got wrong. I want to send a unified message out to the people. You know [David] Kirk, so there's probably some expletives thrown in there.

April Walker: Absolutely.

Tony Nitti: I just thought, that's so admirable that this guy would take that level of ownership over his work. Dave and I would become what I would loosely call friends. I think we met in person once at National Tax, but other than that, we maybe connected once a year for the next decade. But the point is, this return on investment, that decision to write that article would change everything. Because 10 years later, Kirk is not at the IRS anymore.

Now he's at EY running one of the National Tax groups, and one of his partners is retiring and unbeknownst to me, he's been keeping track of my career the entire time and he's seeing this investment I'm making in myself. He's seeing my passion for learning the law and whatever small ability I might have to explain that law to other people. He's saying. That's the guy I want. He's going to his bosses and saying. This is the person I want to come in as the new partner in EY National Tax.

In 2021, he reaches out to me. And I was working for an amazing firm at the time, Rubin Brown, and I loved my job.  But he reaches out to me and he says. Come work with me and work in this National Tax group. The opportunity, obviously, to work with Dave Kirk is pretty much all you need to hear. But of course, me being a pain, the first thing I say is, do I have to move to DC?

Now, this is the benefit of the post pandemic world. We can do this remotely from Aspen and so he's offering me my dream job, April. What's amazing about that is I spent a couple months agonizing over that decision. I very nearly turned it down. Why?

Because, honestly, I was scared. I couldn't do it. It was back to almost that feeling of being a fraud again, but just feeling, I don't know. This guy has forgotten more about the law than most people know. And I had that impostor syndrome kick in again. Can I do it? Am I capable? Who knows? Maybe I'm not and the firm has just been lying to me for the last three years.

The point is, I almost didn't take it and then I sat down and said, hold on a second. What is it that makes you not want to take this job? I'm scared because I think I might have to learn a lot to be able to hang.

Then I'm like, wait a minute. What is it you're most passionate about in your career?  Where you're forced to learn a lot so that you can hang? Finally, it just became obvious to me that I had to take the opportunity because this was my dream. My dream to just live in the law all day, every day, and it came about in the most bizarre fashion.

April, I didn't submit a resume because it didn't mesh with my personal goals. But then this decision to invest in myself, which eventually led to Forbes, which got me in front of Kirk. It's just crazy. Crazy to think how it all unfolded. The message for someone listening out there, is I was no kid when Dave Kirk called me.

I was 45 years old. 45, to land my dream job in this industry and patience is certainly a virtue. The bigger virtue is just understanding some of the things we talked about here today. Which is, look, no one wants to hear this. The easy way out is to say, I'm in a bad situation, no one's treating me fairly. I'm not learning what I want to learn.

Look, there are bad situations out there. Like I said, if you're in one, it's pretty easy to move. Problems are going to follow you even to good situations, if you don't take ownership over your own career and if you don't say at a certain point, it's no one's job to make me the professional that I want to be other than myself. That's not easy. It comes with a lot of extra work.

You think I wanted to be reading Bittker & Eustis on the beach on a weekend back when I was fielding materials a lot? Of course, I didn't. The BNA portfolio at night? No, but I was making an investment in the hope that it would pay off. The way it paid off, like I said, was doing more of the type of work I love, which is all you can possibly ask for.

It's not an easy thing to communicate to people - as much as we work in this job, sometimes you have to you go above and beyond to show people what you're passionate about and that you're capable of handling it. If you don't show, no one knows and you can just get lost in the shuffle and end up being that person we talked about that's doing the same tax returns five years in a row and not growing and not learning.

If you haven't shown people that you're not content with that. If you haven't shown people where your passions lie, human nature is such that firms of any size are just going to say, April just keeps doing what we ask for every year. We're just going to keep asking her to do it.

April Walker: I think that's great. It's funny when you were starting to tell your story about that you hadn't learned anything. I had a question in my mind, like, don't you think that's partially the firm's responsibility that they hadn't invested in you to send you enough trainings or things? Then you answered the question. That's a personal responsibility thing.

Tony Nitti: Perfect example of that. They did send me to trainings. I can remember most of those trainings, and everyone knows someone like this. Being the guy who spent half of the trainings outside the room, doing work for my senior or my manager back in the office because I didn't value the training.

What I valued was getting promoted. If my senior manager said, I need you to do something right now, even though I was at a training at St. Charles for Andersen, I was going to walk out of that room and get that work done for them.

 

Everybody wants a villain. Life is always easier with a villain. PWC was no villain. Because it's not like I asked them to teach me and they refused to. I showed them what I valued and they rewarded that. If I only valued promotion, they gave me promotion.

Since that point in my career, when I showed my employers that I valued the type of work I love, I valued being challenged, I valued living in the law, I have gotten rewarded with more of that type of work. I refuse to believe my experience is a one-off, that it's completely unique. I definitely got some very lucky breaks at some key points in time.

Then I got dealt a harsh lesson that I wouldn't wish upon anybody. I don't want anyone at 33 years old to have to face their mortality. But that was an impetus to say, I got to find out more of what I'm capable of. And that opened up doors that I never dreamed, April, that I would spend as much of my career doing.

When I say passionate about my love for writing, I just never thought it would even be an option in a career in tax. Then it ended up being a huge part of what I did for so long. I refuse to believe that that's unique to me. I think that anybody who says, I'm willing to do what the other person isn't. I'm willing to get into these books, learn what they say, show people that I care about what they say, and that I can communicate them to other people, that really good things are going to follow.

April Walker: Writing might not be your passion, but I think the message today, as we're wrapping up, figure out what that passion is. It doesn't matter how old you are. You can try to figure it out and do more. I just read this book that was talking about -  do the next right thing. The big picture might feel huge and scary, but just whatever the next step is, just do the next right thing.

Tony Nitti: The way I've always described that too, April, is you shouldn't at any point in your life be finished finding out what your passions are. That's the whole point, is you should be a fundamentally different person at 35, that you're at 25 and 45 that you're at 35. You should be saying yes to opportunities that help you unearth new passions and new things that you are capable of doing.

Because like I said, there is no scenario, and people who know me well know what I mean, where I should be making career out of public speaking, doing as much public speaking as I do. It is so foreign and uncomfortable to me. But I look past that, because I'm passionate about it and so I find a way to make it work through truly ridiculous levels of preparation.

April Walker: Some might say you're good at it. I'll give you a little spoiler. Your two sessions were the top rated at National Tax, so there you go.

Tony Nitti: Now, you have to edit out earlier today when I said, we're doing this without the safety net of the evaluation.

April Walker: I didn't want to tell you in advance.

Tony Nitti: See that. Again, but that is proof that anybody, if I can make any career out of public speaking, anybody can. That's why you got to try. That was the thing at ENGAGE that started all this, is when we were just talking about say yes to opportunities because you know what, if you are as bad as you think you're going to be and you hate it as much as you think you will, you haven't lost anything. You just go back to not doing it anymore, but you might unearth new passions that move the goalposts on what you need out of your career. That's a goal in life to keep growing and keep finding things that really drive you. Hopefully, April, something we said resonates with the listeners, but I guess we'll find out.

April Walker: I hope so too. This is our last podcast episode of the year. You can listen to it at the end of the year. I used to love your resolution articles. I think that was a Forbes thing. I love these articles. I miss those articles and people come up to you still all the time and are like, I really miss those articles.

Tony Nitti: What's funny is the last thing I ever wrote for Forbes was one of those resolution articles and I don't know. Maybe I wrote 200, 300 articles for Forbes over the 10 years, but the last thing is my favorite thing I ever wrote because it had absolutely nothing to do with tax. I had to do with my pup Macy.

April Walker: I know.

Tony Nitti: You knew well and Macy was on her way out of the world at the time and just to be able to even have a platform to write about my pup, that is still the one thing I've ever written that I go back and read. I don't hate this. I don't want to change anything.

April Walker: That's good. Thank you so much, Tony. This was so fun. I know our listeners will enjoy it. Also, again, thanks a bunch. This is April Walker from the AICPA Tax section. This community is your go to source for technical guidance and resources designed, especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants.

You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much.  Please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax and find our other episodes. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful holiday season and come back and 2025 is going to be an exciting tax year. I just feel it. Thanks for listening.

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