In this episode, Brian Davis, owner of One Stop CPA, discusses how technology has transformed the way his CPA firm operates and interacts with clients. Brian highlights the importance of using technology to provide a top-notch, virtual client experience. He shares insights on tools that have enhanced client engagement and streamlined his firms’ operations. What you’ll learn from this episode: Examples of ways to use technology to enhance a client’s experience How remote work and serving clients virtually has worked for his firm The benefits of offering subscription model billing The importance of investing in client education as you introduce new tools and processes AICPA resources Tech stack wars in 2024 | Reimagining Your Tax Practice — With the amount of technology products out in the market, how do they perform in reality? Hear from Jason Staats on the latest products available for practice management and more on this archived Reimagining Your Tax Practice session. Transitioning to a tax-focused CPA financial planner | Reimagining Your Tax Practice — Tax return compliance is continuing to become more of a commodity. Your clients see you as their trusted adviser and ask about a range of topics that affect their financial well-being. In this Reimagining Your Tax Practice archived session, learn more about practitioners who offer financial planning services and how that has impacted their practices. Transforming Your Business Model…Technology — The Private Companies Practice Section (PCPS) is developing tools around technology designed to help firms not only identify elements of their current business model that may be holding them back but also offering solutions to help them adapt in this changing environment. Transcript April Walker: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the AICPA Tax Section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax, facing the profession. I'm April Walker, Lead Manager for the Tax section, and I'm today with Brian Davis. Brian is the CEO of One Stop CPA, which is a firm that focuses on tax, tax planning, and advisory. We're going to hear more about that. Brian, let's start off with telling me a little bit about your firm and how you got started and what you think, are your distinguishing characteristics. Brian Davis: Definitely. Well, excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Definitely, so my firm is One Stop CPA. It's a traditional small firm. We do compliance. I'm a CPA. We do tax compliance, tax planning, we do accounting services. It's a team of five, including myself, some onshore, some offshore. And the thing that I think distinguishes our product in our service that we deliver to our clients is how we deliver it. We use technology and pair it with insights. We pair it with traditional advisory things that we're giving the clients, and we try to give them that feel as if they're getting in person, top-notch experience because all of the clients that we work with are all virtual. So that gives us the ability to work with a remote team. It gives us the ability to deliver the clients nationwide. I think it's a little, I think it's definitely helped me grow business, get me a little bit more work-life balance, all the above. April Walker: All positive things. So for those who are listening, I mean, I think COVID taught us a lot of things - that we don't always have to be in person, although it's lovely to be in person. I love being next to people. But we don't have to be in person with our staff, with our clients. Maybe talk a little bit about that, how you still get that really great relationship with your clients and your staff, even being remote. Brian Davis: Sure, yeah. Definitely. COVID changed a lot within my firm. I went out on my own in 2017. This was pre-COVID. I went out for a lot of the reasons that are popular now, but back then it was not as popular as it's becoming. The commute to work, having to meet in person just to get a tax return signed, mailing off things. All these different things, I saw them as, these are not the values that customers appreciate. They're looking for me to help them do so many other things, save them, strategize on how to lower their tax bill, how to help them grow their business, how to go for an exit one day. I want to sell this, we can have that on a phone call. I could actually deliver even better results to you. I just started to think, before COVID, it was a little bit tougher to sell clients on this service. It was a lot of teaching. You have to tell your client, hey, well, you have to e-sign your returns, so go to your email. And it's like, I'm not used to this. This is not how we do things with our last accountant. After COVID, of course, that exploded. A lot of clients would reach out to us and say, yeah, if you could get this done for us remotely, that'd be great. So from there, I also switched over to the subscription model around  March 2020. When we made that switch because it's hey, well, we want to serve you guys, and we want to give you all the things that you now need to do remotely. So technology is a big part of that. The way you educate your clients, the way they feel. Because you're losing a little bit of the touch when they're not in person. I can't offer you a drink when you come to the office, but there's even things now where you could send a client a gift card. Here's a five dollar Starbucks gift card, so we could out grab a coffee. There's all these cool little ways where you can just make that customer feel so good, even though we're doing it all the time. April Walker: We're going to talk a little bit about while we're here together, talk about technology. So maybe talk a little bit about where you see those biggest friction points with your clients and how you think technology or how you've explored technology helping some of those friction points. Brian Davis: Definitely. I made all the mistakes when I started my firm. I would do compliance-only work. I would do tax prep only, and I would have different segments of clients that I would deal with in different ways. Well, this person likes to sign in person. This person likes to drop off a package in the mail. When you look into this technology, when we look at things as a firm, it's always well, these clients wouldn't adopt it. These clients wouldn't like it. I wouldn't be able to attract these style of clients. But when you meet a client, and you say, hey, this is our portal. This is how we do business. Take a good look at it, give them a free trial, maybe if you're seriously considering them, and then try to do a test. Did you see this message that I just sent you there? Here's a template. Did you get it? Cool. So that's how we communicate. Believe it or not, nowadays, more and more people, no matter their level of skill and technology, if you could simplify it for them, they appreciate that. Whenever I'm looking at new technology, I'm looking for, I love the new features and how I could make all this money using it and save time. But it's also, will the client feel a disconnect or will they feel like I'm throwing them into the tech dark hole? You could lose a good client because they don't feel that personal touch. Even though we're investing in different technologies and moving to greater things that help us on the back end, we also want to at the same time, if not even more important, when you're making sales, when you're delivering, you want to make them feel comfortable with your tools. If your tool is so hard for them to navigate, it's going to create that for them. April Walker: That's right. What are some exciting things that you have implemented lately around technology? Brian Davis: Definitely. Well, I'll highlight two of my favorites. They know that they're my favorites. TaxDome is my client portal that I use. Before TaxDome, I was doing the spreadsheet and notepad method of workflow management, which is not the right way. April Walker: Maybe in Excel spreadsheets. Brian Davis: Excel spreadsheets. Before that and then implementing TaxDome, it helped me map out how I want to grow the team, how I see myself. Like, which task within this job that we're doing, do I want to, one day off load to somebody, so that I could free up more time for myself to do sales, do client services, help people do like advisory one on one because that's where the value is to the client. They don't care if you're in the back turning out bookkeeping and entering in numbers on your 10 key. They want to know the results, and it's the client experience. So TaxDome is great because when I started it, I was slow to implement. I would pick a few clients, test out on myself. I'm a client, too. I would test out my firm's tax return process and say, Hey, what went smoothly? What can we tweak and make better before we go live with this with everyone? But the feedback I would get from clients is this is so great. I love how easy that was. It's on the app. I can download an app. Everybody knows how to download an app. April Walker: Most everybody, yeah. Brian Davis: Most people. If you're going to work with us, you got to be able to e-sign your return. That's one of the things TaxDome makes. I was getting the feedback that clients really like the experience, and I like the back office side of it, which there are other options out there. I just know that doing TaxDome, clients loved it. Another one is spotlight reporting. A lot of clients are used to seeing their QuickBooks reports black and white, ledger. What's more fun than watching that with the client and just going through a list of fixed assets? Here's your security department. They don't want to see that. You got to make these numbers kind of come alive for the clients have a discussion. Spotlight Reporting connects directly to your QuickBooks file, your Zero files, and you can create your own advisory dashboards. A lot of clients I have will ask, well, how I'm I on pace compared to last year? I would say, well, let me run that report on QuickBooks. Let me do the prior year comparison. Now, I have a custom bar chart, and it shows month by month, how you're doing this year, how you're doing versus last year. Another one that I made was a EBITA monitor. It looks like an EKG machine. When I'm showing doctors, hey, this is your EBITA monitor, I say, this is like a heart rate monitor. When you're having these conversations, it's better to have a nice report that you can get them to collaborate with you because there's nothing more boring than reading a report and everybody's just staring at you, and that comes across. Spotlight's another one. When I show people the reports, it's like, this is great. It really answers my questions, and now we could move forward to the future planning conversation where I could make the big bucks with advisory. April Walker: Sure. I want to talk about advisory. Let's lean into advisory. Did you start doing advisory right away, or how did you implement that and what have you seen, the changes and maybe the client satisfaction? I don't want to lead the witness. Brian Davis: Like I said, I made all the mistakes when I started our firm. I was doing advisory, but I wasn't charging for it. I was doing tax compliance. I was charging by the form. This is your form. You need some bookkeeping write-up work. But clients would reach out. Hey, we have some questions surrounding the tax, not necessarily doing the tax return. We have some year-round support questions. We want to go buy a car. What's the best way to do it. I got to come up with a way where I could not just be quick with them in five seconds, get them off the phone. No, I want to actually help you walk through this process. Clients would rely on us for those things. It's not just for the compliance. That's part of why I branded my company one stop, because I want them to feel like it's not just that we're coming to do your tax return and bill you by the form. We're adding that other piece, the advisory, to take advantage of different things. That's under the umbrella of your subscription. Now taking on clients, that's part of the package. You have to sign up for some piece of the advisory and the taxes will come along with it, but you can't do this tax prep. The advisory journey, it's been a journey for me, for sure. It's still, always working on ways to make it better. But things like TaxDome puts them at ease with the compliance part. All your stuff's there. You get audited. You have your forms and your backup. We saved it in a portal. If you want to look at some reporting, we can, support an advisory conversation with these nice cool. People like pretty colors. It's the colors and the pictures. April Walker: Hundred percent that's what I like, too. On that, with this subscription advisory and learning how to charge for that, how has that evolved? Where are you now now with that? Because I feel like that a lot of firms that I talked to just cannot figure it out- cannot figure out value pricing, cannot get away from time and billing, you know, everyone has a different answer, and there's not one right thing. Brian Davis: I mean, the subscription model, of course, it has its little pieces where you, it has to make sense for what you're offering. Just because you subscribe doesn't mean I'm going to go back and do your five years of catch up filings and year to date books. There's also those one time services. Usually when we meet a new client, there's going to be some advisory diagnostic assessment fee. That's just we try to be as upfront about the pricing that we're going to charge them going forward, so we can see do even want to take this client on for this one time service. It's been a journey to get there. As you get more revenue, you can make these decisions. April Walker: A little more picky. Brian Davis: You could be a little bit more picky, but that's been the journey. The price I advertise and go for now is probably 10X what I was thinking in the beginning. Because I was going off of what I think the customers are ready to pay. But if I explain it to them, so you can't just go straight into the pricing conversation. I heard it from the conference before one of the speakers, it's malpractice to just price without a diagnosis. That's one of the medical rules, the medical oaths. We have to diagnose what you're looking for, to put you in the right package. But I do the three tiers of package thing, but the way I do it is I show the big package, the good one. First all the cool features. Sounds great, right? Well, these are the other options, but once I've showed you this one, you're sold. I showed you all the tech that comes with it, and now I start to piece away some of the reporting. Hey, you can't get those cool pretty colors, you want to have that. April Walker: You get the simple quickbooks report. Brian Davis: How can I give you support for those big questions? If you're going through, when I got my start, I got lucky. I got a couple of clients that were in the medical profession that were doing deals where they were getting ready to sell their practices. I got a first hand experience of what a private equity investor would come in and say, Here's our due diligence questions. I said, "Well, you know, half of these are financial statements." I could pull those out. But there's some other things they're asking you that the customer wasn't even tracking. It's these cool reports bring that alive. It shows them, okay? We can support you in more than just getting your taxes and having the financials for the bank and the IRS. We have it so that you can make better decisions and if you're going to add or remove shareholders, this supports that, as well. That's part of the part of the pricing well, as far as pricing, it's all based on what we're including so you got to have your packages premade and a lot goes into that. But one thing I would do is try to not my prices and packages have one name. The name explains  what [it is]. Advanced, starter and small. And there's limited seats on small. We're probably already booked. That's how you propose it to the clients. So you are either going to get one of the two. I'm not going to give them all the options. I'm going to recommend one and if they decide they want the smaller one, well, hey, we'll take them on maybe, and you could grow into the big package. But a lot of times, what I'm seeing, is sometimes I meet with good clients and go through this process, the intake proposal, the discovery assessment, and they realize, no, you don't get this advanced. You're not going to get the results you're asking me for. April Walker: What they really need. Brian Davis: Because it's not a solution that everybody explains and a lot of times when I meet clients, they don't have this. All virtual -  nobody's using the same tech stack as me. It's a little bit of training and education that you're doing. So what I do like about some of these software vendors now, they're working with us accountants to help us sell in. Here's how you can grow your advisory practice and just the idea of it. Well, being that we're talking to just smaller firms, smaller firm practitioners and owners, we undervalue how agile we are. We can implement something, and that could be the start of something great. It's just, you got to do it one software tool at a time, one employee at a time, one customer. April Walker: That brings up another thought I had is, is there a magic time to add a new software or do you not limit that? Brian Davis: I mean, you got to keep an open mind so you're definitely not going to you don't want to keep moving your clients from portal to portal software to software that's a big no no because then they'll look at you like, am I an on the job training client or you know what you're doing. You know, would you move me from this one to this one? Definitely demoing the like I said, if you're doing your own taxes, test your firm out. You could do your own and say, Hey, how do I feel as a customer, or pick a couple of friends or those friend clients and say, Hey, I'm going to send you down this pipeline. How did you feel about the experience? Then I mean, we're small firms. We can implement. Like that spotlight reporting is something I implemented. Immediately, I started to see that customers were reacting well to it, so I put it in my offer in a way. Hey, well, my new customers get this. My old customers, well, I'm trying to tell them hey, this is where we're going. Maybe we'll keep you for this year, but we'll have this conversation and revisit. Hopefully your business grows and you need this. You can't you're not a one even though I have the name one stop CPA, we're not one size fits all. That's the thing you have to educate. It's a lot of proposals and presentations. That's why I like to use YouTube and Loom. They help with I don't have to do a presentation to everyone and lose my voice. I could make a nice intro. Give you the presentation that applies to yours, what I'm trying to talk to you about. Then I jump in on the back end of I mean, big companies do it. April Walker: Absolutely. I'm sure we're going to talk about it a decent amount. We're just getting started at this conference today, but AI. What's your take on it? How are you using it? How has it made your life better or your firm's life better? Brian Davis: Oh, it's made my life better, everything. I mean, we learn how to do recipes on there, everything. You could almost use it for anything outside of that. April Walker: Absolutely. Brian Davis: But AI, I mean, it's great and you have to know it's just like another tool. You have to know how it applies to your firm and how you're using it. Of course, we have to be careful with security and making sure you're not uploading personal data. What I talked about in the session is think about who the customer is. If you're on a free version of ChatGPT, you're the customer. They're using your input to build the model. But if you pay for the workspace, the app it costs a little bit more money, you can control those settings, and now you can get even more advanced with, endless opportunities. I mean, I have when I'm doing video deliveries that, now sometimes I'll do a tax return and I'll send you a Loom video that will kind of answer the questions I know you're going to have so that that way, when you look at it, you're not hey, I got questions, and I'm busy because I'm at digital CPA. Let me show the video, send it to you. I have a script writer that will help me write the script. There's so much different ways you can play around. I mean, I feel like AI is just getting better and better, so I can't say that I'm an expert on it because it's who it is. It's it's such an early stage but it's great. I'm definitely impressed with it. I try to do as much improvement as I can because it's kind of an assistant. We used to go to Google, research different articles, different people's opinions on tax. Now, you could kind of use it as a research assistant. April Walker: To get you started, at least. Brian Davis: Hey, I'm researching these tax things and I have these questions. This is the idea that I want to present to the client. How would you approach that? Of course, I'm not going to just forward that, but it's definitely better to have that with you kind of just to help you out. I see it as another team member. It's like another team member. April Walker: Yeah, we use Copilot. Brian Davis: Well, one way that I'll be using it now, and I got to give a shout out to Automation Town, it's a community that I'm part of with Chad Davis. One thing I even expressed him, I said, well, the Zoom AI summary after I have my discovery call, Zoom gives a pretty decent, recap of the meeting. But I can't just forward that to the client because there's sometimes there's little, I want to put all that. It's kind of look at it before you send anything to a client. Before I start running off tasks to people, I want to put a little bit of, that would be me, something I would go and manually do. I said, well, he kind of laid out a way where you can combine Zoom's AI summary that comes to you by email with a zappier integration that can create a new Google document with action plan, potential action task for the team, a potential agenda recap that you can send to the client. Then pair that with you tell it stuff about your firm. Well, hey, we talked about this, we want offer this afterwards, and now it already knows what you mean. It can get very customized. You just got to play around with it. It's so cool. There's so many different ways people are using it, and you don't have to be any kind of super tech-forward. You can play around with it. April Walker: I think that's right. I mean, just keep in mind the security aspects, and don't put personal information in there, and then just have fun. Brian Davis: Yeah, get those settings right where you're not uploading your life to the cloud. You know, it's analyzing everything, but, once you're in there, I mean, it's helped me design chat messages that I send to clients just enhancing, hey, I want to come across this way because when we're accounting, you wouldn't even want to see some of the emails I used to send to people just to summarize our meeting. April Walker: Oh my gosh I know. Brian Davis: You got to be an accountant to read this but you know, you could say, hey, read this so it's easier to digest. It's great that you could do those. It's pairing it with our knowledge. As accountants, we got so much that we're good at. Now there's these tools that help us out. April Walker: Brian, we've had a great conversation today. I love it. I don't know if you have listened to our podcast before. It's called Tax Section Odyssey. On it, I like to think about taking an Odyssey together, journey together towards a better profession. We'll pip it a little bit to do you have any dreams outside of the world of tax that you have a bucket list or any travel you've got planned that's still there. Brian Davis: No, well, I definitely want to start traveling in the future. Again, before COVID, that was the one thing when I went out on my own, I got to start traveling. That's why I was hooked on, okay, I got to make this firm work because then I could keep doing these trips. My son, he's 11 months now, so when he's starting to walk, he's starting to stumble so when he starts walking, we want to  spend the summer in a different country and those things. I'd love to do that. April Walker: My daughter had a passport before she was two, so do it. Brian Davis: Right. Exactly. Definitely looking forward to some travel, and just building the firm that can run smooth. I don't plan on selling my firm anytime. I do enjoy being an accountant. I kind of lost that love when I was at the firms and having trouble breaking through to the partners - hey, we should do this, there's some tools that we could use to save me time. We have to document every 15 minutes that we're doing. Now that I got out on my own, I saw that there's a better way that you could actually run an amazing firm. I know that there's a shortage of accountants that are trying that are getting into it because it's  seen as this heavy, burdensome job and there's definitely ways you could break through. In the future, you know, just being a part of that, whether it means helping accountants that are kind of coming up in my shoes. I talked to a lot of my friends and fellow CPAs that just  may have met me on a Zoom or something or met me on a community chat or something, and they're just, you know, looking for these tips to help them get out on their own. What is the tech stack you use? What should I maybe start off with?. Maybe some kind of coaching thing where I'm just helping out profession a little bit. That's something like an Odyssey. April Walker: I love that. That's great. On an Odyssey. Brian, thank you so much for joining me today. I enjoyed it. Brian Davis: This is great. Thanks for having me. April Walker: Of course. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax section. This community is your go to source for technical guidance and resources design, especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts, and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much, and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. Thanks again for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

"The tax industry is a gift for people who want to learn and grow and be challenged. There's never going to come a day where you close volume two of the code and say, 'I figured it all out, I know what it all means now.’” Tony Nitti, Partner — EY National Tax   In this final episode of 2024, Tony Nitti shares his journey within the tax industry, emphasizing the importance of finding one’s passion, investing in oneself and overcoming personal challenges. Listen as Tony shares his personal experience and practical advice for career growth and fulfillment in the tax profession.   What you’ll learn from this episode:   ·       Finding Your Passion: The importance of identifying and nurturing your specific passion within the tax industry, whether it's the law itself, client relationships, or running a firm. ·       Invest in Yourself: The value of investing in your knowledge and skills by learning, writing, and teaching the tax law. ·       Overcome Challenges: Strategies for attracting and retaining talent in the tax industry by providing intellectual challenges and growth opportunities. ·       Try hard things: The benefits of overcoming fears of public speaking and using writing as a tool to communicate complex concepts and share your passion.   Resources S Corporation Shareholder Compensation: How much is Enough?, The Tax Adviser, August 2011 Note: This was the article referenced in the podcast written by Tony. In August 2012, it was the winner of The Tax Adviser’s 2011 Best Article Award.   Transcript April Walker: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Tax Section Odyssey podcast where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. Today, I'm excited to be here with Tony Nitti. Tony is a partner at EY National Tax and he's a frequent guest on the show. We were just chatting about we think this is maybe the sixth time he's been with us. We appreciate you being with us. Our topic today is not a techie topic. It is a soft topic, but I think an important one. Tony, you did a session at National Tax which was just a couple of weeks ago, on finding your passion in tax and it incorporated some technical topics. But today, we're just going to lean right into the finding your passion. I think we, as listeners, we just want to hear your story, tell us more about how you started and got where you are today at National Tax at EY, which is pretty impressive, I must say. Tell us more, Tony. Tony Nitti: It's good to be here with you, April. I will also say I admire your bravery, because like you said, we just did this National Tax a couple weeks ago, or at least a shorter version of it you just went charging full speed ahead and said, let's do a podcast before we get our hands on those evaluations. We might just be doubling down on a disastrous decision. April Walker: Never know. Tony Nitti: Nobody wants to hear, but that's not the hope. Obviously, the hope is that something here will resonate with people who are listening who maybe are just struggling to find their center and find their passion within their careers. But if it's all right with you, I always want to address what I consider the elephant in the room of the conversation like this before we get started. When we talk about this passion for tax, when we did it at National Tax, when we're doing it today, we're talking about a specific type of passion for this industry. What I mean by that is this idea that people are lured to the tax industry as I certainly was by a desire to live in and learn the law. Because we take one look at that tax law and we realize that it's something that's not solvable, and we want to spend our careers being challenged and being forced to grow and learning that law and apply it to our clients. But that's not the only passion you can have in a tax industry. This passion for law, you probably need to learn the law regardless of your passion, but I've met many people in my career who have a very different passion than me. People whose passion is client relationships, building a relationship that lasts for decades, other people whose passion would be to run a firm someday because they want to prove that accounting can be done differently. Those are extremely valid passions and we don't mean to discount them, but we're focusing today on a passion for the law. Learning and applying the law, and we're doing it for two reasons, I think. Number 1, at the AICPA, we're keenly aware of the challenges we have attracting and retaining talent. And specific to retaining talent, we just see all these good people at all levels of experience, leave the industry and as they're on their way out the door, they say, You know what, I got into this industry because I wanted to work in the law. I wanted to solve complicated problems for sophisticated clients and be forced to think on my feet. Instead, for the first four years of my career, all I've done is prepare the same 30 tax returns every year. I haven't seen anything new in 18 months, I'm bored out of my mind, I'm going to go try something completely different. That should never happen. It should never happen in this industry because the tax industry, it is a gift for people who want to learn and grow and be challenged. I think we've all been around long enough to know that there's never going to come a day where you close volume two of the code and say, I figured it all out, I know what it all means now. That day is not coming and so we should never lose people because they're bored, because they're not being challenged. But we do, I assume for two reasons. One is the reason we want to tell ourselves when things aren't going well. It's not to say it's not appropriate sometimes. But this is the reason we want it to be and we want it to be because we're not getting a fair shake. We're getting a raw deal. We work for the wrong firm or the wrong people, and we're not getting the type of work that we enjoy. That may be possible. If you're in a situation like that, the beautiful thing about the industry today is there's more change available to you than ever before. We're not tied into geographic regions. There are purely remote firms. You can change your situation in a heartbeat. But there's also a second possibility. That's a possibility that people don't want to embrace as much. But there's a possibility that we're not in a terrible situation, we just haven't let it be known to the people we work for, the people we work with, what we're passionate about. We haven't shown what's meaningful to us and proven to people that this is the type of work that I want to do. That leads to the second reason we're focusing on this specific type of passion for the law. That reason, April is I'm not Tony Robbins, I'm not a paid motivational speaker. The only thing I have to offer your listeners is my experience, and my passion for this industry, there's no two ways about it is rooted in the law. I'm not someone who has a passion necessarily for forging client relationships that last 40 years. I'm not someone who ever thought I would run my own firm. My passion is constant intellectual stimulation, growth, learning that law. The only thing I have to offer people until I become a paid motivational speaker someday and go through the five step training program is my life experience, what I've learned in this career. That's why I just want to address that because I feel bad. I can't tell someone with other types of passions how to reconnect with their passion in tax,  because I only know my experience at this point. But the hope would be that my experience can help some people because I am a good example of someone who got into this industry for a specific reason, like I said, this desire to learn and build expertise in the law. And then quickly went down the wrong path that so many of us do, and I arrived at a crossroads where I was ready to leave this industry four or five years in because I wasn't growing. I wasn't the person I wanted to be. I wasn't doing the type of work that lured me to this industry and I had to make a conscious decision at that point to say, if I'm going to stick it out in this industry, I am going to make what I'm passionate about the centerpiece of my career and hope that it pays off. That was, again, a proactive conscious decision, and it paid off in ways that I would have never seen coming because what I found is the more I showed people what I was passionate about, the more I made my passion the centerpiece of my career, the more the industry rewarded me with more of the type of work I was passionate about. We can talk about that process. But that decision being something that I decided to do proactively, I also ended up learning lessons later in my career that were taught to me that I didn't decide to do. That I learned the hard way, that had made all the difference as far as understanding, that in life, in our careers, it's probably best to leave no stone unturned. To try different things, to find out what you're capable of, what you might be passionate about, and just say yes to new opportunities. It's been a mix of making a proactive decision to invest in myself and we can talk about that. And then being taught through just the harsh reality of life that you're probably best served to say yes to as many opportunities as you can to just constantly move the goal posts on what you love and what you need out of your career to be happy. With that long rambling introduction.... April Walker: I think it's good. You don't have to convince me because I think some of the themes in your story will apply to a lot of people, even if, like you said, their passion is not necessarily your direction or whatever. Let's get into it. Tony Nitti: That would be the hope. Like I said, it's always uncomfortable because I only have my own experience to talk about, you end up talking about your own experience the whole time and you just sit there and go, why does anybody want to listen to my path? But listen, I didn't grow up dreaming of being a CPA, and I don't know that many people do. I didn't really have many dreams growing up as far as a career. The one thing I thought I would want to be was a writer. Because I love to read as a kid and I wanted to be a sports writer, but it's never something I took seriously. Because I decided at a very young age that I did not have anywhere near the talent necessary to be a writer, and so it's just something I never even pursued. But I went to college undecided as far as a major goes. The only reason I ended up an accounting major is because I told one of my college soccer teammates I was going to go to law school. And he said if you want to get into a good law school, be an accounting major. I'd never even considered accounting, and I don't even know if there's any truth to what he said. But I didn't want to go to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to go law school because I had no idea what I wanted to be. And I just thought I'd put off that decision as long as I could. I end up this accounting major by accident. But after I get through the cost accounting class and the microeconomics class and those types of things, I eventually land in my first tax class. I'm guessing that other people had a similar experience where I get introduced to the tax law and I say, now this might work for me. Because even though I didn't know specifically what I wanted my career to be, I knew that I wanted a career that provided an opportunity for constant challenge, constant growth. I wanted that feeling of going to bed every night a little bit smarter than when I woke up in the morning. To me, the idea of a death sentence was any career where after three months or three years or even 30 years, you've seen everything there is to see and you're just going through the motions. There's nothing wrong with a career like that, it just wasn't going to work for me. The first thing you see when you get introduced to the tax law, this stuff is hard. Hard is good, hard is what I want. We know that in common culture, the tax law is held up as this point of reference for something that's incomprehensible. Einstein once famously said that the hardest thing for him to figure out was the income tax. Sitting there as a 21-year-old kid, you're like, All right, if this was a challenge for Einstein, it's certainly going to kick my butt for the entirety of my career, and that's what I'm looking for. That's how I ended up choosing a career in tax and taking a job with Arthur Andersen. As I said before, this industry should certainly provide all the opportunities someone like me craves, that wants to grow and learn. You could even argue that if you are making your career in the tax industry, it's almost hard to not be passionate about your career if you're passionate about learning and growth. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. I am living proof of that April because pretty much as soon as I started my career, I fell into a very familiar trap. You take a guy who was lured to this industry by this desire to learn the law, and then you put him as a new hire at what was at that time, the largest firm in the world, Arthur Andersen. And pairing up with 25 other new hires. What happens. You get in that competitive environment and you say, forget that learning the law stuff. I have one singular focus and it is to move up the ranks as quickly as possible. To climb the ladder as fast as I can, because I will be damned if I am to let Sally make it to senior before me or Johnny make it to manager before me. That became the focus. That became the priority. How do I get promoted? That is largely based sometimes on just playing the game. Shaking hands with the right clients and being close with the right partners. And just making sure everyone knows what you want, when you want to get promoted, being the squeaky wheel. When you get promoted as senior, pushing your staff as hard as you can to meet deadlines. That's what I valued. That's what was important to me was moving up those ranks, and the thing is it worked. Now four and a half years into my career, I get promoted to manager at what is now PWC, not Arthur Andersen anymore because in the interim there, Andersen collapsed on itself like a dying star after the Enron scandal. Now I'm at PWC, and they promote me to tax manager, and it's supposed to be this cause for celebration. Because they say, you make manager in public accounting. It opens doors that aren't open at any previous level. You want to go make an extra 20, 30 grand and work at another accounting firm, you can do it. You want to go work in a tax department of private company and make some more money while working fewer hours, you can do that, too. Everybody's patting me on the back and they're telling me, this is an impactful day for you. It's a big day in your career. You can go anywhere and do anything now. The thing is, it wasn't just the biggest day to that point in my career. Looking back at it now a full 20 years later, the day I made manager at PWC was and is the single biggest day of my entire career. Now that I could leave you now on a cliffhanger like Dukes of Hazard. Remember, like, they would be launching off some jump, and they go to commercial and you don't know are they going to be okay? This was the biggest day in my career, April, and you probably wondering why? What was so big about? April Walker: Yeah, I'm wondering. Tony Nitti: I went home that night, and all, like, the pats on the back had ended. I'm sitting there, and it hit me like a brick wall. It was this realization that I was a fraud. I know that may sound harsh. I know there are people who are listening that may think you're just being unduly hard on yourself, but I also know there's people listening who are going to say, “I know exactly the feeling he's talking about.” What I mean when I say I was a fraud, April, is it dawned on me that I had just been promoted to tax manager at the second biggest tax firm in the world, and I didn't know a damn thing about the tax law. I didn't. April Walker: I'm sure you knew some stuff. Tony Nitti: Well, that's what everyone says, because they say, “How could you get promoted to manager if you didn't know.” I never have read a court case at that point in my life. I didn't know how the code was strung together. You know what I was good at? Do you know why I got promoted? Because I was good at following processes. April Walker: And competitive, a little bit competitive. Tony Nitti: But I could take the last year's work papers for the return I was doing and turn them into the current year's workpapers. I knew how to do that, but when I was doing that current year return. When I was adding back 50% of M&E, I wasn't doing it because 274(n) told me to. I was doing it because they did it last year. When I was asking the client, how much of your accrued liability was paid within eight and a half months? I had no idea it's because I was trying to apply the recurring item exception of 1.461-5. I was doing it because that's what they had done last year. April Walker: SALY, man. Tony Nitti: SALY. And I know people have shared this experience, but what hit me was that I had been so focused on those processes to get promoted that I had never actually bothered to learn much of anything about the law in which I lived every day. What was terrifying was the realization that I couldn't go anywhere and do anything. It was the exact opposite, April. I was a prisoner at PWC because they knew my limitations. They knew what I could do and couldn't do, and they were content to respond to my constant complaints about promotion by promoting me. But if I wanted to go somewhere else or think about what I had already learned four years into my career. I had learned the lesson that the largest firm in the world can disappear overnight. What if that happened again? And I had to go somewhere else. Could my resume get my foot in the door? Yeah, of course, I could. Would my undeniable charm possibly land me that job? I'd like to think it would, April, but then what after that? Because how long would it take my new employer to realize, Oh, we just hired a tax manager who can't think critically, can't research and solve problems in the code, can't provide planning advice for clients. You know what he can do? He can take last year's workpapers and turn them into this year's workpapers, and that's about the extent of it. I realized when I say I was a fraud, I realized that I had fallen into a trap of pushing so hard for promotion that I had gotten promoted to a level that I was not capable of delivering on. I hated that feeling. The reason it was the most important day of my entire career is because two things changed that day. Number 1, I said, no more am I going to measure my success in this industry by my pace of promotion or my pay rate. I'm done with that. Look what it's gotten me. I've gotten everything I've asked for and it's now made me miserable and terrified. From now on, I am going to reprioritize what attracted me to this industry, which was the law, the substance. I'm going to make that the centerpiece of my career. Whatever happens good or bad, I'm going to live with the results. But if I'm going to call myself a tax person, then I'm going to be the best version of a tax person that I can imagine being. To me that meant building technical expertise. The second thing that happened, and this is a part people aren't going to want to hear quite as much about. I realized that it was nobody's fault but my own. Of course, I wanted to blame PwC, but for what? They gave me everything I asked for. I showed them what I cared about. What I cared about was getting promoted. They promoted. It was not their job to feed me every piece of law I ever wanted to know when I hadn't prioritized that to them. They were trying to run a business and I helped them run a business. The fact that I hadn't learned what I needed or wanted to learn, that was on me. That's when I made the conscious decision to invest in myself. And April, it really was as dramatic a switch as I'm making it sound here. Four and a half years of my career, zero priority on my passion, learning the law. That day everything changed. The way it changed is, first things first, desperate times call for desperate measures. And I had a big gap between what I could do and what my resume said I could do. To solve that gap, I applied that day to the graduate tax program at University of Denver. Because I needed to be spoon fed tax law as quickly as I could. But as soon as I showed up in that program, what happened is I realized I had made the right choice in making this the focus of my career. Because I forgot how passionate I was about the law about learning and growing. Because now I'm sitting there in this class and they're feeding me the law and every day I am going to bed, a little bit smarter than when I woke up in the morning. And I'm saying to myself, this is what attracted me here, this needs to be the focus. Then the second thing is, I'm listening to these professors and I finally know what I want to be in my career. I don't mean a professor, even though that's a great gig as well. I just wanted that substance. I'm listening to them cite case law from 50 years ago, off the top of their head and reference private letter rulings down to the final digit. And I'm saying, I want to be able to do that, because one, that's where my passion lies, but two, I'm guessing if I can have that substance, I will never have to have this horrible feeling again of feeling like I can't deliver what I should be able to deliver. That just set me on the right track, but it didn't solve all the problems, obviously. This decision to invest in yourself, it's got to become a career-long process. I graduate from the program. I felt like the program really helped me bridge that gap, but I knew the process was just starting. Coming out of the program, the one thing I know for sure is that, yes, my one true passion in this industry is to live in the law. Let's be honest, we can argue about it, but you said in your intro. If you truly love working in the law all day and solving complicated problems for sophisticated clients, one could argue there's nowhere you can do that at a more regular level than National Tax group for a big Four firm. That was my dream job back in 2005, when I came out of DU, but it was never possible for me. The reason I say possible is because, look, if we had all the time in the world, we'd be talking about not just pursuing your passions professionally, but also personally. I am a guy that has a lot of passions from a personal perspective. From the time I was 16-years-old, I knew that I was not going to be a happy adult unless I lived in a mountain town where I could be on skis, 70 days a year and riding my mountain bike another 250 days a year. It had to be that way. When I graduated in 2005, I was already laying the groundwork to move up to the mountains of Colorado in 2006. At that time, if you were going to work in Big Four National Tax, you had to physically sit in DC. It's something I never even sent a resume, never even applied for. Because I knew that even if I were happy professionally, if I were miserable personally, it wasn't going to be a winning formula. What I did instead was I took a job at a wonderful regional firm called Withum. And they were so wonderful, in fact, that they let me work remotely at a time where remote work was not really prevalent within our industry. But they let me work from Aspen, even though they were an East Coast firm. But we finally get now to the lesson, how? How do you connect with your passion for your industry? Knowing that my passion was learning the law, now starting at a brand new firm. I don't have anybody spoon feeding me tax law every day. How do I unlock the secret to a happy career? That secret is not really a secret. You want a happy career, do more of the work you love and less of the work you don't. How do I get my hands on this type of work I love and the decision that I made. There are people listening who are at that crossroads right now who may have to say, it sounds like a lot of work, but I get it. Maybe it's time for me to make that decision as well to invest in myself. Was that if I can't bring myself to Big Four National Tax and do the type of work I love, I am going to find a way to bring the type of work I love to me. I realized that the responsibility is mine to show this new firm that I'm passionate about working in the law and that I'm capable of working in the law. Part of that happens obviously on the job. Part of it happens by doing diligent research and coming up with good answers and thinking outside the box. But I knew that I needed to really prove to everybody where my passion lies so I could get more of that work. What I did, and this was the thrust of our AICPA class, is I instituted this three-step process that I had been using for the last 20 years and just repeating over and over again, and it has served me better than I ever could have dreamed. But what I did was Step 1, I'd say, I am going to learn everything I can about some narrow area of the law. I would pick an area of the law, usually one that I found that the industry was struggling with. What I mean by that is we all know there's certain things we do in the tax world that all of us do, and we apply it all the time for our tax returns. We never truly understand why we're doing what we're doing. That was back to what we said earlier, the same as last year's stuff. Perfect example would be allocation of partnership liabilities under Section 752. We all fill out a K-1 on a 1065 and allocate recourse and non-recourse liabilities. But how many people truly understand what makes a liability recourse and non-recourse or how those liabilities should be allocated? I would say, Sec. 752. I am going to learn everything I could about 752. This is a part people don't want to hear, but it would happen outside work hours. I would read the code, I would read the regs, I would read the editorial content, I would read the key cases and the rulings and things like that. And I would read and re-read and make notes and do outlines until I felt like I understood what it was I was reading. Then I would move on to Step 2. Step 2 is, how do I cement this knowledge? I would sit down and say, if I truly understand all that stuff I just read, I should be able to explain it to other people. I would sit down and I would write up everything I just read. Try to re-package and re-purpose the law in a way that would make someone who read what I was writing understand. Maybe some of your listeners know that later and we'll get into this, I would go on to write for more national publications. That's not what I'm talking about here in 2006, April. I didn't have a platform. When I say I'm writing about the law, I was quite literally putting together an email for my firm's tax department that absolutely nobody asked for. I would summarize 752. I would put together a PDF decision tree and flow chart and show how we should be allocating things. I was doing it for two reasons. The reason I like to tell people is I wanted to help my firm understand 752. But the true selfish reason I was doing it is because I wanted to understand that law, and I wanted to show everyone else that I understood that law and that I was passionate about that law. I would send out this email to my firm's tax department explaining 752. Going through that process of writing it up really did cement that knowledge for me because I had to think about the law in a different way from reading it to say, how do I now explain it? April Walker: How did they react to those emails? Tony Nitti: You could almost hear the eyerolls in the system. You can almost hear, who is this kid? What is he doing? I wasn't even a kid at that point, I was near 30. Here's the thing. We're going to talk some life lessons here, but I was talking to somebody after the presentation at AICPA. Sometimes the key to success in any career is just being willing to do the thing other people won't. What I mean by that is those books, the code, the regs, we all have access to them. What I was doing is I was diving in and saying, I'm going to figure out what they say and what they mean. Other people probably rolled their eyes when I would summarize law that nobody asked for. But you know what those same people would do when they had a 752 issue? Who were they coming to? April Walker: For sure. Tony Nitti: Well, the only other option was to open the books themselves. That's what I mean about doing what other people won't. That's not everyone's priority and I'm not here to say it's right or wrong, but the reality is when I showed people that I'm willing to open the books, I started to get that work because other people aren't. Not everybody, but there are just people who say, I'd rather just push it to someone who enjoys that stuff and that became a common theme of my career where people come to me and say, I know you love this research stuff, so I'm going to give it to you. You probably give it to me because you don't want to do the research stuff. That's fine by me because I do want to do it. I do want to do this work. To your point, there are eye rolls, but those eye rolls, I'm sure, were the same people who'd say, I got this question. I know this dude seems to care about this stuff. I'm going to go to him and let him answer it for me, which is exactly what I was hoping for. After that writing step, I would go to Step 3. Step 3 was the uncomfortable step. Because as much as I enjoy writing, and I know this sounds strange because we're doing a podcast about a presentation I gave, but speaking in public, not for me. We're going to talk more about this later, but terrifies me. And I would go into my partner's office, and I'd say, you see that email that I sent around about 752? I need to teach it. I need to teach here at the firm - some lunch and learn local office or the firm's annual update, but I need to teach it. Why would I ask to teach if I was terrified of it? It's because I was terrified of it. Because if I want to know that law, there is no greater motivator than fear. If I'm going to stand in front of a room full of my peers or some people who've been practicing 20 years longer than me, I was really going to make sure I understood that law really well. To this day, I don't give a presentation that I don't walk around my house and rehearse to air, just to time it out, to make sure I'm comfortable with the transitions, to make sure I know the law. Because that fear still exists from a public speaking perspective. I would go through that process, and by the time it was done, by the time I was done handling that fear and speaking in front of -  these are tiny rooms. These are my firm. These are not strangers to me, but by the time I was done, I would say, that area of the law, that is in my back pocket. I feel like I know that well, and more importantly, my firm now knows that I know that well. All those questions are going to come to me. I would just repeat that process, every year, not every year. I'm just repeat it over and over again with deducting accrued liabilities or 263(A) or prepaid expenses. I would just repeat the process if the firm. Read about it, write about it, teach about it. The more I'm doing it, the more they can see where my passion lies and that I'm capable. To the point where 2008ish, the firm decides to launch its version of a National Tax Group and in addition to our mutual friend Brian Lovett, who's still at Withum, and I get to be one of the founding members of that National Tax Group. Now all of a sudden, I have brought national tax to me and my passion is much more of the focus of my career. As I said, that's the recipe, right? Do more of what you like and less of what you don't and that's what I'm getting now as a return on my investment. That's where the proactive decisions I made to help improve my career, that's pretty much the end of them. From there, it's just life has taught me because now you get to 2008, April and my career is going really well. I'm doing the type of work I love to do. Personally, I am living in Aspen and like I said, I'm on skis 70 days a year. I'm living on my mountain bike all spring. Life is good. April Walker: That's when life smacks you in the face. Tony Nitti: Exactly. That's when the headache started, and I'm your audience with the entire story, obviously. But after one particularly brutal race in Aspen, I was rushed to the emergency room with a terrible migraine-type headache. But I imagine more intense than most migraines because eventually, what they would figure out, it took a little bit of time, was that I had an aneurysm in my brain. Most people know somebody impacted by brain aneurysm and those stories typically do not have happy endings. The reality is once an aneurysm leaks blood into the brain cavity, 70% of people are dead by the next morning. As my surgeon so eloquently put it, of the other 30%, half of them will wish they were by the next morning because they're permanently disabled. This is something where I went from thinking I was invincible at 33 years old to absolutely certain that I was going to die. The only reason we bring this up here is because I had to face my mortality, and I had to go in for 8 hours of surgery to save my life. I had that morning to lay on that metal table before they wheeled me in for the surgery. They were very clear about the risks. There's a 5% chance I go into vasospasm and I never wake up. There's a 15% chance if I wake up, I've got memory problems, right side of the body problems, cognitive deficit, and that's terrifying. Laying there that morning, I know it sounds cliche, but looking back at 33 years I'd spent on the planet, I wasn't spending any of that morning regretting the things I had done that maybe didn't go the way I wanted him to do. I was spending the time regretting the things I had said I was going to try, but I hadn't tried yet. It was eating away. Like, I thought I had so much more time, and now the prospect that either I don't wake up or I wake up a different person and I never get to find out some of those things about myself. It was not something you ever want to have to face. That the tomorrow you thought you had may never arrive. Now, obviously, I had a good surgeon. April Walker: Given that that was in 2008? Tony Nitti: Yeah. Doctor Jefferson. He fixed me right up. I knew within 48 hours that all the Simpsons references, all the code sections, they were all still in there. But I did come out of it a changed person. Not cognitively, necessarily, but I came out of it saying, I'm going to live the rest of my life slightly different than I did before, starting with the fact that I'm leaving no stone unturned. This is what we were talking about earlier. Anything I've been curious about - personal, professional, could I be good at it? Would I enjoy it? I am going to find out. I'm going to say yes, because I just want to know. It started simply enough. I wasn't even in my professional capacity, like silly little thing. I spent my whole childhood saying I wanted to learn how to play guitar. I never bothered to learn guitar. I had a year, basically year it took me to recover from that surgery before I could get back to my normal life, and I spent that year playing ten years worth of guitar. But what happens is you realize, I love this. I thought I would enjoy it. Tony Nitti: I do enjoy it. I shouldn't let other things slip past me like this. I should try everything. Within my career, it's now 2009, and I've made partner at Withum. There's no impetus to try new things in my career. I've gotten the last promotion I'm never going to get. But that's not what's driving me at that point. What's driving me is this primal realization that, life is fleeting and so I'm going to go find out whatever I want to find out about. We go back to how we started this conversation. Growing up, the only thing I ever thought I would enjoy was being a writer. I had been doing those emails to my firm, but I never tried anything bigger than that because I just assumed I didn't have the ability. What bothered me after the surgery is I never even risked it enough for someone to tell me I wasn't any good. I just decided it for myself. I said, look, I'm never going to write the Great American novel. I'm not that talented, but they say write what you know and I know some things about the tax law. April Walker: Sure. Tony Nitti: I said, I just want to find out. I want to find out what I'm capable of. The next time I went through that three step process, it was about a court case that came out on S corp reasonable comp. I said, well, this time, even though no one's pushing for it, no one at my firm cares, it's not anything anyone else values, I'm going to find out if I can get this thing published externally. I wrote up the entire case history of S-Corp Reasonable comp for The Tax Adviser. I wrote and rewrote and I edited, I reedited and I eventually submitted it for publishing and they published it as a feature article. What I had learned in that process was not that I was a talented writer, but that I was as passionate about it as I thought I would be. I loved it. I love the process of trying to explain the law to somebody else in the hopes that the light bulb goes off and they go, I never understood that before, now I understand. Of course, I looked from a selfish perspective having to learn the law that well, to read all of the cases that had ever been settled. It was just a really gratifying process, but the problem is, my firm's not paying me to sit around and write articles all day, so it's a bit of a bummer. Because I had done it, I loved it. But how do I get to do more of it? This is where the worlds collide between leaving no stone unturned, but also investing in yourself. Where the article, it went well. Tony Nitti: It went well to the point where The Tax Adviser asked me to write a couple more articles, and I did. Then what happened is just if you invest in yourself, I firmly believe good things happen. You get a return on that investment. CCH reaches out to my firm and they're like. Hey, we see this writing this kid's doing, it's pretty darn good and we need someone to co author a treatise on consolidated returns and we'll pay your firm for six months of his time if he can contribute a bunch of chapters to this treatise. Tony Nitti: My firm comes to me and says, CCH wants you to write a treatise on consolidated returns, you want to do it? Like any rational human being, every instinct in my body said, absolutely not. Why would I want to write a consolidated returns treatise, it's terrible. It's the worst area of the law. But the point is, who am I to say no? I'm passionate about writing. I want to be challenged, and it's just this idea of leave no stone unturned. I'm going to write it just to see if I can write it and to see if good things come of it. Now my firm is getting paid for me to write, so they allow me to do more of the type of work I'm passionate about. I got to write that treatise, which is probably the last time I thought about a consolidated return. But it just things snowballed. From there, April and now the editor at Forbes, Janet Novack, she's reading my writing. She reaches out to me more than day. I'd never met her, or heard her. She reaches out to me and says. Hi, I like your style of writing. Would you move your platform over to Forbes? For a regional firm like Withum at that time, the exposure was tremendous. Of course, we'll do it and so that's how I land at Forbes, where now anyone who ever read anything I wrote on Forbes, I'm not making up this three step process. Because the entirety of my writing on Forbes, for the most part, was this, like trying to explain complicated areas of the law. There was that whole Tax Geek Tuesday. That's all it was. Breaking down things that no one was insane enough to want to write about because it's so dry and so complicated, like opportunity zones or 263 A or whatever it may be. Now all your listeners know my deep dark secret, which is it may have looked like I was doing all that writing because I wanted to help the industry, which obviously I'm joking. Obviously, I did. But why else was I doing it? Because I wanted to learn that stuff. I wanted to build that expertise and hope that it would pay off. One of the things we'll finish with in a couple of minutes is how that ended up paying off with my dream job. But even at that point, even with the writing, and this comes full circle to how this class came to be for us because of what happened in Engage this summer. But at that point, we're talking 2011. I've never done public speaking. Outside of my firm, outside of a lunch and learn, I've never stood in front of a room full of strangers and taught. What happened was you do enough writing, eventually, someone's going to come to you and say, you're decent at explaining a tax law, wouldn't you like to try it, like in person. So you don't have to trust that someone's going to read your writing and understand it all, first try, things like that? My friend Mark Friedlich at CCH approached me and said, "We do this conference every year. Come speak at the conference.". Again, every fiber of my being said, Mark, absolutely not. Because I am someone who has got more than my share of social anxiety. I just do, I'm an introvert. There's a reason I love having my nose in the books. The idea of standing in front of a room full of strangers, it terrifies me to this day. I just learned to deal with it a little bit better. Then, of course, there's the impostor syndrome that comes with it. I'm like, why would anybody want to listen to me? There's so many people who know this stuff better than I do. I said, "Mark, it is not for me." Because as much as I always knew I would enjoy writing, I knew I would hate public speaking. He just said, "Look, just give it a try. What's the worst that could happen?" Eventually he's right. Who am I to say no to this? The whole point of this second act I'm getting in life, is say yes, find out what you're capable of, find out what you might enjoy. I flew to Arizona, April and I did 90 minutes on the tax consequences of foreclosures and short sales. That tells you. April Walker: That's very specific. Tony Nitti: It's 2011. This is where it's getting real for the crash and so everybody's dealing with foreclosures and short sales. I went in there and I talked for 90 minutes, and let me tell you, it was every bit as awful as I thought it was going to be. But when I walked out of that room, I knew my goals in my career. I knew my passion in my career had changed, had evolved. Because I walked out of that room saying, I need to do more of this. But why? If it was so terrifying, why? Because it was so gratifying, Just to have even one person come up to you afterwards and say, "I struggled to understand that now. The light bulb went off. I get it." This desire to communicate and help other people and explain the law in a way that people can understand. It's fun to do it in writing. Maybe not that efficient. You have to trust that they're going to read the whole thing, not have any follow up question. But with speaking, I could read their faces. Are they following along? Do they look lost or are they tilting their head to the side like my pup Maggie does in some futile attempt to understand what I'm saying to her? I'm like, I'm not built for this, but I need to do it. For me to be the best version of myself, the happiest version of myself in my career, I need to do this thing regularly that terrifies me because the reward is so great. That ability to repackage and repurpose the law in a way that connects with other people in the industry. Of course, the byproduct of learning it so well. If I'm going to stand in front of the room and talk about foreclosures and short sales, that's another thing I'm going to get to add to my quiver as far as areas of expertise. It's funny, because like I said, growing up, I knew I'd be passionate about writing, and I was. Knew I'd be terrified to speak publicly, and I am. But I'm just as passionate about it now as I am the writing. One final story to just tie everything together and just show you how. Look, I don't know. Maybe my experience is unique. Maybe we need one of those things to run on the bottom of the podcast that says. What is it? Past performances are not  indicative of future performances? April Walker: Future yeah? Tony Nitti: I don't know. Maybe it's just unique, but this right place, right time. The rewards I've gotten on the decision to invest in myself from Withum's willingness to create a national tax group, to Forbes noticing my writing and bringing me on. Just the little things that have impacted the course of my career. It's remarkable because listeners out there, especially the younger variety, they're going to think it's these big decisions that I stress out about that are going to impact the course of my career. Which job do I take or what area of the law do I focus on? But my goodness, it's sometimes the smallest things. What changed the course of my career was a decision in 2013 to waste my Thanksgiving weekend. Because 2013, right around this time, the IRS issues regulations under 1411, the net investment income tax regs. I didn't want to necessarily spend my Thanksgiving weekend learning about those regs and writing about them, but it was new. I love writing about new stuff. I love trying to explain to people how to read [how the] law works and so I said. I'm going to sit down and go through the three step process, at least the first two. For now, I'm going to learn about it, I'm going to write about it. I wrote about the net investment income tax regs. It was no different than any other article. There's nothing special about it. The only thing that was special is a couple of days later, I get an email from the attorney at the IRS who wrote those regulations. April Walker: Spoiler. Tony Nitti: Felt encouraging. He just reached out to me to say, here's what you got right. Here's what you got wrong. I want to send a unified message out to the people. You know [David] Kirk, so there's probably some expletives thrown in there. April Walker: Absolutely. Tony Nitti: I just thought, that's so admirable that this guy would take that level of ownership over his work. Dave and I would become what I would loosely call friends. I think we met in person once at National Tax, but other than that, we maybe connected once a year for the next decade. But the point is, this return on investment, that decision to write that article would change everything. Because 10 years later, Kirk is not at the IRS anymore. Now he's at EY running one of the National Tax groups, and one of his partners is retiring and unbeknownst to me, he's been keeping track of my career the entire time and he's seeing this investment I'm making in myself. He's seeing my passion for learning the law and whatever small ability I might have to explain that law to other people. He's saying. That's the guy I want. He's going to his bosses and saying. This is the person I want to come in as the new partner in EY National Tax. In 2021, he reaches out to me. And I was working for an amazing firm at the time, Rubin Brown, and I loved my job.  But he reaches out to me and he says. Come work with me and work in this National Tax group. The opportunity, obviously, to work with Dave Kirk is pretty much all you need to hear. But of course, me being a pain, the first thing I say is, do I have to move to DC? Now, this is the benefit of the post pandemic world. We can do this remotely from Aspen and so he's offering me my dream job, April. What's amazing about that is I spent a couple months agonizing over that decision. I very nearly turned it down. Why? Because, honestly, I was scared. I couldn't do it. It was back to almost that feeling of being a fraud again, but just feeling, I don't know. This guy has forgotten more about the law than most people know. And I had that impostor syndrome kick in again. Can I do it? Am I capable? Who knows? Maybe I'm not and the firm has just been lying to me for the last three years. The point is, I almost didn't take it and then I sat down and said, hold on a second. What is it that makes you not want to take this job? I'm scared because I think I might have to learn a lot to be able to hang. Then I'm like, wait a minute. What is it you're most passionate about in your career?  Where you're forced to learn a lot so that you can hang? Finally, it just became obvious to me that I had to take the opportunity because this was my dream. My dream to just live in the law all day, every day, and it came about in the most bizarre fashion. April, I didn't submit a resume because it didn't mesh with my personal goals. But then this decision to invest in myself, which eventually led to Forbes, which got me in front of Kirk. It's just crazy. Crazy to think how it all unfolded. The message for someone listening out there, is I was no kid when Dave Kirk called me. I was 45 years old. 45, to land my dream job in this industry and patience is certainly a virtue. The bigger virtue is just understanding some of the things we talked about here today. Which is, look, no one wants to hear this. The easy way out is to say, I'm in a bad situation, no one's treating me fairly. I'm not learning what I want to learn. Look, there are bad situations out there. Like I said, if you're in one, it's pretty easy to move. Problems are going to follow you even to good situations, if you don't take ownership over your own career and if you don't say at a certain point, it's no one's job to make me the professional that I want to be other than myself. That's not easy. It comes with a lot of extra work. You think I wanted to be reading Bittker & Eustis on the beach on a weekend back when I was fielding materials a lot? Of course, I didn't. The BNA portfolio at night? No, but I was making an investment in the hope that it would pay off. The way it paid off, like I said, was doing more of the type of work I love, which is all you can possibly ask for. It's not an easy thing to communicate to people - as much as we work in this job, sometimes you have to you go above and beyond to show people what you're passionate about and that you're capable of handling it. If you don't show, no one knows and you can just get lost in the shuffle and end up being that person we talked about that's doing the same tax returns five years in a row and not growing and not learning. If you haven't shown people that you're not content with that. If you haven't shown people where your passions lie, human nature is such that firms of any size are just going to say, April just keeps doing what we ask for every year. We're just going to keep asking her to do it. April Walker: I think that's great. It's funny when you were starting to tell your story about that you hadn't learned anything. I had a question in my mind, like, don't you think that's partially the firm's responsibility that they hadn't invested in you to send you enough trainings or things? Then you answered the question. That's a personal responsibility thing. Tony Nitti: Perfect example of that. They did send me to trainings. I can remember most of those trainings, and everyone knows someone like this. Being the guy who spent half of the trainings outside the room, doing work for my senior or my manager back in the office because I didn't value the training. What I valued was getting promoted. If my senior manager said, I need you to do something right now, even though I was at a training at St. Charles for Andersen, I was going to walk out of that room and get that work done for them.   Everybody wants a villain. Life is always easier with a villain. PWC was no villain. Because it's not like I asked them to teach me and they refused to. I showed them what I valued and they rewarded that. If I only valued promotion, they gave me promotion. Since that point in my career, when I showed my employers that I valued the type of work I love, I valued being challenged, I valued living in the law, I have gotten rewarded with more of that type of work. I refuse to believe my experience is a one-off, that it's completely unique. I definitely got some very lucky breaks at some key points in time. Then I got dealt a harsh lesson that I wouldn't wish upon anybody. I don't want anyone at 33 years old to have to face their mortality. But that was an impetus to say, I got to find out more of what I'm capable of. And that opened up doors that I never dreamed, April, that I would spend as much of my career doing. When I say passionate about my love for writing, I just never thought it would even be an option in a career in tax. Then it ended up being a huge part of what I did for so long. I refuse to believe that that's unique to me. I think that anybody who says, I'm willing to do what the other person isn't. I'm willing to get into these books, learn what they say, show people that I care about what they say, and that I can communicate them to other people, that really good things are going to follow. April Walker: Writing might not be your passion, but I think the message today, as we're wrapping up, figure out what that passion is. It doesn't matter how old you are. You can try to figure it out and do more. I just read this book that was talking about -  do the next right thing. The big picture might feel huge and scary, but just whatever the next step is, just do the next right thing. Tony Nitti: The way I've always described that too, April, is you shouldn't at any point in your life be finished finding out what your passions are. That's the whole point, is you should be a fundamentally different person at 35, that you're at 25 and 45 that you're at 35. You should be saying yes to opportunities that help you unearth new passions and new things that you are capable of doing. Because like I said, there is no scenario, and people who know me well know what I mean, where I should be making career out of public speaking, doing as much public speaking as I do. It is so foreign and uncomfortable to me. But I look past that, because I'm passionate about it and so I find a way to make it work through truly ridiculous levels of preparation. April Walker: Some might say you're good at it. I'll give you a little spoiler. Your two sessions were the top rated at National Tax, so there you go. Tony Nitti: Now, you have to edit out earlier today when I said, we're doing this without the safety net of the evaluation. April Walker: I didn't want to tell you in advance. Tony Nitti: See that. Again, but that is proof that anybody, if I can make any career out of public speaking, anybody can. That's why you got to try. That was the thing at ENGAGE that started all this, is when we were just talking about say yes to opportunities because you know what, if you are as bad as you think you're going to be and you hate it as much as you think you will, you haven't lost anything. You just go back to not doing it anymore, but you might unearth new passions that move the goalposts on what you need out of your career. That's a goal in life to keep growing and keep finding things that really drive you. Hopefully, April, something we said resonates with the listeners, but I guess we'll find out. April Walker: I hope so too. This is our last podcast episode of the year. You can listen to it at the end of the year. I used to love your resolution articles. I think that was a Forbes thing. I love these articles. I miss those articles and people come up to you still all the time and are like, I really miss those articles. Tony Nitti: What's funny is the last thing I ever wrote for Forbes was one of those resolution articles and I don't know. Maybe I wrote 200, 300 articles for Forbes over the 10 years, but the last thing is my favorite thing I ever wrote because it had absolutely nothing to do with tax. I had to do with my pup Macy. April Walker: I know. Tony Nitti: You knew well and Macy was on her way out of the world at the time and just to be able to even have a platform to write about my pup, that is still the one thing I've ever written that I go back and read. I don't hate this. I don't want to change anything. April Walker: That's good. Thank you so much, Tony. This was so fun. I know our listeners will enjoy it. Also, again, thanks a bunch. This is April Walker from the AICPA Tax section. This community is your go to source for technical guidance and resources designed, especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much.  Please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax and find our other episodes. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful holiday season and come back and 2025 is going to be an exciting tax year. I just feel it. Thanks for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

Kasey Pittman, Director of Tax Policy at Baker Tilly, dives deep into the complexities of potential tax legislation for 2025. He discusses the intricacies of extending the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act amidst rising national debt and the challenges of tax revenue generation. The conversation shines a light on the influence of individual lawmakers and the implications of a unified government on tax policy. Kasey also shares personal travel anecdotes, adding a delightful twist to the tax talk!

Dive into the future of tax legislation following the 2024 election where key topics like beneficial ownership information reporting and disaster relief are dissected. Explore the potential shifts surrounding the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act and the implications for small businesses. Insights reveal alarming gaps in tax filings, emphasizing the need for outreach over enforcement. As 2025 approaches, stay informed on retroactive laws, emerging mobile workforce regulations, and the vital balance of IRS funding for effective compliance.

This podcast discussion with Michael Reese, Risk Control Consulting Director (Accountants) — CNA Insurance, centers around the importance of engagement letters for tax practitioners. Michael emphasizes the role engagement letters play in setting expectations, providing clarity and mitigating risks during engagements. He also reviews the necessity of having clear, documented agreements to minimize disputes and liability issues. What you’ll learn from this episode: The importance of engagement letters Common risks in tax engagements The role of client education and communication in managing risk How to handle quality control under deadline pressure AICPA resources Annual Tax Compliance Kit — Engagement letters, organizers, checklists and practice guides help you manage your tax season workflow. Say "I do" to engagement letters — Uncover the importance of establishing parameters of client relations and detail the scope of services to be provided. Other resources Frequently Asked Engagement Letter Questions — The Accountants Risk Control team at CNA, the endorsed underwriter of the AICPA Professional Liability Insurance Program, summarizes answers to frequently asked questions. Transcript April Walker: On today's podcast, listen to hear how you can manage your risk with engagement letters. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the AICPA’s Tax Section Odyssey Podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a Lead Manager from the Tax Section. And I'm here today with Michael Reese. Michael is a risk control director with CNA. Michael Reese: Good morning, April. April Walker: Thanks for joining me today. Here at the AICPA, we work really closely with Michael and his team on lots of things and lots of projects. But I'm especially grateful for the partnership that we have with his team for Tax engagement letter templates. Speaking of engagement letters, they are now currently available to Tax Section members. Of course, I will put a link in the show notes so that you're able to access those. April Walker: Today, we're going to talk about some common questions that we get, and I'm sure that you also get Michael on Tax Engagement Letters and just generally how to manage your risk as a tax practitioner. Welcome, Michael, and thank you for joining me. Michael Reese: Thank you. Hopefully, what I can provide will be of use to your listeners. These are questions we often get as well. I do want to confirm that, but it's a very important topic. Glad we're talking about it here today. April Walker: I'm positive that they will be helpful. Sometimes people get answers to questions that they don't really want to hear, but they're important for them to hear. Michael Reese: Exactly. April Walker: Just to start off, I'm wondering why you think it's crucial for tax practitioners to have an engagement letter in place not only for every engagement but before they actually start the work. Michael Reese: April, I think there's two primary answers to this question. First, setting expectations and then setting guardrails in case something goes wrong. From a practice standpoint, it's very important for both the practitioner and the client to know what's going to happen and what work is being done. Your engagement letter hopefully is going to clearly state, "This is what you've asked us to do. This is what we're doing. This is what we collectively need to do to get this completed. This is the info we need and when we need it," etc. If a practitioner doesn't have this, then they run the risk of a client coming back later and either adding services, sometimes without the added fee, or complaining that a service has not been performed. There needs to be that clarity upfront. For professional liability reasons, having that clarity helps limit your duty of care to the agreed-upon scope. This way, in the event of a dispute, the practitioner has a strong argument for avoiding liability related to items for which they had no responsibility. That leads me to the second answer involving guardrails. Ideally, the engagement letter is going to set out the agreed-upon rules if something goes wrong. Dispute resolution is not really something CPAs focus on until they are in the middle of one, but we routinely talk to tax practitioners who are in the middle of an engagement with a problem and they don't have the signed letter to fall back on. If that letter is in place before the work starts, you now have options if something goes wrong, whereas without the letter, you don't. Now, I'm not ignoring the fact that getting a signed letter back can be a challenge, especially for 1040 clients. But I know there are practitioners out there that have a strict process. No letter, no work. Remember, the onus is on the client because they do need your help. Otherwise, they aren't showing up to your office. If they want the service, then they need to work with you. April, I would say put it this way. When I go to get work done on my car, even for an oil change, they don't even take my keys until I've signed a piece of paper that says I agree to the service and the terms of service. If I ignore that paper, disappear for some period of time, and then come back like some tax clients, when I come back, my car is still how I left it unrepaired, and I can't now complain that I'm going to be late for work because my car isn't fixed. I can, but I don't know how far it's going to get me. I really would like to think that tax professionals should have no trouble with a similar approach. April Walker: That's a great analogy. That's where we'll talk about this. Mike, you and I have both been in practice before. And sometimes we struggle with the way we've always done things, in a certain way, but it might not be the way the rest of the world operates. If we're thinking about this in a way of managing your risk, this is definitely a best practice. Michael Reese: Yeah, I would agree. April Walker: Great. Let's talk about some common risks that tax practitioners face during engagement. You've got your engagement letter, for sure. Check one. We are in the engagement. How might having that engagement letter help mitigate some of the risks that can happen as things are going on? Michael Reese: I'll give you four. We can talk about these. But the first one and we did touch on it before in the prior question, there's risk when there's no alignment on what the client needs. The client may not understand truly what they need to comply. They just know they need to file a return. Once you have the discussion with your client and identify the extent of the need, that engagement letter is going to provide the clarity that we spoke of, so both you and the client understand - this is what we're doing. Two, once you know what you're doing, there's still a risk that the client doesn't know what's included. Let me give you an example. When I practiced, I had a 1040 business owner client that felt they were paying too much in estimated taxes using the 110% safe harbor method. We ended up doing actual method. They didn't realize that meant doing quarterly drafts for the business and then calculating actual tax in multiple draft 1040s to figure out how much they owed each quarter. Added a lot of time, added a lot of fees. The client thought it was, "Part of the return." But at the time, the engagement letter didn't really break down for the client what was part of the return and what was not. That subsequent argument about fees could all have been avoided. Three, there is a small risk someone may use the work for a purpose other than what was originally intended and we don't see this too often in tax. It's more of an attest item, but sometimes we do see it in tax. Just think of how often clients ask for comfort letters and you'll see where I'm going with this. Once you give them the deliverable, you do lose a bit of control as to what they might do with it. Your engagement letter can anticipate this risk by saying, "We're doing this X." Tax return, consulting project, whatever. "We're doing this X for this specific reason. If you use it for some other reason, that risk and or loss is on you." I helped you with your tax return so that you can file your taxes and not have the IRS sending you nosy letters. If you gave that return to someone else for some other reasons, you've been warned, that's between you and that other person. But if your engagement letter doesn't close that door, you could have an issue. Fourth, strangely enough, not every client realizes that if you don't file and pay your taxes on time, there's some downside associated with that. A lot of professional liability claims fall into the bucket of, "You didn't tell me," regardless of merit. At minimum, your engagement letter can put the client on notice. "Hey, if you don't do this or you don't take your responsibilities seriously, bad things can happen." April Walker: I think those are all great examples. I'm specifically thinking about and we may touch on it a little bit later talking about some of the planning that might be around some of the upcoming TCJA sunset items and work you're going to be doing around that. I like your example and that absolutely has happened to me before about the estimated tax payments. The client didn't really understand, "Hey, cash out is also the fees you pay to me." I think that's a interesting one. But you want to make sure that you're not leaving on the table the assumption that any planning and projection work that you might be doing related to these consulting projects or whatever around TCJA or whatever it might be is specifically either included in the engagement letter or you have a separate engagement letter that talks about that. Michael Reese: I think you used a very important term when you say assumption. I think a lot of times CPAs are very in tune with the work and what needs to be done and there's an assumption that the client has the same knowledge or the same background. I think you talk to a lot of clients and what the CPA believes to be true isn't always necessarily what the client believes to be true. That's why you'll hear me talk a lot about that alignment between client and CPA. Documenting that and getting that understanding and having it in the engagement letter is very helpful. April Walker: Like you said, in assurance engagements, you hear more about scope creep. But definitely, it happens in tax engagement too. It's important to think about. I know this doesn't happen with people who listen to this podcast and are AICPA and tax section members. I know this doesn't happen. But maybe you have friends who do not have an engagement letter for an engagement. What are some examples of situations? Not specific - we're not calling names and calling people out here, but where might there be significant issues for a tax practitioner if they don't have an engagement letter? Michael Reese: Sure, and you're right. I can't name names, but we've seen enough that I can give you some generic examples inspired by true events. Hopefully one listening doesn't say that's my situation, but that's not where this is intended to go. If you don't have an engagement letter, you may have an oral contract even if you don't realize it. I'm not sure most people are aware. Simple fact pattern. Client calls you for work, you discuss fees, client says, there's an argument, that's a contract. The problem is other than the fee and the return, what are the terms? What's the result if something weird happens and you want to fire the client? Or if the client never pays you for your time, or and I've seen this one before, the person goes MIA, you don't realize they were serious and they show up on the due date with a stack of papers and your fee demanding a tax return. Oral contracts are a gray area and frankly, one where I think practitioners should seek legal help if one exists because of the ambiguity around performance, remedy and termination. When I say performance, I mean doing the work. Remedy is what one party can look forward to if the other party violates the agreement and termination I hope is self explanatory. I'll put a plug in here for the engagement letters offered to AICPA members in the tax compliance kit. Those letters include a provision that states the agreement supersedes all previous oral agreements. That's there on purpose. You can hopefully avoid the issues related to possibly having entered into an oral agreement, when you've provided a written proposal, or if the engagement letter scope differs from prior understandings. And that happens frequently enough where you talk about the work and then you put it in the letter and maybe the client doesn't realize the scope has changed a little bit. Another situation. If you don't have an engagement letter and a good percentage of tax claims actually fall into this category, the disputes and ensuing lawsuits are more difficult to defend and more expensive to defend. You're now trying to piece together all of those conversations, all of those emails, dealing with all of the finger pointing and the convenient lapse of memories, just to figure out what was supposed to happen. Just put it in writing so it's clear upfront what the agreement is. I think an area I would be concerned with here is with SALT (state and local tax) compliance. Here it's more often that there's an engagement letter, but the letter is ambiguous or silent on key scope matters. It's not absence of an engagement letter as in your question, but functionally, it's the same principle because whether you have no letter or the letter is silent, in both cases, you don't have contemporaneous documentation. A lot of clients forego SALT compliance because to them, the cost outweighs the act. But when the state comes knocking, you're going to have to navigate that lack of documentation. I don't know if too many clients audited by the state who raise their hand and say, no, I told my CPA not to prepare that return. My last example is the long standing client with recurring compliance that all of a sudden has new facts. Sometimes the practitioner isn't even aware of the new information when it's in their possession. If the planned scope anticipates 20 hours of work with commensurate fee, and now all of a sudden you realize the scope needs 50 hours of work. With a commensurate fee, the lack of an engagement letter is going to be a real problem when you send that bill for 2.5 times the fee that the client expected. Fee disputes are common claim drivers. April Walker: Those are great examples and the SALT one particularly. You just need to make sure I think in the engagement letters that are part of our toolkit, it specifically says that you need to list out the state returns you're going to do, but there needs to be, like you said, some documentation about you may have a nexus and exposure in these particular states and somehow document what the client is telling you to do. Then just a quick note on sometimes people will talk about unilateral engagement letters. Hey, we've had this client forever, and we're doing the same thing for them. Do we really need to get an engagement letter every single year? What's your thought on that? Michael Reese: I would say yes. You do need to get an engagement letter every single year. I'd say that for a couple of reasons. If your practice is still the practice 10 years later after you gave that original engagement letter, I'd be hard pressed to think that most people's practices and practices internally have changed. I think the engagement letter is a reflection of how your practice evolves and your quality control and what you're doing for a client. Two, depending on what's in your engagement letter, you want the engagement to actually end so that you're not indefinitely keeping open potential statute of limitations or potential liability. I'll give you a high level example. If you have an engagement letter and you say, I'm not going to do an engagement letter, I'll do the evergreen letter where it just continues on indefinitely. There's a question that engagement is still there. It's just an ongoing one really long engagement. Whereas if you have the engagement letter, you clarify the scope every year. By clarifying the scope every year, you limit your duty of care for that year and then it ends. When you look at the statute of limitations for liability, you can say okay this letter is done with, this statute is done with, anything related to the work done there, that's passed. You can't come back and argue with me about it, but if you have just this amorphous, non defined or ill defined client situation, you interject a lot of ambiguity and that can become a problem for liability purposes. It's really just best to make everything clean, do one letter a year, make sure the clients understand that when that letter ends or when that work delivers, that one's done. I'm not tied to you indefinitely. I may be tied to indefinitely as the client, but I'm not tied to indefinitely visa V that engagement. Next year, when the work comes up, issue another letter. It also helps you understand what the client needs. Or if the client's needs they changed and it's evolved, the letter is going to reflect that every year as opposed to just having one letter, it's old you push out the same one. If their needs have changed, that letter really needs to reflect it. April Walker: Good thoughts. Michael, I'm thinking about client education. I feel client education and communication is a big part of underlying a lot of what we talked about today. But I'm assuming you think it's an important role that we play in client education. But how can practitioners work on educating their clients about the importance of these engagement letters? Michael Reese: I don't know if it's so much educating them about the importance of the letters. They need to understand the letter aspect of it as well, but it really is educating clients on their role in the process and reinforcing the fact that whatever the client brings to your door, it's ultimately the client's responsibility, not the CPA's responsibility. It's the client's tax return. It's the client's tax planning. As your service provider, I can provide you with suggestions, guidance, or advice, but really it's up to you to make the decision. The engagement letter should confirm that and lay out with some specificity what that decision is and what the client needs to do to support that decision. One problem I saw from my own practice was that most clients concerns, especially around the engagement letter, started and stopped with a fee and the deliverable. It was very transactional. If the practitioner can impress upon clients that you're not a vending machine. They can't just drop off paper and money and expect magic. And that you client have to put some effort into the process too. That right there really helps everyone involved. I'll continue to harp on it, but things go a lot smoother when both practitioner and the client are on the same page. Client education can be a big help here because practitioners shouldn't take for granted that even their longstanding clients fully understand what's going on or what the process requires. On your question of how. It's never a bad idea to be open and upfront about both the service and the engagement letter and answering any questions the client may have. Some firms take this approach as part of onboarding new clients. I know you and I talked a little bit about onboarding before we got underway, but practitioners should be forewarned. The risks of misunderstandings between practitioner and client are not limited to new clients. Practitioners need to be able to talk about what's in their letter. That may require them to sit down with an attorney that helped draft the letter so that they know what certain provisions mean and where it's okay to be flexible. I might also challenge practitioners to not be afraid to openly discuss what might happen if things don't go as planned. Now, this doesn't have to be a doom and gloom or threatening conversation. But, hey, I need your help here to make this go smoothly and if I don't get your help, here's what the downside to you client might look like. I would hazard to guess that outside of a small population of clients that repeatedly get fired by their professional, most clients don't think about the prospect of what might happen if they don't hold up their end of the bargain. Talking about client responsibilities openly and soberly and what happens if the client doesn't support the work might help make this prospect not so remote. Because unless the client just doesn't care about their taxes, and those are out there. I have to believe most clients do not want the prospect of either paying some unexpected amount on the due date or trying to find assistance at the last minute. If you think about it, a lot of client angst really revolves around those two items, paying more than expected or necessary and having the government come back and stress them out later. Use that and have an honest conversation with the client about what they need to do to avoid either of those outcomes. Then make sure it's in your engagement letter. April Walker: Like I said, our conversation today boils down to communication and so I think those are good thoughts and good conversations to have. I mentioned it earlier but you and I are both in the public accounting world, and we're aware of the pressure that you can face with client demands and deadline demands and all of that. What do you think - do you have to balance that, with the need for thorough quality control? What are some of your thoughts around that question? Michael Reese: I'll challenge it a little bit just because. April Walker: That's fine. Michael Reese: I don't want your listeners thinking that they need to make a choice between quality control and something else. You and I both know when the clock hits the week before deadline, ten, 11, 12th, a lot of things start getting squishy, I guess, maybe is the best way. April Walker: Squishy is a good word. Michael Reese: You got hard rules all of a sudden those rules get a little squishy. The term balancing may give some the impression that if one end is weighted more heavily, the other one is up in the air. Practitioners shouldn't view the quality control as optional if their reputation is built on doing quality work.                                                              I think most if not all practitioners would say that's the case. I want to look at both parts of your question, thorough quality control and deadline pressure/client demands. Now, the most obvious answer to me for dealing with the pressure of a tight deadline and client demand is to not have deadline pressure or client demands. I know. Before I get laughed out of the room, I've had my share of deadline horror stories. We all have. The concept really isn't that outlandish. I'm starting to see a lot of evidence slowly, but surely practitioners are challenging that default notion that tax due dates have to be this pressure filled exercise that makes you wonder or question, why do I put up with this every year? If you can create optimal work conditions, that's a huge win rather than simply accepting that there's no alternative and suffering the consequences.  For those that aren't fully to a stress free deadline yet, and I know they're out there as well, your quality control, whether that's informal or it's a 50 page document that no one reads or refers to, it needs to be designed in a more intentional way. To me anytime you talk about quality control, I think you have to look at your process and your process design. Then you have to look at the people integral to the process, including the client. A lot of process is iterative, organic, reactive. When that happens, there's no design, there's no intentionality. You're just patching holes as they appear or responding to the latest impetus. On the other hand, when there is design, sometimes we fall into the trap of designing to a best case scenario instead of a worst case scenario or realistic scenario. Mistakes happen all the time, but I don't think it's far fetched or controversial thing to say that in periods of high stress and pressure, the likelihood of a mistake is higher. When I say process design requires intentionality, I'm really trying to highlight that the design needs to operate from the base assumption that the players involved aren't always going to do things in a rational, uniform or expected manner. The question is, can your process for quality control withstand the sheer hysteria of those last days before the due date? Because if it can, you're not really balancing quality control or sacrificing quality. Your system accounts for the insanity as a given and then responds appropriately. For those that have QC in place, I want you to ask yourself, are they rules or do they become suggestions in the face of competing interests? Do they become squishy, as we said before? Is it easy to rationalize an exception to the rule on April 13th compared to January 13th? Part of this depends on what habits you have as a professional. If you have strong habits, the answer or choice you make doesn't change regardless of day or situation. I think the last thing I want to say about QC design is often practitioners are challenged because they don't know what they don't know, and that is a real and legitimate hurdle. We completely understand that. We get a lot of calls on the risk management hot line where practitioners have never had to deal with this before and I get it. You can't design for what you don't know. But that's where I think you tap into your professional network, attend conferences, like National Tax Conference, where you and I will be and understand what resources are available to you, whether it's a tax section or your insurance carrier or your state society. There's tons of ideas out there, maybe too much, but there's nothing that says you have to keep doing it the same way and expecting a different outcome. I think that's called insanity. April Walker: I particularly love that we start off talking about engagement letters, but then we circle back to thinking about a new way to operate in tax, which I do think is possible and one of my passion projects. I love that. I just wanted to note another important aspect of quality control that in my mind, is a best practice for firms to minimize errors and omissions, and those are checklists that help you consider, have you addressed these key issues and making that not just a rote check. It's a real part of your procedures and really stepping away and making sure you have a process for all of the things. Making sure you have a process for getting your signed engagement letter before you start your work, making sure every return has some review procedure. Even if you're a very small practitioner you should have some kind of [review process]. Is it stepping away for a period of time before you look at the return again or something like that. Speaking of the checklist, they will be available soon in mid December as part of the annual tax compliance kit. Look forward to those. Thank you so much Michael for this discussion today. I think it was a good one and hopefully a educational one for our listeners. In closing on these podcasts, if you're a listener, I hope you are. You know that this next question is coming and so it's Tax Section Odyssey we're taking a journey together towards a better profession. In doing so I like to hear about my guest other journeys outside of tax. Talk to me about something that's on your bucket list or a recent trip you've had, something that you've got on the horizon. Michael Reese: I have not had any recent trips, but I do have an upcoming trip next month and then I will give you a bucket list one as well because I'm always happy to talk about bucket list travel. Next month and we started this maybe eight or nine years ago.  We took our daughter to Vienna for Christmas. We got away from the house for Christmas. I'm taking the family including the grandmothers. We are going to Germany to do Christmas markets. We're going to trips around Germany for about two weeks and visit a couple of Christmas markets and we'll make a pit stop in France to do some markets there. And my mother has never been overseas and so I'm really looking forward to that just reliving that child like joy that comes around the holiday season. That's what we'll be doing next month, lots of plans going into that. That will be a little bit of an odyssey as well because we'll see how well I can survive with my mother for 12 plus days. Shouldn't be an issue, but we'll see. Fingers crossed. April Walker: Inter-generational trips. Michael Reese: Exactly. I would say bucket list and I was talking to a couple of friends about this actually earlier this week, I would love to go to Easter Island and see the Moai and the Rapa Nui. That's a really long trip. But that's one that I think has been on my bucket list. If I can take that one off that would be really cool . I think maybe was it last month where Easter Island had the full solar eclipse? I would have loved to have been down there for that. But if I can get down there and check that out, I will definitely be in a good spot. April Walker: Wonderful. I look forward to hearing about your trip to Germany and the Christmas markets. That's definitely on my bucket list as well. Michael Reese: I will tell you all about it. April Walker: Again this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you and mine. This is a podcast from AICPA & CIMA together as the Association of International certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you find your podcast, and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already do thank you so much, and please feel free to share with a like minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax check out our other episodes and get access to all the resources, including those wonderful engagement letters mentioned during the episode. Thank you so much for listening.   Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

The AICPA & CIMA National Tax Conference will take place on November 11 and 12 in Washington, DC. Join Brandon Lagarde, Tax Partner at EisnerAmper, and April Walker, Lead Manager on AICPA & CIMA’s Tax Practice & Ethics team, to learn more about what to expect from the upcoming conference. Conference sessions will feature topics such as: The impact of election results on tax legislation: Investigate the potential legislative outlook based on the recent election results and how it might affect tax policies. Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) expiring provisions: Provisions of the TCJA are scheduled to sunset at the end of 2025; learn more about how to prepare and explore planning opportunities. Practical tax strategies: Sessions at the conference will cover various tax tactics, including gifting and income tax planning strategies, for clients who are not currently subject to estate tax. Ethical dilemmas in tax practice: A session will discuss common ethical dilemmas faced by tax practitioners and provide insights on how to handle them. The future of tax practice: Investigate the importance of transforming tax practices with year-round advisory services and how to implement these changes in a tax firm. AICPA resources AICPA & CIMA National Tax Conference — For tax practitioners, there’s no better place to get immersed in current events than the AICPA & CIMA National Tax Conference; in-person and virtual options are available. Reimagining your tax practice — Join us for free upcoming live roundtable sessions to tackle today’s top practice management issues with insights and tips from pioneers in the tax community. TCJA expiring provisions — This detailed, downloadable resource offers an in-depth look at the expiring provisions under the TCJA and other recent legislation. It categorizes changes across individual tax, estate and gift tax and business tax provisions, organized by year of expiration. Transcript Neil Amato: Welcome back to the Journal of Accountancy podcast. This is Neil Amato with the JofA. I'm excited to be joined for today's episode by two top flight tax experts in this special collaboration episode with the Tax Section Odyssey podcast with our guests, we're discussing the AICPA & CIMA National Tax Conference which begins November 11th in Washington. Those guests, April Walker, lead manager with the tax practice and ethics team and host of the aforementioned Tax Section Odyssey. Also Brandon Lagarde, tax partner at EisnerAmper and Chair of the Tax Conference Planning Committee. We have a lot to get to. We're excited to have you on. First, a quick welcome, April and Brandon, thanks for being repeat guests on the JofA podcasts. April Walker: Thanks so much for having me Neil. I'm excited to be here. Brandon Lagarde: It's very exciting to be here Neil. Thank you for having me. Neil Amato: Yeah, we're glad to have you both on as I said, the Tax Conference is November 11th, less than a week after election day. Brandon for you first, tell me what you're looking forward to about this event which is at the Omni Shoreham Hotel in Washington? Brandon Lagarde: Yeah. I'm looking forward to just go into DC. It's going to be a week after the election, hoping that we know who the president will be and what the makeup of Congress will be at that time. Again, it's going to be a great atmosphere, a great opportunity to go to the nation's capital, to hear from some of the best tax minds out there. Neil Amato: April, I know you're a repeat attendee at that conference. You're also running sessions, recording podcasts, taking part in panels. What do you look forward to from the event? April Walker: It's always a busy conference for me and I love being in DC and it's very exciting for me to be there, like Brandon said right after the election. Speaking of that, really what I'm looking forward to most is hearing more about what the potential legislation outlook could look like based on those results, based on those election results. I think we'll hear more about we've talked a lot about the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the TCJA, that it potential expiration, what that means. We'll really be able to dig into that at the conference. I'm excited about that. Neil Amato: It's almost like we planned this. My next thing was going to be the TCJA. Some of the provisions of that Act, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, are scheduled to sunset at the end of 2025. Clearly, there is a lot of uncertainty about the provisions right now as we record and the first part of October. But I imagine that topic is going to be a popular one at the conference. Brandon, What do you think? Brandon Lagarde: Yes, absolutely and that's why, again, being there at the heart of it all after the election and getting to hear from presenters and speakers about just what the future holds for tax professionals, end of 2024 is going to be really important for us. 2025 is going to be incredibly important for tax practitioners to understand and remind ourselves of here are all these provisions that we've been dealing with for the last seven years that are going to expire. What's going to happen? Where are we going to be? A lot of planning opportunities, lot of reason to get in front of clients to learn about what we have in the horizon. Again, that's why this conference, particularly just the time of the year. It is in the election cycle, and heading into 2025, 2026. It's probably the most important conference that's ever taken place. This is just a really important time for us to get together and to really try to figure out what's going to happen. Of course, we're not going to know exactly at that time, but at least start to have a better understanding, a clear picture of what we can expect and what should we be talking to clients heading into 2025? What are some things that need to be doing? Because you can't just turn on the switch in November of 2025 and start to really think about this. Right now is really the time to get ahead of it and remind ourselves what provisions are expiring? What do we need to start thinking about planning opportunities to get ahead of it? That's what's at stake at this time. April Walker: I love Brandon that you're setting the bar really high. The most important conference of all time. Here we go. Neil Amato: Yeah, that's great and because it's the most important conference of all time, we will include a link to the conference registration page with the agenda information and all of that in the show notes for this episode. One of the items on that agenda is being led by Marty Finn. He's a previous guest on the podcast. He has a session on tax and financial planning. When estate taxes don't matter. Now not to steal Marty's thunder. But can you give me a little preview of the highlights of that session? Brandon Lagarde: Certainly. We will spend a lot of time at this conference again, learning about the estate tax world and the sunset provisions and trying to navigate that. But the reality is a lot of our clients are not subject to estate tax. A lot of our clients are not having to worry about the sun setting provisions. We thought it was important to have sessions that not just focused on the top 1% of our clients, but to the 99% or to the large majority of our client base. Things like gifting strategies, what we need to be talking to clients about, who aren't necessarily dealing with the estate tax. Income tax planning strategies around that. Really just as practitioners, what do we need to be talking to clients about? We're not super focused on just estate tax and the ultra wealthy or the wealthy. That's one thing that we really try to work hard as committee in this conference is to find sessions that have a very practical application. That we can take away tips and tricks and things to our client base and back to our hometown and not just focused on the very academic discussion that a lot of tax practitioners like to have. That they can relate to. Try to have sessions that are very practical in nature and the Marty session is definitely one of those. He's going to do a great job giving some really good tips and tricks to people to bring home. Neil Amato: I liked the practical part you mentioned, and that leads me into another session that I want to ask you about. This is one that April is taking part in with Dan Moore and Mark Gallegos.The title of the session is Tax Practice makeover, transforming with year-round advisory services. Tell me some more about that session. April Walker: Yeah. I'm really excited about that session. A lot of what I do here at the AICPA is try to help practitioners think about the future, the future of Tax Practice, the future of what a firm could look like. So we had this idea to do like a makeover of a practice. We're going to talk about some of the different aspects of a practice that you could make over- billing, client focus. One of those is about adding advisory services. We'll talk more about that. So come and join us and learn how you could do a makeover of your practice. Neil Amato: That's great. Now another session with an intriguing title, this is you, Brandon and you April, test your tax ethics IQ. Now one that sounds like one that people have to do some homework on or some pre-reading, maybe I don't know, but tell us about that session. What's a flavor of it that you can tell attendees about now? Brandon Lagarde: We're going to try have fun with this session. Play some games that have come up with like a quiz atmosphere. I think April going to try bring a buzzer for people to buzz in and answer our questions. But really focus on ethical dilemmas. We're faced with ethical dilemmas daily, with clients who are either trying to push the boundaries a little bit or just get into some situations where they find themselves in a bad place. We're constantly being asked to address the situation with our client base. Whether you need amended return for XYZ reason. Can you take on a client because of what's going on? Do you need a fire a client? Because they may be trying to push the envelope a little bit. Really, there's a lot of ethical dilemmas that we face as practitioners. This is really a time for us to again, have some fun with it. To the extent that ethics is fun. We're going to try to test the audience and see what they think. It's always amazing if you ask a room of people what they think about certain tax ethic issue or are really just a tax topic. In a room of 100 people, there are probably 100 different opinions on what should be done. I think it can be fun. We're going to try have fun with it. Again, I really trying to also provide some education so if you find yourself in these situations, here's some things to consider. But again, April and I, we hope to have fun with that. April Walker: Just come visit us. There is no pre-work. To answer your question, Neil, there is no pre-work to the session. We'll take a lighthearted take on a potentially tough, dry subject. Neil Amato: Great, and this quiz is not graded. You still get the CPE as long as you're showing up, right? April Walker: Absolutely. Neil Amato: Well, good. One of the themes that I'm hearing is providing advice on the topic of expanding services beyond just, "Hey, we're going to do taxes for someone." But if someone said to you, maybe after a session, "Hey, I really liked what you said there. But gosh, I'm a smaller firm," or "It's only me. I don't know where to start." What do you tell them? April Walker: What I would do, if they came up to me and I hope they do. You can come up to me at our booth. You can come up to Brandon and I if you see us. We will likely be posted up in the bar at the Omni. Come see us anytime. But what I would tell you, we talk to small firms all the time. One thing I recommend them is come to a session that I do that's on the computer. It's not live at the conference, but it's called Reimagining your tax practice. I'm really more about re-imagining and having makeovers and that sort of thing it seems like. But in those sessions we really talk about the nitty-gritty. Sometimes it's hard to think about this big process of going from X to Y. We like to talk in those sessions about practical ways. I like to focus on the practical. How to actually get where you're going, or how to change things in your practice or how to change how you're operating. That's probably what I would say if you came up to see me wherever you might find me. Neil Amato: This has been great. We've mentioned session by Marty Finn. We've mentioned some sessions you are taking part in. Of course, we've mentioned that key acronym these days, TCJA. Brandon, in closing. Anything you'd like to add as we wrap up this Tax Conference preview episode. Brandon Lagarde: Yeah. Certainly. A couple of other terms you'll hear out there. AI, which we have a session. Transforming your tax practice. One thing we like to emphasize about all of our conferences, but certainly this one is, there'll be lots of sessions with lots of smart people talk speaking at these sessions with great content. A lot of times your challenge is which sessions do I go to. Because it's such a great hour, hour-and-a-half of content. You'd have to choose. At the moment, you do have to pick a session. But you have access to recordings of all the sessions after. I often go back and watch sessions that I wasn't able to attend because of that great content. It's just a wealth of information. Again, you get a little parting gift when you leave. Not only do you meet up, making new friends, meet people at the conference, talk about challenges you're facing with your colleagues and also hear some of the best speakers in DC and have a great time there. But you also get to have access to all the recordings after and watch the sessions after that you missed, and that is invaluable to have access to that content. Neil Amato: April, how about you? Anything to add in closing? April Walker: I think one thing that's really important about this conference being in DC, and we haven't mentioned yet, is the ability to have IRS speakers that come and speak to us. We're going to have the taxpayer advocate, Erin Collins. We'll have other IRS speakers scattered throughout the conference.That's another opportunity to really hear where they are on certain things and be able to ask them questions. Neil Amato: Yeah. That's great. It's a good reminder that there is that access to IRS officials every year at this conference. Really thank both of you for your time. Again, look forward to the conference November 11th, Brandon, April. Thanks for being on the JofA podcast. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

This podcast conversation with digital asset specialist Kirk Phillips, CPA, CMA, CFE & CPB, Managing Director — Global Crypto Advisors, focuses on demystifying IRS Rev. Proc. 2024-28, which provides guidance on transitioning from universal basis tracking for holders of digital assets and a safe harbor deadline of Jan. 1, 2025, to determine how to allocate any unused basis in digital assets. Phillips shares recommendations for tax practitioners around communicating with clients and the need for careful planning and documentation to meet the safe harbor provisions. What you’ll learn from this episode: Understand more about Rev. Proc. 2024-28 and what it means for holders of digital assets. Hear about the safe harbor provisions provided in the revenue procedure. Learn the importance of the Jan. 1, 2025, deadline for making a reasonable allocation of unused basis. Find out about the challenges of documenting and reconciling cost basis related to digital assets. How to communicate and prepare individuals and businesses for the upcoming changes related to reporting of digital asset transactions.  AICPA resources Digital assets and virtual currency tax guidance and resources — Sharpen your tax knowledge on digital asset and understand the tax complexities and strategies involved with virtual currency and cryptocurrency. AICPA advocacy resources AICPA makes recommendations for digital asset transactions regulations, March 7, 2024 Other resources Rev. Proc. 2024-28 — Guidance to allocate basis in digital assets to wallets or accounts as of January 1, 2025 Final Regulations 2024-07-09 — Gross proceeds and basis reporting by brokers and determination of amount realized and basis for digital asset transactions Transcript April Walker: Hello everyone, and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a lead manager from the tax section, and I'm here today with Kirk Phillips. Kirk is a CPA and it has a lot of other designations behind his name. But he's also more importantly for today's discussion, a specialist in the world of digital assets and crypto. [He's] been in it for a long time. Our goal today, Kirk, is to demystify some of this latest guidance that we've gotten from the IRS. We're definitely not going to be able to demystify all of it in the time we're just going to spend today. But there are some important deadline related items, so we want to make sure we're covering those. Kirk is on the AICPA's Digital Asset Tax Task Force. And for the past few months, we've actually been meeting weekly, which is unusual for a task force. Because really we've been discussing one thing, Revenue Procedure 2024-28. What it actually said, what it meant. Just really delving into that, the details of all of that. That's going to be the topic of what we're going to talk about today. What that means for tax practitioners and holders of digital assets. Especially like I said, there are deadlines around this safe harbor. Kirk, to start off. Welcome. Let's talk about I mentioned the deadline and let's talk about the significance of that January 1, 2025 deadline for making that reasonable allocation of unused basis. That's what the Rev Proc says. Talk to us a little bit about what that means, what you're thinking about, what practitioners should be doing now to prepare for that date. Kirk Phillips: Sure. Thank you so much April for having me on the podcast. I love talking digital assets and crypto, whether it's tax-related or otherwise. I'm excited to help demystify this Rev Proc. One of the key things here is that and why this is so important is we both have a short timeline. Because we're already nearing the last quarter of the year 2024. It's also very challenging - it's a onetime exercise that we have to go through and on a short timeline. That's why this is critical and that's why we're here today to talk about that. One of the key things here is that prior to this Rev Proc that the taxpayers would do their accounting for the digital asset transactions, which would be their trading or their sales, and it could be other related transactions as well. But basically they would do all the accounting on a universal basis. The question is, what does universal basis mean? Universal basis means that whether you have one wallet or one exchange account or you've got 37 wallets and six exchange accounts or even something more crazy than that, you would for the most part, more than 99% of the time people would use specialized tax software because that's really the only way to get the job done. You would connect all those things and or import your transactions into the software and it would essentially co-mingle all those transactions. I like to say as if it was one wallet or as if it was a single exchange. But it's not simply for the tracking purposes, all the transactions are simply dumped together and you perform one set of accounting. That's what the universal [method] is. Now, you can no longer use universal. You have to do a wallet by wallet, account by account basis. Which means that if you, again using those same numbers I did in my example there. If you had 37 wallets, that means you essentially have to do 37 different sets of accounting for those. I think that without knowing even anything more about it, an accountant hearing that would say, "Wow," immediately that sounds like that could be challenging, that could be a lot more work, and so on. There could be issues around that. And all those things are true. Because of this short timeline between now and the end of 2024 and essentially we're talking here at the end of September, so we got one-quarter left to do this. The important thing here is if you have any channels to communicate with your clients, the first thing to do would be to communicate with them and let them know, "Hey, there's this Rev Proc 2024-28." Maybe, perhaps even provided a link if you want to, and or read that yourself in detail at least once. But there's a lot of other things that you can lean on in AICPA guidance, of course. But just to send that out, in other words, you don't have to know it in detail before communicating. You should start the process communicating right now to say, "Hey, there's a lot to unpack here. I'm just letting you know there's going to be more that's coming. Be on the lookout. We're going to do a series of blogs on this or whatever it is you do or a newsletter, segments, and things like that. I think that's probably the number one thing to start off with is start the communication now, because this is not a one-shot communication thing. This is a series of communications that you're going to need to do. Whether you're just providing value to non-clients or you're working with current clients, you're going to need them to be thinking in steps and increments along the way. April Walker: Yeah. That's a lot of what we've been talking about over the past couple of months. Who this actually applies to you and who needs to really take notice of this? I think that's a great suggestion. Our listeners might be thinking, "Hey, I didn't know that we are not allowed to use universal method of basis allocation anymore. Did that come from the revenue procedure or where did that come from?" Kirk Phillips: Well, that actually came from the digital asset broker regulations. But then what happened is in the process of those becoming final and the fact that universal [tracking] comes to an end. And we have to do the wallet by wallet approach. What arises from that is a onetime exercise of how do we get from one thing to the other thing? How do we get from point A to point B? April Walker: The Sec. 6045 regs, which are long and complicated. Again, like Kirk said, we'll continue to create resources around all of this information because it's a lot to unpack. In the revenue procedure, it talks about a safe harbor. As we're transitioning between universal and wallet by wallet, the procedure provides a safe harbor. Let's talk about what are the key criteria that qualify you for using that safe harbor and give some of the requirements for it and so talk a little bit about that. Kirk Phillips: Sure. That's one of the big things here is what are those key criteria for the safe harbor? Of course, another thing is we're wondering what is it actually a safe harbor from? There's going to be more to come on that. Because that's actually not super clear and usually that is when it comes to safe harbor. The critical things here are that you have two methods that you can follow in this universal transition process. From universal cost basis tracking. In that transition process you can use a specific units method or you can use a global allocation method. In either case, you need to do some work before the end of the year arrives at 12-31-24, or before January the 1st, whichever way you want to say that. Those two methods are two distinct ways of doing it. You might say that the global allocation method is more straightforward and less work or less complicated. But let's just unpack those briefly. There's more to dig into on these, but this is a brief touchpoint. Let's start with global allocation. Global allocation, I like to think of it as more like a recipe. There's more than one way to get the "cake baked". Because you've got your grandmother's recipe and you've got your own style and you've got things like that and things in the cookbook. So you can arrive at a different cake, but if you follow the recipe, you're going to get the same cake. Basically, another way I like to say it too, is if you come up with a global allocation, which is simply saying, "You know, what I want to do is I want to allocate my Ethereum, my ether. And I want to take some low-cost basis. Maybe you could say, "I want to use my oldest cost basis and I want to apply it to my oldest wallets." For Bitcoin, I had only two Bitcoin wallets and one of them, it's only collected Bitcoin, received Bitcoin, it hasn't sold any. Say, you want to allocate maybe what's already there. Whatever it is, you're really defining a process. You're not actually going through with the process, you're simply defining it. The key distinction about global allocation is, if you define the process and if you were to give it to, let's say another CPA, they will come up with the same answer. If you give it to CPA A, CPA B, or CPA C, they should all come up with the same answer. It's very systematic. That's the distinction there. Now with the specific units, it's simply user's choice. Like in baseball, it's a fielder's choice. It's user's choice. It's however you want to allocate it specifically. Again, you have to follow the date. You can't break the date in the basis or a specific lot based on the date that it was purchased. You can't break that up. At that level that's as granular as you can get. If there was a lot or a tranche of Bitcoin or whatever, AVAX, or just pick your favorite coin and that was purchased on a certain date. You can't break up the date because the date piece has to be maintained and be consistent. Anyway, that's really just a user's choice scenario. That's the difference because you can't give that method to three other CPAs and have them come with the same result because that's not what it is. It has nothing to do with following a process. It's simply just a user's choice. Now the key thing on the dates there is that the specific units method has to be conducted and finalize before the end of the year, before the last day of the year. With the global allocation method, you just need to come up with the formula for doing it by the end of the year. But you actually can apply the formula to get the allocation after that. That's a super important point right there. Under global allocation, you also have until either the original due date or even the extended due date of the tax return if you did not conduct a transaction. The key is not having any transactions. You've got to put a halt to your transactional activity until you apply the global allocation method. But it does buy you more time to do it. You just gotta be careful because that's how you could throw off the safe harbor. And ruin the safe harbor if you don't put a halt to the transactions before doing the allocation. April Walker: You mentioned in one of our discussions is about what is this a safe harbor from? Based on our best discussions and where we think we are now, what do you think about that? What is it a safe harbor? What is our alternative if we blow this safe harbor. Kirk Phillips: That's a great question. It looks like it would be a safe harbor prospectively from this day forward or the end of the year exercise that we're talking about forward. We're not sure about retroactively. It mentioned if you don't follow the safe harbor, you can incur penalties and interests. As I recall that's about as deep as it goes. You could draw an inference from that and say, if I don't follow the safe harbor, does that mean that all of my transactional activity, all my reporting for the prior years could be recast and recalculated under different cost basis method. And therefore end up with a different tax liability than you originally calculated. Those things can be worst-case scenario. We just don't really know. April Walker: Usually when you have a safe harbor, you have rules of what to do and how to document that you have met that safe harbor. Again, things we've struggled with. Seems like a simple question right? But I'm telling you a lot of smart people in the room, this is not a simple question.  Kirk, as we know it now, what types of documentation do we think will be good enough to substantiate that we have met that safe harbor as of 1/1/25. Kirk Phillips: That's right. You could actually take an action. You could perform your allocation, and you could do this all before the end of the year. The question is, how do you prove that you've done it before the end of the year? People have talked about, well, you could have files saved that because you can look and see what a file date is, the modification date of a file. But then you could also later open up the file, not even change anything but potentially open a file, change the modification date. If that was something that is being looked at, then that could be an issue there. This is really where it comes into use in your CPA skills to figure out what's a good way to document. We're already good at that. Even in the world of not knowing, you can come up with "well I think I should do this" to document. One of the things is if there's a way to send an email to yourself. Time stamping on emails is one way to do things like that. Just in the larger world of documentation. Like I said, everybody is relegated to using specialized crypto tax software. You might as well say everybody uses crypto tax software. Then the question is, which one do you use? Because they're all different. They all have issues and so on. But hopefully regardless of the software, it would allow you to export an end of the year holdings report or an inventory report. That's essentially what it is because the data is in the software and if that's going to be one of the key things is, can I get that report? Let's just assume that you do. The first thing you do is to export that report. That's going to be the basis and the starting point for doing an allocation. Let's fast forward just a second. Let's say you go through the allocation however long that happens and let's say you're done. For example you could say, let me attach that file now. Again, figuring out how do you document. You could attach that file in an email or you're copying [yourself] with your client and maybe there's other members in the firm as well. Maybe there's a specifically designated digital asset person who want to get copied. But nonetheless, that would create an email timestamp on it and that document is attached to it. That's one way that you can actually document that these things were done ahead of time. I guess if we want to dive into documentation further again, I was talking about that inventory being a starting point. Regardless of whether you use this global allocation that we spoke about or specific units allocation. You would need to take the starting point of the ending balances or the inventory and then you need to take your wallets. Then you need to then allocate the basis that's in the wallet. Because remember it's on a universal basis. Now you're trying to allocate it on a wallet by wallet. You then need to go through it, but it's difficult to describe it without seeing a visual. But basically you would allocate all of the inventory that starting to all of the current wallets that you have. Again it depends on what method you're using. But at the end of the day, what you're trying to achieve is you want to get a proof. We all love proofs, and this is one way to do it. What's the proof? The proof is the check total. It could be a check total per asset, for example that you've allocated all the Bitcoin, you've allocated all the ether, you've allocated all the Solana, the AVAX, the whatever. You've allocated everything so that the check totals on the top match the check totals on the allocation. That's how you know that you've done it and it is complete and correct. Is by doing the methodology that is like that. Because if you don't do that then there's really no way to know that it's complete. You got to have checked totals and arrive at the same numbers and then that's how you do it. Again it can be challenging because it's depends on what's the quality of the data that you're starting with. One of the big challenges is I think all the software has different types of issues, limitations, certain features some have that others don't have and things like that. The first thought might be from the accountant mindset oh, if I split this inventory report out it's accurate. But the thing is, it's most likely not accurate. There's going to be issues with it. You're actually starting with something that's not solid in the first place, which creates a whole other set of challenges. But we can't dig too far into that one right now. April Walker: I was just went back into my way back machine and I was doing proofs and doing double underlines and I was getting really excited. I think that's a great point. If you are using software for yourself or for your clients, you need to, just like with everything we would say, you're not printing it out and then just putting it in a file or somewhere and never looking at it again. You got to make sure that it's not garbage in, garbage out situation. Again, lots of potential steps in this seemingly simple, allocate your basis comment. Another thing we've talked about is the role of brokers. Because eventually in the years to come, I'm sure you're aware, there's going to be in a form 1099-DA. And there's going to be reporting of digital assets and then hopefully there's going to be at some point, [cost] basis on those forms. Again, happy little world the basis is going to be equal to what you think it is and everybody's happy. I think we know that it's going to be much more difficult than it sounds, but let's stay simple for the moment. Let's talk about how that revenue procedure 2024-28 impacts how a broker might communicate with your clients regarding interactions with brokers and how this might be a help eventually. Kirk Phillips: That's all a great question and it's interesting how just the broker side of things, what were the centralized digital assets exchange. Because that's what we're talking about. It's just the two ways of saying it. But just to be clear what we're talking about because we have decentralized exchanges. Then the other side of that is the brokers and the centralized exchanges. And so that creates a whole another set of unique things and considerations with the brokers. And how they're going to report basis because they're the ones that are required to do it right now. We don't have it on the self custody side. I guess the overarching thing is you could end up with perpetual mismatches. And when I say perpetual, they could go on forever - definition of the word. But it could go on for a very long time. Just to make a point there, you have a perpetual mismatch between what you have been tracking with your crypto tax software and what the broker actually has on file. If it was Coinbase, for example, Coinbase and the assets that are on Coinbase were actually purchased there. Coinbase is going to have a record in that scenario. Then your tax software may have under the universal method have already spent some of that basis. Because again, those transactions are treated as if it was all one big wallet. You've got a mismatch off the start, even if you do a proper allocation on your own side, you may not even know what the broker has. So the question is, how can you communicate with the broker and let them know? The centralized exchange services or these brokers, they can receive user provided basis, but they're not required to, but they may accept it. If you have some that accept it, that may be one path that you could try to match up what you have from your allocation and communicate that to the broker so it matches up. But again, that's not going to be perfect because not every centralized exchange is going to do that. Only some of them are. Even in cases where they do provide that as a courtesy to their customers, that's not a magic wand either. If there's other things that can happen there, we could get into the weeds further on that. But one of the things is when you transfer in tokens to a broker, that they don't have any cost basis there. Again, if you wanted to report it because they're accepting it, yes. Otherwise they wouldn't have the information. There's just no way for them to know. If you think about the different assets that they may have in your account, they're going to have some that they know the basis for which would be the ones that you traded with them. Then they're going to have other transferred in assets from customers and they're not going to have any basis information on that. That just exacerbates the issue of what basis they have, what information they have and what's getting reported. You're going to have basically you could have 1099-DAs and so on that get reported on your behalf or the basis information is not correct. I think you know what is going to happen in those cases. You can imagine the challenges of trying to reconcile. That's what it was going to come down to is creating a really challenging reconciliation process with what the broker reported and the software with the software not really having features enough to give you reconciliation, the ability to reconcile to the degree that we're talking about. April Walker: We've talked a little bit about there are times certainly where you get it 1099-B and the basis that the broker reports, doesn't match for this or that reason? It can be inherited and who knows a couple of different scenarios. But generally, you can rely on what the basis is. I'm not sure that's going to be the case in this situation. But again, we're just scratching the surface on some of these complex issues. More from an issue highlighting, you can recognize that this is coming. Kirk, This has been great, we've covered a lot of great information, gives us some good takeaways as we're wrapping up listening to this podcast and what can practitioners do in the next quarter coming up or then as they're starting working on a 2024 tax returns. Kirk Phillips: Yes, I've got some great key takeaways and key points here. Then again, these things will be some of the stuff that I was suggesting in the beginning where you incorporate it into your blogs and newsletters, etc. This ongoing communication that's going to be critical. One of those could be strategically setup and tee up this allocation process in such a way that it is less complicated and has less issues. There's really going to be a strategy that could alleviate some of that. It's not relegated to whatever challenging process is going to be for any specific client. One way you can do that as potentially consolidating wallets. If there's an example, like I said, the client that's got the 37 wallets and the six exchanges. You can consolidate those down. Now whether it whittles down to a single wallet, probably not, with that many for various different reasons. But if you could go from, say, 37 and six, what's that? Forty three. If you go from 43 and you're able to whittle that down to say four or five. You're automatically going to have less challenges and the less complicated allocation process. Really strategically consolidating assets and wallets is one way that could make this process easier. And then also similar and in conjunction with that could be to take the assets off the exchange. Because again, if you don't have the ability to communicate with that particular broker because they're not receiving user provided information. If you take the assets off the end of the year, and then you put it back, they're going to have a zero basis. Again, that's its own issue, but I think it's the lesser of the evils, if you will. It's a better scenario for them to have a zero basis because then you're going to report something for it. Rather than they have some number and you have some different numbers. It's kinda like cost basis cleansing and you could call it that. The other thing here is the third key takeaway. I talked about all crypto software has limitations and challenges and issues, all different from one another. You really need to know [whether the software can help]. For example, if a software provider is going to provide some tooling to be able to help in this process, they may actually provide it to the user. And say, hey, you could just click a box here and we're going to lock down the inventory. Then we're going to do this reallocation for you and you think to yourself, that's great. I don't have to do any of the work, but you're still going to need to check that. You can't just rely on that. Then furthermore, if there is anything [available] like that, the question [comes] back to safe harbor. Does just checking a box, is that an action that proves that I took an action, a timely action, and allows me to be in the safe harbor or not. I think one of the best takeaways is, regardless of any of these pathways, is that you got to have a workpaper of some sort. And it says, I examined this. Here's a work paper that shows I did the work. Because it's one of the things that the software doesn't lock down the previous inventory. Find out what software the person uses. Because you may know or you may not know. It depends how you work with the client. [You need to] really understand what is that software provider doing to handle this. That's another key thing. This is really a big, interesting brain teaser for CPAs who were in the digital asset space. April Walker: For sure and we appreciate you taking a walk with us down, at least to start or the path and more to come. Kirk, this first time you've been with me on this podcast. We call it Tax Section Odyssey. We think of it as an Odyssey, a journey toward a better profession. In doing that, I like to get a glimpse of my guests other journeys outside of the world of tax. What's something on your travel bucket list? Something you have planned. Give me something to add to my bucket list. Kirk Phillips: Yes. I will be going to Orlando in about a month to see my sister and I don't get to see her much. But one of the things I like to do is backpacking. I am involved with Scouts and I discovered backpacking in 2021 for the first time. I just love going on the Appalachian Trail and all different kinds of trails,  whether it's with Scouts or other things. That's one of the things I like to do a lot. April Walker: Nice being outside and in nature and there's some beautiful places to hike for sure. You'll have to share some pictures from your hike when you're back with us. Thanks again, Kirk. This was very informative for me, as it always is. I didn't give a shout out to our digital asset page, but I will certainly put it on the resources. Again this April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioner like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts and we encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much and please feel free to share with a like-minded friend. You can also find us at aicpa-cima.com/tax and check out our other episodes, as well as getting access to resources mentioned during this episode. Thank you so much for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

David Snider, founder and CEO of Harness Wealth, dives into technology's transformative power in tax advisory. He outlines three critical phases of tech adoption that firms must embrace. Snider emphasizes the importance of practice management software to enhance operational efficiency and client engagement. He advocates for proactive communication with clients, especially during peak tax seasons. The conversation also touches on the necessity of investing time and resources in new technologies for lasting impact in the industry.

This Tax Section Odyssey podcast episode takes a deeper dive into the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s (OECD) initiative on Base Erosion Profit Sharing (BEPS) 2.0 which sets to reform the internation tax system with Pillar 1 and 2 tax regimes. In addition to the complexity of such international regulations, the political landscape for U.S. implementation is uncertain, and potential action is needed from Congress. Cory Perry, Principal, National Tax — Grant Thorton Advisors, and Vice Chair of the AICPA’s International Technical Resource Panel (TRP), highlights that while many U.S. companies may not face larger tax bills if these regimes are adopted in the U.S., the administrative and compliance challenges are significant. The AICPA has submitted comment letters to the OECD, Treasury, and the IRS, focusing on simplification and clarification of rules. AICPA resources OECD BEPS 2.0 - Pillar One and Pillar Two — The OECD BEPS 2.0 sets out to provide a tax reform framework allowing for more transparency in the global tax environment. What you need to know about BEPS 2.0: Pillar One and Pillar Two | Tax Section Odyssey — The OECD BEPS 2.0 project is an international effort to reform the international tax system that addresses transfer pricing, profit allocation and tax avoidance. Advocacy Comments to Treasury on tax issues of OECD Pillar Two, Feb. 14, 2024 Comments to Treasury on Amount B of OECD Pillar One, Dec. 12, 2023  Other resources OECD BEPS — Inclusive Framework on Base Erosion and Profit Sharing Transcript April Walker: Hello everyone and welcome to the AICPA's Tax Section Odyssey podcast, where we offer thought leadership on all things tax facing the profession. I'm April Walker, a lead manager from the tax section and I'm here today with my colleagues Reema Patel and Lauren Pfingstag. They are colleagues here with me at the AICPA. They are international experts and legislative experts. We'll get into more of that as we're discussing. I'm also delighted to have with me Cory Perry. Cory is a principal with Grant Thornton Advisors and their national tax office. He's also, and more importantly for our discussion today but probably not more importantly for his day-to-day, the Vice Chair of the AICPA's International Tax Resource panel and Chair of the OECD taskforce. That's what we're going to be talking about today. If you are a follower and listener of this podcast, you might recall a few episodes ago we did a higher-level background on OECD's tax regimes — Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 — just laying the groundwork. Today we're going to talk more about why we think you need to be familiar with these concepts. Even though for today they may not be relevant for any of your current clients. We're also going to delve into the political landscape and where we are today and what that could mean for the US tax system related to international tax legislation. Reema, I'm going to let you take it away for the next little bit. Reema Patel: Thanks, April, Cory, welcome. I know a lot of us have been hearing about the OECD Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 for awhile now. Many countries have also implemented it this year and some are implementing it next year. I guess the most basic question we can start with is, who should care and pay attention to this? Cory Perry: Absolutely. It's a wide impact in tax, but it only impacts the largest of the large companies. I would say it has a high threshold, 750 million of consolidated revenue and two of the four preceding years and you have to be taxed, want more than one jurisdiction. We are talking about very large companies but these days, even middle market companies are easily starting to bump up against that threshold. We're not just talking about the Fortune 100. We're talking about middle market and above companies that should care and think about these rules. Obviously accountants that serve those types of companies, those larger companies. I think many of those companies themselves not even be fully aware that they're subject to these rules or may not have fully thought through how they're going to comply. The other thing I would add, there is a bit of a misconception out there that this is a corporate multinational problem. Although that is primarily where it is, it also impacts pass-throughs, partnerships and S corps that are parents within these groups can be equally subject to these rules. Rules don't always necessarily apply at that level, but they are applied to the group as a whole. I know there's a number of practitioners out there that have clients that have grown over time and might have reached this level. It's by no means going to be the majority, certainly going to be a large minority, but I suspect many will have clients out there that might be impacted or if you're in-house at your company might be impacted. Reema Patel: Like you said, it is for large corporations currently with consolidated revenues at 750 million euros and more. What are you seeing with the clients right now? Any challenges that they're being faced by technology? Gathering data points? I know you have to comply with many foreign jurisdictions as well as the US. Can you speak a little bit to the challenges that you're seeing just as a practitioner as well as from a client perspective as well for them. Cory Perry: Absolutely. Companies are really still trying to get their hands around this as are practitioners. Even the rules aren't fully baked. The OECD is still releasing new guidance every couple of months on quite a frequent cadence. So the rules continue to evolve and how companies are approaching it continue to evolve as well. As far as challenges, interestingly enough, from what we're seeing, many companies are not actually seeing larger tax bills. You'd think tax legislation, tax change like this is going to hit the bottom line and there are certainly companies out there with lower/no taxed pockets of income or that are in low-tax jurisdictions. But what I've found is the vast majority, particularly of middle market companies, are generally not in many of these low-tax jurisdictions, if at all. They are in higher tax jurisdictions, think of the US's top five trading partners- for example, Canada, Mexico, China, and Japan and the UK all have rates above or even some cases well above 15%. The idea is to reach a minimum level of 15% and once you're above that, there may not be additional top-up tax to be paid. It may not be necessarily for all taxpayers an item that's going to really be a cash tax impact. But where we're really seeing the challenge is more on the administrative and compliance side to this. It is a very significant undertaking to comply with these rules. It's just a massive effort that's required in order to get your hands around what needs to be done, get your systems updated so that you can comply and collect the information or the data at the right level, clean the data, so on and so forth. There was a lot of complex calculations that need to be done. In some cases there may be even third or four sets of books that need to be kept that you may not have been keeping our tracking in the past. The rule started out with a simple premise. It was going to be a book tax based on books. That sounds simple. But it quickly evolved into a very complex tax regimes that sits on top of all the other global tax regimes that are already in place. If it wasn't complicated enough before, now we have another layer over the top making it quite complex. That's certainly been the biggest challenge is how do you deal with all of this change and international tax complexity when you're operating across borders. Reema Patel: Definitely, I guess it just keeps piling all the time. Three sets of books, four sets of books. We don't even have CAMTI [rules] out yet. Speaking of which currently, it looks like, as we mentioned it's for large corporations, but what do smaller firms and CPAs in the industry need to know? I'm sure they're not getting into the nitty-gritty details of how to calculate pillar two taxes and all the top up taxes on different regimes. But we don't know if the threshold does get lowered, more companies will get pulled in, possibly. What should they know? How can they keep up with and at least be aware that it's out there? Cory Perry: I think at this point I would say it's more of a client service point. It's being aware of the potential risks in an area where your client might be subject to these rules. I don't expect many firms will have many clients that are going to be impacted. In fact, many firms might not have any clients that are impacted. But it's making that identification and helping those clients understand whether they are impacted. It is getting a lot of press and it's in the Wall Street Journal, it's on NPR in the morning, it's certainly in the mainstream news. Clients are interested in asking questions about it. It's understanding that it's out there, what it is and who it applies to. I think that's the most important part, I don't expect most smaller firms will scale up or hire experts in this area necessarily. But I think helping those clients with the identification - that's going to be greatly appreciated. You're highlighting a risk area for them that they might not have previously considered. Then helping them find a resource that can assist with this somewhat unique area of tax. Whether that'd be another CPA firm in the US or more commonly, sometimes these are non-US firms because right now, as we'll talk about later, the US is not implemented these rules that could certainly assist. Again, flagging these as issues, being aware of those thresholds and who it might apply to is probably the area I would focus right now and making sure that your base has been reviewed. And they understand whether they're going to be in or out these rules. Reema Patel: Definitely. I guess just building on what you said. It's been in the news everywhere. We've also heard in the news — What's the U.S going to do? The US hasn't implemented or enacted any part of pillar two regime yet. Until they do or they don't, the U.S. multinationals are going to have to comply with this. They have to comply in the foreign jurisdictions. They have to comply in the U.S. as well. But there has been limited guidance issued. [There was] a notice earlier in the year, and then the recent proposed regs on dual consolidated losses. But none of them really went into detail. It was just like scratching the surface. There's a lot of guidance that the U.S. taxpayers need. I know the AICPA's submitted a few comment letters to the OECD, to Treasury and the IRS, and you've been heavily involved in some of them. Do you want to just speak to a little bit on what we highlighted in the comment letters, some of the recommendations and concerns we raised in hoping for some future guidance. Cory Perry: Sure. You made a good point there with scratching the surface. I think there's a lot of ground yet to be covered by the IRS. As I said earlier, this is a complex system that lays on top of a complex system. The US [tax] system is undoubtedly the most complex tax system out there. There are a number of different interesting and intricate ways in which these two systems interact. The IRS is working diligently, but I think [they are] only beginning to understand where some of these issues and gaps might be in regulation. They're trying to hit the bigger ones first which they've done with then notice package and the regulations. The notice addressed primarily, but not exclusively, foreign tax credit issues and how the US is going to view these new taxes, really novel taxes that have been created under this Pillar 2 system. And how that's going to interact with the US foreign tax credit system. Then just a week and a half or two weeks ago, they also released proposed regulations dealing with a number of dual consolidated loss issues. One of the major issues they addressed was the Pillar 2 area. The dual controlidated loss rules, those very complex rules, but suffice it to say they are rules that are intended to address double-dipping of losses between two systems. Really, now that we have this overlay, we have this third system that you have to contend with where losses can be used in the U.S. and in that third system and that makes that already challenging system quite complex. I would say a detailed discussion of our comment letters is probably a little bit weedy for this discussion but I'll give some themes and some areas that we focused on in those comment letters. The first I would say is a call for simplification. That was really our focus with most of our efforts in this space. We asked for exceptions and safe harbors from application of some of these very onerous rules. We focused on areas where there wasn't much opportunity for abuse but there was a lot of opportunity to save taxpayer's and CPAs time and effort to have to do some of these calculations that might be, in some cases unnecessary. Or you could make various safe harbor type assumptions. We focus on simplification. Clarification was another area where we focused on. There's a lot of gray out there and there will continue to be. But we focused on a few areas of gray within these rules that we had identified that we thought the IRS could add clarity. Beyond those, we also provided some comments, or we're working on some comments, not just to the IRS, but also to the OECD. There we were focusing on, again, clarification and simplification but with U.S. and multinational corporations in mind. Really the focus is on some of the safe harbors that are out there. There's transitional safe harbors that allow for shortcuts, if you will, that make the work much simpler. But many of those are temporary and they're set to expire in a couple of years and we're making some comments around those. One of them being a request that those be made permanent for taxpayers in an effort to simplify this very complex system. April Walker: Thanks so much Cory. You did a wonderful job for me. Definitely not an international tax expert by any stretch of the imagination and it was made it easy to understand where we are. I'd like to pivot a little bit now and have Lauren take us away. I don't know if anybody knows but there's an election coming up in a couple of months and so I thought it would be interesting if we would talk about what does our political landscape mean for what the U.S. is going to do around this? Lauren, tell us what you know all around this area. Lauren Pfingstag: Thanks for inviting me to join the podcast, April. Cory, I think a lot of professional congressional watchers would say in this space that there's going to eventually need to be some action taken by Congress to move Pillar 2 forward. What would that look like right now? Cory Perry: It's certainly a challenge, I would say in our current environment to move Pillar 2 legislation forward. To give a little bit of background on where it's been. Historically from a political sense, the Pillar 2 rules have been a core aspect of Biden's tax platform. He attempted to move them through the Build Back Better bill a few years ago, that ultimately failed in the Senate. But they remain, and they were in his most recent greenbook, a core part of his plan. I believe they will continue to be a part of the Harris tax platform. I have no reason to believe that will change as well as the Democratic agenda going forward. It has broad support on the Democratic side. The Republicans side historically had support there but more recently they've been openly critical, I'll say of Pillar 2. They've noted their concerns in public forums and expressed frustrations with the negotiation process. There are certainly some challenges there. It's not impossible that we could see some legislation move forward in the short-term particularly if we had, for example, a Democratic controlled government. If we had a Republican controlled government, I think the chances go down. With that said, there are some other factors on the horizon that could influence this from a political perspective. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, tax cuts for individuals expire in the end of 2025, beginning of 2026. Many of the favorable business provisions like the GILTI rate, the BEAT rate, the foreign derived intangible rate, and a variety of others. Those are just the international ones, but those are set to expire the end of 2025 for tax years beginning in 2026. That sets up an interesting opportunity where perhaps we could see some compromise, maybe a budget reconciliation bill where it's not along party lines, depending on which way the government swings. Obviously, we might need some collaboration there. If we don't have a democratic government, we might see something later in 2026 in terms of legislation. There is a path forward although it does look like a challenging one. Lauren Pfingstag: Is it true that implementing part of Pillar 2 legislatively would potentially raise revenue over a 10-year budget window? Meaning, if Congress were to move forward with a piece of legislation that put Pillar 2 into play, that they would raise a certain amount of money that could be used to pay for other provisions and a larger let's call it end of year 2025 tax bill? Cory Perry: Absolutely yes. It would be a revenue raiser. Right now, if it's not imposed, other countries might be taxing the United States under the way these systems operate. Subsidiaries, for example, could be taxed in the U.S. if it's in an effective rate less than 15%. There's certainly revenue on the table and free revenue. If you think about it, you could tax in the U.S. or you could tax it in the foreign country. If we tax in the U.S. first, they're not going to tax in the foreign country. It is a revenue raiser. I think it was scored that way in the Build Back Better bill. It would certainly be a pay-for those types of extensions of those expiring tax cuts that I mentioned. That's why I think it could be a lever that could be pulled in those negotiations to help further the Pillar 2 legislation in US in exchange perhaps for some of those other items. Lauren Pfingstag: Particularly if the Democrats, as you said, did win control of the White House, the House and the Senate this November. I think this is more of a note rather than a question, but I think West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin, who was one of the most, if not the most moderate Democrats in the Senate, was instrumental in pulling Joe Biden's vision for Pillar 2 out of the Build Back Better bill. When you look ahead into 2025 and you think through the different Senate races, Senator Joe Manchin is retiring, you no longer have Senator Sinema from Arizona who is retiring. It's hard to pick out who in the Democratic caucus in the Senate, at least in 2025, could play, or would want to play the role of a Joe Manchin and maybe stripping that out of a democratic tax reconciliation bill if we get to that Democratic trifecta of power. I'll be keeping my eye on that for sure. Cory Perry: I wholeheartedly agree. Keeping their caucus together was a challenge last time and it seems like it could potentially be easier at least. Lauren Pfingstag: This is obviously just holistically like a weedy, thorny topic. In my conversations across D.C., I have only met a few people, and I don't count myself among them — who really understand this. It's incredibly complicated and if you were in a room with the tax aides who staff members on the House Ways and Means Committee and the U.S. Senate Finance Committee and you could deliver one or two key messages to them about this, what would you want to tell them and have them relay to their bosses? Cory Perry: I think there's a couple of key messages and themes here. One, I would say the world is moving forward with or without us in terms of pillar 2. At some point, I think there was thought and perhaps that thought might still exist in some, but I think there was a thought that this wouldn't move forward without the US and some of the larger economies like China and India signing on. But that's shown not to be the case. It's been enacted and legislated in the E.U.. All the E.U. member states have adopted it. There's dozens of countries across the world at this point with many more being added every month. It certainly has broad international support and it's moving forward with or without us. What does that mean? I think that means US multinationals in particular might face some challenges if U.S. doesn't enact legislation. If U.S. enacts, there is a benefit from that. They would pay the tax most likely at the U.S. level. They'd be able to file returns at the U.S. level. They'd be able to work through the U.S. government to use the information exchange mechanisms to make sure the foreign countries have received the reporting that they need and not to mention it would shut off the under taxed profit rule (UTPR) which is beyond the scope of our discussion today but it's a complex rule. I'd describe it as the backstop rule. Effectively if no other rule taxes that rule comes in and imposes that tax. If the U.S. doesn't do anything, subsidiaries could be taxing the U.S. As I said earlier, the U.S. profits through that under taxed profit rule, as well as other subsidiaries of the U.S. that the U.S. could tax. There's certainly revenue opportunities that are on the table that seemingly will go to other countries if we don't act. It would also go a long way in simplifying the US's approach to compliance. Because they'll be less of a need to orchestrate the two systems if we adopted one of them and made it part of our law. I think it would be easier to coordinate the two. Just overall for those reasons I mentioned earlier it would make it much simpler for U.S. multinationals in the long run. Lauren Pfingstag: Thank you for taking again what is a difficult subject and making it digestible. That is a skill and we appreciate it. April Walker: Yes, I echo those thoughts, Lauren and I'm also incredibly grateful for you joining because you bring a different perspective, Lauren, to this conversation and very fascinating. I was listening on the edge of my seat hopefully everyone else was. And I'm appreciative to Reema. Reema is very well-versed in international tax so I'm grateful for her to be able to ask questions that I couldn't pull off. I'm very appreciative to you Reema. Cory, I'll give you the opportunity to just as we're wrapping up final thoughts on this very heavy weighty topic? Cory Perry: Just the closing note that I would leave is, if you think you're subject to these rules or you think you have clients that might be subject to these rules don't wait. Engage with your advisors or with your clients now. Review structures and start planning for pillar 2. The sooner that companies and accountants act, the better prepared that the taxpayer will be for the changes that are ahead. There's things that can be done now that will significantly reduce reporting in the initial years, simplify the overall process that may not necessarily be available if you wait. It's coming, it's right around the corner and that should start thinking about it now. April Walker: Perfect. I would be remiss if I didn't say [you can find] in our show notes a landing page on the AICPA's website where you can find resources and we're continuing to work on those resources. I will put a link to the show notes in there. Just in final closing, a little bit of a lighter topic. The name of this podcast is Tax Section Odyssey so I'd like to think about us taking a journey together, toward a better profession and in doing so I'd like to get a glimpse of my guest other journeys outside of tax. Cory, tell me a page from your travel journal or a memorable trip or something you'd have on the horizon? Cory Perry: Sure. I regularly take trips to Taiwan, that's one of my favorite countries to go to. That's where my wife's originally from. We met in college and have been married for many years now, but I have two young boys who love to travel with me, although it's sometimes challenging to travel with them, but I still enjoy it very much. We go to Taiwan usually every year, every other year to visit her family, travel around Taiwan and see Taipei. That is a reoccurring and memorable trip journey. April Walker: Wonderful. As I'm doing these I like to add to my travel list because I love to travel. Thanks again, so much I'm so grateful for Cory, Lauren, and Reema. Again, this is April Walker from the AICPA Tax Section. This community is your go-to source for technical guidance and resources designed especially for CPA tax practitioners like you in mind. This is a podcast from AICPA and CIMA together as the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. I encourage you to follow us so you don't miss an episode. If you already follow us, thank you so much and I encourage you to share with your like-minded friends. You can also find us at the aicpa-cima.com/tax, where you can find other Odyssey episodes as well as get access to the resources mentioned during this episode. Thank you again so much and thank you for listening. Keep your finger on the pulse of the dynamic and evolving tax landscape with insights from tax thought leaders in the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section Odyssey podcast includes a digest of tax developments, trending issues and practice management tips that you need to be aware of to elevate your professional development and your firm practices. This resource is part of the robust tax resource library available from the AICPA Tax Section. The Tax Section is your go-to home base for staying up to date on the latest tax developments and providing the edge you need for upskilling your professional development. If you’re not already a member, consider joining this prestigious community of your tax peers. You’ll get free CPE, access to rich technical content such as our Annual Tax Compliance Kit, a weekly member newsletter and a digital subscription to The Tax Adviser.

In this joint episode, Neil Amato, host of the Journal of Accountancy podcast and Melanie Lauridsen, VP of AICPA Tax Policy and Advocacy discuss two recent Supreme Court decisions.   The Supreme Court ruling in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo overturned a 40-year-old precedent of deference referred to as the Chevron doctrine, affecting future rulemaking by eliminating the need for judges to defer to agency interpretations of ambiguous statutes. In Corner Post, Inc. v. Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, the Supreme Court ruled to alter the statute of limitations for challenging regulations, starting the clock when a plaintiff is injured rather than when the regulation is enforced.   These decisions introduce significant uncertainty for the accounting profession, particularly regarding IRS regulations and long-standing rules and emphasize the need for CPAs to stay informed and adaptable as the implications of these rulings unfold.    AICPA Resources Melancon: Supreme Court decisions are ‘big deal’ for tax pros, The Tax Adviser, Aug. 1, 2024 Supreme Court overrules 40-year-old Chevron doctrine, The Tax Adviser, June 28, 2024 Supreme Court decision on Chevron doctrine will affect tax pros, Journal of Accountancy, June 24, 2024 For a full transcript of the episode, see  Tax Section Odyssey on the AICPA & CIMA website.