Agency Bytes Ep 107 – Blair Enns, Win Without Pitching – The Fourth Conversation
In episode 107 of Agency Bytes, I sit down with Blair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto and The Four Conversations. If you’ve heard Blair on other shows—or are one of the many who’ve followed his work for years—you might think you’ve heard it all. Not this time. In this conversation, we go beyond the usual talking points and uncover insights he’s never shared before.
Blair opens up about the real mindset shifts creative professionals need to make if they want to stop selling like vendors and start showing up as experts. We break down the Four Conversations model, what most agency owners still get wrong about pricing, and how to rewrite the dynamics of the sales process to work in your favor.
We also explore why repetition beats inspiration, how to protect your power in client engagements, and what Blair believes is the single biggest opportunity for agencies right now—even in a time of AI disruption and economic uncertainty. If you want to charge more, pitch less, and finally own your value—this episode brings the fire.
Key Bytes
• Blair Enns emphasizes the importance of lifestyle choices in career decisions.
• The Win Without Pitching Manifesto serves as a foundational text for creative professionals.
• Sales should be viewed as a series of conversations rather than a pitch.
• Pricing is a critical area for agencies to improve profitability.
• Repetition in learning is essential for mastery of sales techniques.
• Creative professionals often struggle with the mindset of being a salesperson.
• The Four Conversations provides a framework for navigating sales effectively.
• Surviving economic uncertainty is crucial for agency success.
• Agencies should focus on their unique expertise to stand out in the market.
• Building strong client relationships is key to successful sales.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Blair Enns and His Journey
02:59 The Catalyst for Change: Lifestyle Choices
06:00 The Birth of Win Without Pitching
09:06 Understanding the Win Without Pitching Manifesto
12:12 The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise
17:54 Lessons Learned from Coaching Agencies
20:50 The Importance of Repetition in Learning
25:56 Navigating Sales Conversations Effectively
31:59 Mindset Shifts for Creative Professionals
35:05 Opportunities and Challenges Ahead for Agencies
Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching and the author of three books on selling and pricing for expert advisors and practitioners, including the brand new The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise.
A former advertising professional and consultant, Blair launched Win Without Pitching in 2002 to help creative professionals learn to win more business at higher prices without giving their services away for free in a pitch. His selling philosophy and pricing strategies resonated beyond the advertising and design professions to the point where today Win Without Pitching serves expert advisors and practitioners around the world in over a dozen professions, including finance, marketing, consulting, engineering and healthcare.
Blair also co-hosts, along with David C. Baker, the popular podcast 2Bobs: Conversations on the Art of Creative Entrepreneurship.
Contact Blair on winwithoutpitching.com.