Why Pronatalists Should Support the D.I.N.K. Lifestyle

We explain why the childfree/DINK (dual income, no kids) lifestyle is not something the pronatalist community should oppose. If people do not wish to have children, they likely would make poor parents and passing on those genes is not productive. We also highlight how the animosity towards DINKs often stems from jealousy, not concern for civilization. Ultimately, voluntary sterilization of those not fit to parent strengthens society long-term.

[00:00:00] We're Dinks. We can go to Florida on a whim. We're Dinks. We're already planning our European vacation next year. Dinks. We get a full eight hours of sleep and sometimes more.

We're Dinks. We get desserts and appetizers at restaurants. We're Dinks

Simone Collins: the response that pronatalist communities or even just like broadly conservative people have to them is just totally wrong.

These are people who really, really, really, really should not be having kids.

Malcolm Collins: We mean this both from a genetic reason.

Like, as we've talked about, like a dink is obviously more likely to be narcissistic, less likely to want to get back to society, et cetera. But in addition to that, they're not going to be good parents.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: I just hit record. So we're set. Let's make sure you're looking gorgeous. I love it when you have a little flippy do on your forehead of hair. It's

Malcolm Collins: just really I wanted to see. So we will, I love my wife and I am excited to be here with you today. Because we are going to talk about a subject. that I didn't really know about. Apparently there was some meme around this because a bunch of [00:01:00] people got mad at people on the internet about this, because people on the internet love to get mad and judge other people.

But it is the phenomenon of dinks. And it's a dual income, no kids. No kids. So these are couples, no kids. And I think a lot of people they look at us, you know, the ISTs and they're like, oh, you're fighting the dinks. Right? And it's like, not really . And we'll, we'll get to this actually. You said at the prenatal list conference, somebody came up, right?

Mm-Hmm. . And they were like, well you guys as ISTs, you know, what are your views on and how are you going to fight the use of condoms? You know, like in other contraceptive drivers,

Simone Collins: right. . And they also ask you this, like on the spot in front of a large audience of people.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I said something along the lines of, look, I do not want kids being born because they were born accidentally.

That is not

Simone Collins: a victory. Seriously, or to people who don't want them. Come on guys.

Malcolm Collins: How is that a good thing that we are basically [00:02:00] forcing you know, people who don't want kids to have children with people who they did not intend to have children with? Talk about cruelty.

Simone Collins: What to the

Malcolm Collins: kids, you know, she's just like, come on.

Yeah. And this is, this is very much around dinks, you know, if somebody doesn't want kids, like that is not our job. We

Simone Collins: also like, we don't want them to have kids. Our job is to protect. They're right to not have kids. Cause if we care about

Malcolm Collins: kids from them, exactly, exactly, let's, let's talk about dinks more broadly.

So, we'll do the little video of the dinks here. So you can see

We're Dinks. We go to Trader Joe's and workout classes on the weekends. We're Dinks. We get into snobby hobbies like skiing and golfing. We're Dinks. We can go to Florida on a whim. We're Dinks. We're already planning our European vacation next year. Dinks. We get a full eight hours of sleep and sometimes more.

We're Dinks. We get desserts and appetizers at restaurants. We're Dinks. We can play with other kids and give them back. We're Dinks. We still do it three times a week. We're Dinks. We spend our discretionary [00:03:00] income. We're dinks. We max out our 401ks, Roth IRAs, and HSAs. We're dinks. We don't use our kids or dog as an excuse to leave a party.

We just leave.

Malcolm Collins: they do come off as a little, well, I mean, well, for

Simone Collins: context, like dinks did start trending a lot recently because a lot of dinks are making Tik TOK videos specifically about it. And this one couple doing this sort of back and forth of dink lifestyle amenities went viral.

Which led to a

Malcolm Collins: lot of discussion. Our friend of the show, Edward Dutton, did a counter dink video that I'll Which is hilarious. Found randomly. It just came up and he's like, oh, his voice sounds familiar.

We're dinks. We've been sucked into a death cult. We're dinks. We're putting our immediate hedonistic desires above our long term genetic interests. We're dinks. We're part of a selection event, and we've been selected out. We're dinks. We're coping with the fact that we're going to be failures as organisms.

We're dinks. When we're older, we're going to look back on our lives with a profound sense of regret. We're dinks. We're going to die cold, alone, and with no one in the world who loves [00:04:00] us.

Malcolm Collins: But no, no, no, it makes perfect sense, right? So, the, these individuals, like when you see what they're talking about, when you see why they're excited to not have kids you're going to repeatedly see a few through lines.

It's, it's primarily because it allows them to engage with more consumerism. That's a really big thing. Like they're like, or

Simone Collins: savings. Like in, in, in the Dink video, they're like, we max out our Roth IRA, 401k and HSA. Well, we do too, by the way. Parents are more likely to need to do that because then you just save the money.

But yeah, whatever.

Malcolm Collins: No, not just, they're, they're, they're much more excited in their consumerist behavior. They are. We can buy an 8 latte that we can go on random trips so that we can

Simone Collins: appetizers and desserts. That we do too.

Malcolm Collins: Who does that? Who goes to a restaurant and orders three courses? That's insane.

Simone Collins: Well, we order appetizers 'cause we just eat appetizers. , like

Malcolm Collins: shared appetizers. Yeah. We order [00:05:00] appetizers to save money and you know, save, save on calories, . Well, so, so there's that. And then there's a lot of like, well we get to have sex more often or Yeah, we still have

Simone Collins: sex three times a week.

So many married couples we know have not sex three times a week. Every single night. If you care about that, kids aren't going to stop you from doing it.

Malcolm Collins: . Hold on, Simone. I'm not saying, and I do not think it is helpful for us to say, that married couples can have everything a dink can have. True. While, you know, you can look at individual things you're seeing and saying, that's not true of all married couples.

I think that that is, it is, it's disingenuous to make the claim that married couples and dinks have access to the same amount of resources. And that is really, really important is that they actually do have access to more resources. What is more interesting to me and I think what causes the backlash to them is why do they want these additional resources?

What [00:06:00] are they trading? The continuation of our species and their culture and the improvement, like the intergenerational improvement of humanity. This great game that every single one of their ancestors participated in and sacrificed for what they're pointing out when they talk about all the things that they can have because they're not parents is they're pointing out what a sacrifice apparent is and what is sacrifice every individual.

Who came before them so that they had the privilege to opt out of this system. The sacrifices is that huge, great chain of individuals had to undergo for them to have the privilege to basically cash out. Now it is as selfish as the boomers who go out there and just take out tons of debt in the name of future generation.

They are cheating the system because they don't have to deal with the consequences personally. Now, what is. Also true is the genetic precursors to their [00:07:00] psychological proclivities that lead to this sort of narcissistic and selfish behavior are going to be bred out of the population. So that's a, that's one, a good thing, right?

You know, so that's removing and the cultural groups that did a bad job of motivating them to. Yeah. You know, intergenerationally stay in this system are also going to be bred out of the population. And, and even if those groups are aggressively attempting to convert people intergenerationally, the groups are converting from are going to get better at resisting them.

We're just not going to see that anymore. You know, there's one study I saw recently that said something like 55 percent of Gen Z plans to not have kids, 55%. And for a huge portion of them it's environmental concerns. So, they have been so brainwashed by this environmental apocalypticism, because every generation, every 20 years, there's an apocalyptic cult.

You know, their kids are gonna not have kids, you know, if they had kids, because of AI, right? You know, you see this in the EA movement, which has just become this crazy, aggressive, luddite community. The moment Moment. You know, I always go back to the Douglas Adams quote, [00:08:00] Douglas Adams quote of everything invented after you were 30 is like an abomination.

It must be destroyed. The moment the leaders of the movement turned 30, all of a sudden all new technological innovations are heresy and must be destroyed in a threat in the future of our species. And, and these young people really believe this, this sort of nonsensical panic who sometimes, you know, come into the movement now because they don't know that, you know, just.

Old people who time has left behind yelling at the sky.

. You wouldn't understand, Dad. You're not with it. I used to be with it. But then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it. And what's it seems weird and scary to me. It'll happen to you.

Malcolm Collins: But where are they going with this? Yeah. So, so these concerns, this sort of susceptibility to this form of apocalypticism, like environmentalist apocalypticism is hopefully going to be brought out of our species. Now this will lead to more environmental catastrophes in the future, but I mean, humans have had a great, great job and done a great job at [00:09:00] creating environmental catastrophes over and over and over again.

You know, you look at like when the environmental protection. To went into place. It went into place because lakes used

to regularly catch fire in some areas. ,

Simone Collins: oh boy,

Malcolm Collins: I forgot about that. Or the London smog. Like people,

apparently it's worse than like Bangkok today. You could barely, like if you walked into London, people would just die hall all around you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You met you. If you go historically right, people are like, yeah, but. That's just like industrialization problems. If we go back to like Native Americans, like working off the land, I'm like, oh, where did all the mega fauna in America go? Where did the giant sloths go? No! When they came to this country, they systemically exterminated hundreds of species just completely changed the ecological landscape caused huge ecological disasters.

Because humans always do this. It's what we do. Okay? Yeah. And

Simone Collins: Well, it's very natural. That's the problem,

Malcolm Collins: I guess. We had reached this one iteration of our species that thought it might go in the opposite direction. But the [00:10:00] moment you know, that then also became a sterilizing memetic context, like it, you know They then disappear.

So you have these dinks and people are like, well, do you hold animosity to them? And it's like, no, I mean, really I think I hold a level of pity for them. Because a lot of these people, you know, when I look at these women who are spending, you know, 300 K or whatever on trying to get pregnant and they're like 45 they had this mindset when they were younger because they didn't realize or they didn't fully accept yet that they're.

What, what gives them the happiness that they were getting from things like this commercial extravagance, these trips was going to change as they got older. And they just, it had probably already changed by the time they filmed these videos. They just built their self identity because, you know, there's a lot of research on identity creation, which typically happens between like 18 and 24.

And during that period of your life, you're in this mindset of like kids. Ick because, you know, you are supposed to be going out there and finding a mate should be that way. Yeah,

Simone Collins: it's fine.

Malcolm Collins: So it makes, it makes perfect sense that you would [00:11:00] have that mindset at that age, but that's not like who you are.

But they mistakenly believe this because it's reinforced by society around them. So then they end up in these desperate states, you know, reaching out. You know, our foundation being like, Hey, can you fund me to get IVF? And we're like, no, that's not what

Simone Collins: the foundation. That is. Yeah. That is, I, we should point out that that is something that has happened to us.

That like many people who probably formerly identified as child free or dink have contacted us and basically said, like, I can no longer afford IVF. Can you, you know, can you give me a grant? And we can't and no one else will. So this is something people should keep in mind. Like even if you.

Malcolm Collins: But you made your own bet is, is really at the end of the day.

And people don't realize that they have thrown away their happiness.

Simone Collins: No organization is going to, is going to invest in, in a person's fertility. If they're in their forties and having trouble having a kid because they, they're the same dollars that they could spend on that. Older person could help like, you know, [00:12:00] 10, 20, 20 year olds have kids.

Yeah. So like, they're just not going to do it. You're not going to get help. So I guess like if, if I'm going to give one piece of advice to dinks of like, here's how to really have absolutely zero regrets, like freeze eggs, sperm and or embryos

Malcolm Collins: embryos, everything is a bit of a scam. It doesn't like, they do not work as well as people think they

Simone Collins: do.

But I mean, some, some dinks are some single. So like for the dink couple that went viral. I would encourage them to freeze embryos, obviously because they were a couple and they, they had other people, but like, I think many women and men don't have a partner and therefore like, you have to do what you can with what you have.

So yeah, I get what you're saying, Malcolm, but like at the same time, like it's better than nothing. And that way, like. And who knows, maybe you'll have like a sister or a brother or a cousin who really like, can't, you know, can't use their own material and they'd really appreciate you as a donor. So like, this isn't

Malcolm Collins: for nothing.

And people who are horrified by this, you see our video on who kills more kids, Catholics or us, you like it, you're like, no, creating an embryo via IVF, it's [00:13:00] creating a kid and so you're murdering them if they don't end up being used. This is not what early Catholic theologians thought, this is not what most early Christian theologians thought, you know, you'd look like Augustus of Himbo.

Or Thomas Aquinas, you know, they thought that the soul entered the developing embryo 30 days after it began developing. This is a fairly modern belief that is not really biblically backed. Then we go into this with lots of quotes and stuff like that. So just, just be aware that we're not out there advocating the rampant killing of kids.

We're just trying to ensure that the kids who are meant to come into the world can, and we don't end up with these heartbreaking situations.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And we see, we do see dinks change their mind, but I think my larger sense of dinks is like, The, the response that pronatalist communities or even just like broadly conservative people have to them is just totally wrong.

These are people who really, really, really, really should not be having kids. They don't want them. And also like I've seen, I I've watched a lot of child free content. I've gone through a lot of child free. Reddit threads. And I've gone through like posts of parents who regret becoming [00:14:00] parents and that's talk about heartbreaking.

Like I see a dink couple or see a child free person. I don't feel sad for them at all. Like they seem pretty happy with their lifestyle. It could, you know, not, not for us. Right. But like, fine. But what makes me really sad is like videos, Tik TOKs posts by parents who are like. Don't do it. You know, I, if I could go back in time, I'm like, Oh man, like how horrible is that?

Especially for the kids.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of these people are in sort of dink cultural groups and stuff like that. And they have this enforced on them. And this is why we really do not advocate to these communities. And I should point when we say like, dinks shouldn't have kids, you know, we don't, we, we, we mean this both from a genetic reason.

Like, as we've talked about, like a dink is obviously more likely to be narcissistic, less likely to want to get back to society, et cetera. But in addition to that, I think that, that they're not going to be good parents. And, and even when it's heartbreaking, when somebody reaches out to us and they're like, I didn't start trying to have kids until X age [00:15:00] because of whatever it's like, well.

So nobody chose to be with you who you were willing to accept. You know, like, that's a sign, okay, that you waited this long. That you didn't question what you were being told by society. All of these things are unfortunately, like, we live in a world where unfortunately not everyone is really happy.

Equally fit to be a parent. And the, the selfishness that is shown by these individuals means that they're much more likely to fall into this narcissistic parent category. Which is really, really something that I would promote avoiding. One of the tweets that was done and like counter to the dinkness, I think it was actually Elon's tweet to this is he goes, it's really selfish to not have kids because what you're saying is somebody else's kids have to care for you in your old age.

And I thought that that was a I mean, I don't think that's going to compel dinks, but it is also a true statement. You know, when these people are. You know, promoting immigration and stuff like that. What they're essentially saying is [00:16:00] we didn't take the time or make the effort to raise the next generation ourself.

And therefore you know, when I'm old and I'm living off of the, the dole off of society, off of social security or whatever I need to import people from other countries to support me.

Simone Collins: But I also, like, I don't know, I don't know. I, I don't agree with that particular stance of Elon Musk. I don't like, I think a lot of these people are going to die deaths of despair, or they're just not going to get very good services, or they're not going to get human help because the human help isn't available.

And they're going to have to deal with that. And that's, that's just kind of on them or they'll be fine. And, you know, it's a market based thing and they will have saved the money necessary to pay a very pretty penny. For whoever is very happy to receive that money to give them services. I don't like that argument to me doesn't do anything like either.

They're going to, you know, die alone on a floor, not being taken care of because they haven't [00:17:00] planned accordingly. Or they're going to kill themselves, which I think a lot of, I think euthanasia is going to see, especially in a post demographic collapse world, people are going to opt into humanely killing themselves when they become too old to either pay for their lifestyles or they're unhealthy.

You know, or they're just going to be able to pay for someone, like whatever. And that's fine. Like I'm okay with employment.

Malcolm Collins: So if they, if they are paying for people, but a lot of these people don't really, are not really planning to pay for it, they're going to die alone

Simone Collins: on the floor

Malcolm Collins: or they're going to be a major voting block because people aren't having as many kids and elderly people vote more than young people and they end up taking the money from the younger generations to support their indulgent lifestyles, which is something that we're already seeing the older generation too.

That's where this unsustainable debt load and everything like that is coming from, and they will do that, and they will keep doing that, and they will do it more in the future, until the system breaks. That sounds pretty evil. Because they don't care. They don't care about future [00:18:00] generations, and they don't care about people younger than them.

They only care, when you see the videos, they're not like, I'm a dink so I can give back to society. It's, I'm a dink so I can indulge in personal hedonism as much as possible. And we will have one, you know, the next generation is likely going to suffer to some extent because of these individuals. However that suffering will to some extent be ameliorated with the knowledge that at least these individuals have removed themselves from our cultural landscape and our genetic landscape.

And this is something that I think people really don't. Expect much, you know, running the prenatalist movement, people will come to us and they'll say, how do you convince this environmentalist who doesn't want to have kids? How do you convince this person who has no kids that they think they can't afford them or something?

And it's like, well, except, you know, the less money you have, the more kids you have. So clearly people with less money than them are able to afford kids. Within all of these instances, we're just like, don't have kids. No argument for them. And they don't get it, because they're not used to that. Every movement they've dealt with before says, [00:19:00] everyone, you must do what we're telling you to do.

When we come to them, and they come to us, and they're like, well, what do you think of me doing this? And we're just like, well, we don't care about you. You don't matter to us. You're not part of the solution. You're, you're not, and you have no capacity to be part of the solution. The mere fact that you would ask me to convince you shows you have no capacity to be part of the solution.

Yeah. And, and, and then there's the alternate group, which does matter for us to reach out to these are young people who are being influenced or brainwashed and just need to know that this is an option for them, that this is a problem and that these, you know, environmental nutjobs, we've done a video on this are mostly lying to them.

These AI nutjobs have done a video on this are mostly lying to them. These things are not the threats that they're being told if they had studied American history. It's something outside of our horrified failing public school system. . They likely don't know. What would be blindingly obvious to anyone who has actually studied American history is that America has a large apocalyptic movement that spreads. particularly [00:20:00] was in you know, upper class communities, urban communities, stuff like that, about every 20 years 25 years about and, and this is just something that America has had forever.

And no, they are not the first generation to think the world's about to end. And it doesn't happen, it, it doesn't happen, I'm sorry, like, and, and if you

Simone Collins: It's the first time for everything, I'm sure, you know,

Malcolm Collins: dream big. But I would look as a barometer for is the world actually about to end, not what people from a culture that does this every 25 years, what Yeah, they're probably not the most But instead look at countries and cultures that are intelligent and developed, but that Don't have this panic scenario every 25 years, they are panicking about these things, especially

Simone Collins: if they have a record for calling other shots.

So,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, yeah. And if they don't have these same problems, then it's probably not the same issue that these people think it is. And that they're really just looking for justification for decisions. They were already inclined to make or wanted to make while also making them themselves feel, you know, morally [00:21:00] important.

Like they're at an important point in history because everybody wants to feel that way. I, I really get that. Right. And I do think that we are at an important point in history, but not in a nothing we do matters way, but the, you know, see our dark ages of video, everything we do in history right now has an extra layer of importance to it because we are in one of the last ages of prosperity.

One of the last ages where you could really indulge in dinkism. It's, it's very much, you know, you look at right before the collapse of the Islamic Empire, right before the collapse of the Roman Empire and if you saw people like marching or look like we don't have kids, look at how wealthy, look at all the, you know, slaves we've been able to buy to carry us on Pelican, you know, it is.

And then you have the other guy who's like, Oh gosh, okay, the system's about to collapse. Okay. I need to have a lot of kids. I know that everyone's really concerned that like the upper classes have stopped having kids and I need to cause Caesar was concerned about this. You know, he, there's famous laws that he was passing because he noticed that nobody was having kids anymore.

And I need to plan out like geographically where they're going to live because Rome is going to become more destabilized in these areas, et cetera, like this [00:22:00] requires a lot of work and it puts a lot of responsibility on an individual and it is both a gift and a curse that we are the generation that gets to engage as that responsibility.

But because of that, this is no longer a situation of just convince everyone. To have more kids. It's now a situation of empower the people who are going to build the next civilization to do a better job doing that instead of you know, convert these, you know, pretty pathetic individuals.

Simone Collins: But here's something that I think is more interesting and under discussed on this issue, which is the amount of butthurt you do get from pronatalist people about dinks and child free couples.

And I think what's really telling about the butthurt that you get from them and the fact that they react so viscerally and are so judgmental really implies, it could imply, a tremendous lack of security in their decision and a certain amount of resentment that they do not share that same amount [00:23:00] of affluence and freedom.

And, and I think a lot of that may be because

Malcolm Collins: we do. This is what's really interesting, Sinan. When I look at the pushback against the dink movement, it does not come from like pronatalist parents. I, I see it occasionally there, but it's not predominantly from that group. The predominant group, because I was going through videos today on YouTube complaining about dinks.

It's actually mostly from younger moderates who one day plan to have kids. Oh,

Simone Collins: interesting. So then I guess that would explain it more because then they're on the fence and they still feel more heavily the pressures of wanting all the nice stuff,

Malcolm Collins: right? Yeah. Yeah. And they might be closer to these communities or they haven't fully achieved, you know, the having kids yet and everything like that.

I think that when people are on like the civilizational train, I'd say they don't really care about the people who are off the civilizational train. It's more like, let's focus on everyone else who's on the civilizational train. And, and, and the dinks are just not participating in the civilizational [00:24:00] chain and the fight that they're having is with other people who aren't on it yet.

Simone Collins: I still, I still think that there are, I mean, in the commentary I've seen, there are some families that have a lot of kids that do, that do complain occasionally and bemoan like the. The hedonic sacrifices they have to make with kids. And I think that's just a product of living in a society that celebrates the lifestyle of a like late teen, early twenties, male

Malcolm Collins: or female.

And I don't feel that way even a little.

Simone Collins: No, no, I don't either. I just think, I think this is why you're going to see why we see some of that butthurt. Even sometimes from prenatalist people, although like I would say like the Jolly Heretic's reaction to, to this was not even that it was just like really funny because he's hilarious.

But

Malcolm Collins: I hear what you're saying. Yeah. But I think this is important for the prenatalist movement to remember, like if you're, if you consider yourself part of the movement. And you're out there advocating for it. You, when somebody comes to you and they go, Well, how are you going to convince me to have kids?

How do you convince, you know, the [00:25:00] 20 something environmentalist who doesn't want to have kids? We don't. That's the point. We do not. These people are not a part of the problem. In that they're, they're a part of the solution, to be honest. We, if there is a group out there that opposes you and is sterilizing themselves, do not, you know, f**k up your opponent when they are in the process of a great mistake.

You know, this is something that around the world, the What great blessing it is to have your opponents primarily be a group that is sterilizing themselves. That is, that is not a mistake that you want to get in the middle of. Nor do you want to take too much relish in the fact that they are going to lead to more suffering within their own population in the long run.

So like we can point out within our communities wow, these people are really probably going to end up trying to get pregnant later. They're going to be really sad about this decision. They are going to suffer emotional and psychological consequences for this decision. [00:26:00] But we do not publish that, you know, when we're doing like.

stuff like that. We don't push those positions. We do not say, Oh, they're going to regret this because that's not the message we want. Like we are okay with the fact that they end up regretting this. We just say, do what you want. We don't care. Because the kids that are not burdened with having to live with these parents are, are, are fortunately, hopefully going to be born into families like ours or, or like other high fertility families that really are having kids.

Because they want to make the world a better place intergenerationally and because they want to participate in this intergenerational cycle and not as an alternative to going on a trip to Florida every year in terms of the amount of happiness or status it gets.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Do you have any other thoughts on your dinky dinks?

Simone Collins: I, one thing I'm just thinking about is before we had kids and we lived [00:27:00] as a dink couple, having these thoughts of like, well, I better enjoy. I'm going to be sleeping through the night because I'm never going to do it again and I do somewhat, as much as I know, it's not really productive to have a conversation about like, Oh, actually being a parent isn't so bad, but it actually really isn't though.

Like, I just,

Malcolm Collins: I just want to say that. I'll be honest, who I feel more bad for than dinks is, I don't know what to call it, two and below parents.

Simone Collins: Oh, that is, that is, oh, that's really interesting. The hardest form of parent is having one kid. So hard.

Malcolm Collins: I think two kids might be almost as hard. But they're, they're both really hard.

At least

Simone Collins: with two kids, they like, you know, keep each other occupied. A little

Malcolm Collins: bit. Yeah. Yeah. Like a one parent family is far, one, they're not really on the civilizational train. So they're not getting the benefits of having kids. And two, the effort required to raise one kid, the sacrifices [00:28:00] you make to raise one kid.

For sure. Yeah. Or so much higher than the sacrifices you make when you're having seven or eight kids or something like that, you know? Oh, it's the worst.

Simone Collins: And everything's a big deal. Also, like you, you kind of feel morally obligated to like, make everything a big deal because you can't

Malcolm Collins: sleeping through the night thing that you were talking about.

And I remember when we had our first kid, like that was genuinely at the beginning, like an issue. Like I was like, Oh, you know, so much work. It was only so much work because we had decided to make it a lot of work. Because that's

Simone Collins: the thing. Yeah. Like when you're like, Oh, I'm just going to sit, you know, sit up and stare at my kid.

You know, all night. And that's, so that's, and that's not to say like literally every night. And I've been sleeping incredibly well, like solid eight hours, really good sleep. I have never slept so well, I think in my life up until like this past month. I don't know what's going on. It's just been amazing. Yeah, he used to always complain

Malcolm Collins: about sleeping.

I'm glad you're happy. But

Simone Collins: it's maybe it's all the sex dreams about you. I don't know what it is. It's that I'm extra hot for you. May it's that you've been extra hot. So like, maybe I sleep well because my female mind [00:29:00] is like husband's in the house. Everything's perfect. He's better than ever. So now you

Malcolm Collins: can kind of stay, stay good enough for you.

But

Simone Collins: like, I, I sleep with our, like I'm in the master bedroom. Now the crib is right here. The, the, the, the bed that I sleep in is right there. And I am always listening, like I will always have an infant in this room and I'm always listening for them breathing. I'm always paranoid and like terrified that they're going to stop breathing.

I'm always like, you know, I'll wake up and then I'll listen for them. So like I am constantly like monitoring, I am, I am worrying, but also like I'm sleeping really well and, and I'm fine and they're fine and nobody's fussing and like, it's, it's okay. I can also hear both of our kids. Immediately below me.

Cause their bunk bed is like immediately below the master bed. And I can hear Octavian talking to himself and like thumping the wall with his toys and stuff. And that's good and it's, it's fine. But like, it also just sort of becomes like part of your background mental processing. And I, I dunno, I just, I think it's [00:30:00] unfair because like people framed being a parent.

Is, is way worse than it actually was. You'll never get in a full night of sleep again. But

Malcolm Collins: it was accurate for being a parent of one child. Yeah. Yeah. All of the negative stuff you hear about being a parent is totally true. If you are a parent of one to two children, it is totally not true. Once you get well above two children.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So being a deoc is the worst, a dual income one, one kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Complete. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it's interesting if you, like after your first kid, if you're framing having more kids, like you just assume you're going to have a bunch of kids, the way you build the routines around your kids, the way you build your routines around pregnancy are really different and just make the whole process a lot easier.

Yeah. Also, and this is a problem that Simone and I constantly have. Is you have this constant fear that you're not going to be able to have all the kids that you want and your house always feels empty, you know, right now we've got three kids. You're pregnant [00:31:00] with number four. And every time I look at a room, I'm like, why is no one here?

Like, where is everyone? You know, I, I, I need the stampede. I need you know, it feels, it feels very much like a ghost house, which I think is really surprising to people when they normalize to two kids. When you normalize your brain to the idea, I'll have like seven to 13 kids which, you know, realistically, we'll probably only get to seven, even, even if we do everything right.

You know, we can try, we can try. And you look at things, you're like, well. You know, I, I, I, I just it, it feels so empty. It feels so, so, so empty and it feels so like we're doing so little, but we also end up making decisions like finding ways to take them out of daycare and stuff like that, that actually are financially beneficial to us even now, but they're decisions we probably wouldn't have been forced to find solutions to had we not planned on having so many more kids.

We would have been like, Oh, we can deal with the financial cost of, or the [00:32:00] temporal cost of doing this or that.

Simone Collins: That's true. Yeah. You're, you're allowed, you're, you're allowed and able to and encouraged to make very unsustainable financial choices. So like, yeah, I guess it is true. Being a parent is way, way, way, way worse than being a dual income, no kids, couple or person when you.

Have just one, maybe two kids, extra stressful. And then after that it can get, especially after four, that's when economies of scale like kick in. You know, when you actually look at literally unit economics,

Malcolm Collins: that's when it really, she's actually right. It really doesn't begin to help until after four.

That's when you get to like very marginal. It's like a thousand dollars extra to raise a kid once you have above four kids. Exactly. Yeah. It's just

Simone Collins: not much. But anyway to all the dinks out there, we respect your choice. Have fun. We, Yeah, you have our blessing and you don't need it, but

Malcolm Collins: yeah, we don't need to have a great life.

And I really hope that it does work out for you because I appreciate the service that you are playing to our species [00:33:00] by removing yourself from the cultural and genetic pool. God. Speaking of genetic pools I want to start doing these ads at the end of videos because I want to support my brother and he has created a very cool product.

We really like our brother, smart guy, you know, talked about him in other episodes. It's called bun box, like a bunny box.

One word box. You can find it on Chrome store. It's a Chrome right now. And what it does is. If you click a little button within your gmail account sort of next to like, you know, the delete message button and stuff like that.

It actually will just summarize the message up top and you can click a button to automatically create an AI response to that message. And you can do this within messages too. You read a message, you get one of the six, you know, suggested AI responses, or you can create a prompt and it will create a response for you.

And it works spectacularly well from what I've seen so far. And if you're worried about security or anything like that, I mean, he's my brother. Like I, I don't know, like if you trust, I trust him fully. Like I, this is the thing, like if it [00:34:00] was anyone else out there creating like an AI product like this I'd be worried about giving them access to my inbox as an AI.

But this is like alternate timeline, Malcolm. I'm I, yeah, just think what you will of that, you know,

Simone Collins: Alternate timeline, Malcolm, who worries about everything. Like we were once in a building with him and he was like. How sure are you of the structural integrity of this building?

Like he was literally worried that the building was going to collapse on top of us. He thinks about everything. So yeah, no, he's being extremely thoughtful about security and everything else. I will add just in terms of like cool features of this. I personally don't use it to compose emails because I don't like AI style of writing.

Even like good AI style. This is good AI style. He is. very good prompt injections, whatever it is he's using to make sure that the emails that he generates are good. But I, I use it for emails that stress me out where I'm like, I just don't want to deal with this. And it's great. Cause it summarizes things.

What's even better is, is we run a business [00:35:00] that works with a lot of vendors and clients throughout Latin America and in Spain. I'm fluent in Spanish. I can deal with it. But when something is both stressful and in another language, sometimes I'm just like, I don't want to, I'm not ready for this.

And this will give me nice bulleted summaries in English of everything that happens in the entire email thread. It will even remind you if it, if there's like a chain that you summarize, it will say like, so and so said this, and then you responded saying that. And then, you know, and it's. It's genuinely wonderful, really has reduced my stress palpably.

Malcolm Collins: Well, that's why he made it, you know, when we were talking, cause I actually was there when he had the idea for the product. We're talking on a plane. . He had just entered a major life transition after a success. And he's like, what do I do next with my career? And I had sent him an email recently and I was like, you know, did you, did you get this email?

I sent you and he goes, no, honestly, I find answering email really stressful. So I don't go through all my emails. I was like, well, what do you mean? He's like, I just, and I got it sort of, because I feel [00:36:00] the same way about some things like answering a phone message. I find those really stressful. Like if somebody could just.

Summarize and tell me, I feel the same thing with articles on us. Whenever we go viral or something like that, I always tell Simone, I was like, can you read the article and tell me if I should feel pain or somebody does a video on us? I'm like, can you watch the video and just summarize it for me? So I don't need to go through that myself.

And so this is how he feels with email. And he's like, yeah, it'd be really cool if somebody could just summarize and handle these emails for me. And I was like, well, there's your business idea right there. And he's like, Could I really do that? And so then he, he built it and I'm proud of him because it works well.

It's really

Simone Collins: good. And, and I, you know, I've looked at so many AI based solutions that really, really disappoint. Because I want, I want them to work. I need them to work. So anyway, very impressed. He's great, but he's your brother, of course.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, he's my brother.

As a side note, for anyone who does end up downloading the app, BunBox, on the Chrome store, after you install it from the Chrome store, you then have to click on, you know, your little, uh, [00:37:00] icon that shows all the, uh, widgets or apps you've downloaded, and then click on BunBox, then click Activate. Uh, if you don't click activate, it won't start working on your Gmail account.

And, and you need to reload the page after that on Gmail, but I figure that's self evident. Please, you know, he's putting this out there for free right now. If you do like it, and you do use it, leave a review. That's all we're really in this for right now. And, uh, tell your friends about it.

Malcolm Collins: And you know, he's working with us hopefully on the school now as well to integrate AI with the school, which I'm really excited about as it gets closer to launch.

And for our fans, for any of you who are interested in helping us with the school, we could really use help with that. That's another area we could use help. So, specifically going over the skill tree, like if you have a lot of understanding of one particular subject area and you're like, I would like to review the tree for that.

Let, let us know about that. And the final area where we can call out for fan help, just as long as we're doing this is I've been meaning to replace the little, like the logo that was created with an AI for this channel for a while. I paid to have like a portrait of us [00:38:00] drawn and it didn't look very good.

If anyone has anything that they think would be good logo for the channel, let us know because that's a, another thing we're looking to replace, but I love you, Simone, and I hope you have a spectacular day.

Simone Collins: I love you too, gorgeous.

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