The lure of Lucifer | Terry Eagleton, Susan Neiman, and Stephen de Wijze
Feb 25, 2025
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Join literary theorist Terry Eagleton, moral philosopher Susan Neiman, and political theorist Stephen de Wijze as they explore humanity's complex fascination with evil. They debate why violent characters captivate us and the glamorization of malevolence in media. Highlights include discussions on the moral ambiguities of historical figures, the impact of shows like 'The Sopranos' on societal behavior, and the urgent need for positive role models. The conversation challenges us to reassess our values in a world often drawn to darkness.
The podcast examines society's growing fascination with evil, suggesting it emerges from a cultural shift that renders virtue less appealing.
It highlights the dangers of sensationalizing evil characters in media, potentially undermining moral standards and obscuring everyday moral failures.
Deep dives
The Glamour of Evil
Evil is often perceived as exciting or glamorous when virtue becomes mundane and unappealing. Historically, with the rise of middle-class values in the 16th and 17th centuries, traits associated with goodness like thrift and temperance became less desirable, making the allure of evil more pronounced. Writers like Thomas Aquinas viewed virtue as vibrant and fulfilling, contrasting it with evil's inherent lack of depth and true vitality. This shift in societal perspectives contributes to the contemporary fascination with evil characters, often glamorized in media, suggesting that the nature of goodness itself has become uninspiring.
Banal Evil vs. Dramatic Evil
The podcast explores the distinction between dramatic evil—exemplified by notorious figures—and the more subtle, systemic 'banal evil' that often goes unnoticed. Figures like Hannah Arendt have emphasized that many harmful actions are not carried out with malicious intent, such as those contributing to climate change or various genocides. Such occurrences can stem from routine, bureaucratic actions devoid of explicit evil desires, obscuring the real sources of moral failure. This invites a debate about why society fixates on sensationalized portrayals of evil instead of addressing the underlying conditions that facilitate widespread harm.
Cultural Representations of Evil
The impact of evil characters in media raises questions about their influence on societal morals and behavior. Some argue that the portrayal of complex, morally ambiguous characters may undermine traditional ideals of virtue, leading to cultural cynicism. This phenomenon reflects a broader trend where sensational narratives can distract from genuine moral dialogues, making it challenging to establish strong role models. The conversation highlights that while characters like Walter White from 'Breaking Bad' may be compelling, they risk normalizing questionable ethics and diminishing the appreciation for heroic acts.
The Nature of Evil
Discussions surrounding the definition of evil suggest that it encompasses more than mere wrongdoing; it involves actions that fundamentally disrupt societal moral standards. Some philosophers argue that evil acts can be executed by non-evil individuals, pointing to the complexities of human behavior shaped by societal and environmental influences. There’s a recognition that evil, both systemic and personal, might be ingrained within humanity, presenting ongoing challenges in addressing it. Contrary to resigning ourselves to its presence, there’s an emphasis on actively resisting and critically analyzing evil to foster a more ethical society.
We may condemn tyrants and abhor serial killers, but we are obsessed with evil and violence. Our news and our entertainment focus on such material. Are we fascinated by evil, violent characters because they make life more exciting? Or because they express our true nature? Should we look to end this morbid obsession, or accept it as a feature of humanity?
Join Terry Eagleton, Susan Neiman, and Stephen de Wijze for a debate about why evil is so seductive to modern society. Terry Eagleton is is a literary theorist, critic, and public intellectual. Susan Neiman is a moral philosopher and cultural commentator. Stephen de Wijze is senior lecturer in political theory at Manchester, whose work concerns the interface between ethical constraints and political action.