Asia Business Podcast The Evolution of Chinese Investment in the United States
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Full show Transcript below Summary and Timestamps
Introduction:
In a recent podcast episode featuring John Ling, an expert in Chinese manufacturing investment in the US, valuable insights were shared regarding the challenges and opportunities faced by Chinese entrepreneurs venturing into the American market. With years of experience and a deep understanding of the dynamics between China and the US, Ling provided a comprehensive overview of the mindset of Chinese investors, the factors influencing their decisions, and the strategies for success in this competitive landscape.
Understanding Chinese Manufacturing Investment:
Ling emphasized that Chinese companies venturing into the US market are often among the best in their industry, driven by competitiveness honed in the challenging business environment of China. Despite facing initial setbacks such as trade wars and market disruptions, these companies demonstrate resilience and long-term vision, making them well-positioned for success.
Challenges and Strategies:
One of the key challenges highlighted by Ling is the cultural and operational differences between China and the US. Chinese entrepreneurs must navigate unfamiliar territory, including regulatory frameworks, labor markets, and business practices. However, by building strong relationships with local communities and government entities, as well as seeking partnerships with experienced US companies, they can overcome these challenges and thrive in the American market.
The Importance of Communication:
Effective communication emerges as a crucial factor in the success of Chinese manufacturing investment projects. Ling emphasized the need for clear communication channels between stakeholders, including investors, local governments, and community members. By fostering open dialogue and addressing concerns proactively, Chinese entrepreneurs can build trust and collaboration, essential for long-term success.
Building Name Recognition:
Another important aspect discussed by Ling is the significance of name recognition in attracting Chinese investment. States and communities that proactively position themselves as attractive destinations for manufacturing projects can capitalize on this trend. By offering incentives, streamlining regulatory processes, and fostering a welcoming environment, they can attract investment and boost economic growth.
Conclusion:
In conclusion, John Ling's insights shed light on the complex dynamics of Chinese manufacturing investment in the US. By understanding the mindset of Chinese entrepreneurs, recognizing the challenges they face, and implementing effective strategies for collaboration, states and communities can leverage this opportunity for mutual benefit. With the right approach, Chinese investment can drive economic growth, create jobs, and foster cross-cultural understanding.
Timestamps
0:00 - Introduction to the Episode and Guest
1:29 - John Ling's Journey and Chinese Investment in the U.S.
6:20 - The Evolution of Chinese Companies in the U.S. Market
14:30 - Understanding the Operational Success of Chinese Companies in the U.S.
21:30 - The Role of Local Teams and Cultural Differences
30:45 - The Importance of Local Partnerships and Government Engagement
39:50 - Concluding Thoughts and How to Connect with John Ling
Transcript
Art Dicker: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Asia Business Podcast. I'm your host, Art Dicker. Today we have the absolute pleasure of being joined by John Ling. John is Managing Director at LinVest LLC. LinVest is a boutique investment advisory firm doing strategy, site selection, lending services, and incentive negotiations for inbound foreign investors into the United States, particularly specializing in the greater China market.
Art Dicker: Welcome, John.
John Ling: Thank you, Art. Good morning. How is the sunny San Diego? It's always beautiful every time I went there.
Art Dicker: There are a few clouds in the sky today, but yes, normally it's picture-perfect here. And how are things in South Carolina?
John Ling: It's nice, a beautiful Carolina blue, as people say here, and it's warm and nice.
John Ling: And so enjoy catching up. Yeah.
Art Dicker: Perfect weather for a podcast. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So you have so much experience. We met at the SelectUSA conference, which is just a great event that helps foreign investors come, and lots of folks that work with foreign investors coming into the United States. And I know that's what your business is all about.
Art Dicker: And with the particular focus on greater China, like we said, so I think there's going to be plenty of things to talk about. You and I have talked earlier about the, there's quite a few Chinese companies coming to the United States these days for various reasons. So we're going to get into that in a lot of detail.
Art Dicker: My first question for you is if you can walk the audience through a bit, how we've gone over the years in different phases maybe of Chinese investment in the United States. Let's put, let's say maybe the last 20 years or so, what's a kind of a rough timeline of the types of investors and the types of investments that Chinese investors have been making over the last 20 years or so into the United States?
John Ling: Sure, Art, I don't know about you, but I'm not someone who really ever tried to plan ahead and I never thought about a so-called career path. So I came to this country in '91, and my first job was to market pre-engineered metal buildings to China. Every one of our clients at that time was a manufacturing project.
John Ling: So my first encounter with inbound Chinese investment project was a company by the name Fuyao glass. Oh yeah. They are the largest auto windshield maker in the world. I met them in '95; actually, their first project in the U.S. was in Greenville, South Carolina, where I currently live, and my wife's first job in the U.S. happened to work for the company, and the company was only less than $100 million a year in revenue. But yet the owner had quite some ambition to go abroad. He invested, I don't remember the exact dollar amount, but he was building a 130,000 square foot building, mostly for distribution and warehousing.
John Ling: And also thought about going into a joint venture with Saint-Gobain, which is at that time, probably the largest auto windshield maker in the world, a French company. It never worked out. So they failed in that first effort. And, but having said that there, the gentleman or the company was featured in a documentary.
Art Dicker: Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. And I think the name of the movie is that American Factory, if I remember right. And they even won some kind of Oscar documentary film award. And now they employ about, I would say 3,000 or so employees in the U.S. in multiple States. Right. Including Ohio, Illinois, and South Carolina, maybe one or two more.
John Ling: And my real first greenfield manufacturing project was Haier, the home appliances maker who later bought GE home appliances for $5.3 billion, and they were one of my clients in China. So they thought about coming to the U.S. in the late '90s to build a refrigerator factory. And of course understandably at that time people in China or in this country were wondering how in the world a Chinese company did do they just lose their mind coming by coming to the U.S. to build a factory? It should be another way around and remember in the mid or late '90s, you might as well say it's several generations ago in China. When you talk about, actually, there were hardly any so-called wholly-owned multinational company in China, but most say it's so-called joint venture.
John Ling: And so they were, as far as I can remember, I think they are the first greenfield Chinese investment coming to this country, and I joined South Carolina Department of Commerce in January 2000. At the beginning of this century, and I worked at the head office for 5 years, and then they saw the opportunity in the Chinese market.
John Ling: The governor and his commerce sector at that time, it was actually their idea upon seeing what's happening in China, and what kind of companies or opportunity I have introduced them to. So, they basically decided to set up a state office in China, and the state sent me to Shanghai in '05 to open the state office.
John Ling: The first five, six years, there were some activities, but nothing shaking or big. I think, to me, I think the turning point was in around 2012. I think that's as we may remember, that was after the financial crisis here, and the economy globally was not in great shape. The Chinese government at that time seemed to have handled it better during that period.
John Ling: So the economy seems to have sustained that hit. And also as Chinese business people travel to the world, they saw some opportunities and they saw, they also noticed the cost of manufacturing between the West, or in this case, the U.S. and China has been have been narrowed. So, they, so there are several companies that started the move.
John Ling: So, I think that's why I think 2012 is a turning point as we start seeing. Projects ranging from tens of millions or hundreds of millions. Coming to this way, and I work with quite a few of them, uh, in the following years, COVID shut down a lot of things. So for about two, three years, nothing much happening, but the past two years, contrary to most people's thinking, when we see what's happening around the globe, and especially in terms of the geopolitics.
John Ling: Or really the relationship between China and the U.S. most people may have thought this can. This could have almost stopped the inbound. Projects from China or great China region, but. What I have been seeing is that again, I have never seen such a strong pipeline. Never seen this many projects, so we are actively engaging with many different projects by taking them to visit different parts of the U.S. to help them to find the most suitable location for their project.
Art Dicker: That's a great introduction. That's, you've lived the timeline that I was trying to get the audience to understand. So that's, so you're the perfect person to talk about it, and amazing. And you mentioned Haier that you worked with there.
Art Dicker: It's not surprising that they're one of the first to come to the U.S. I know their CEO and founder was famous for taking a sledgehammer to break the refrigerators in the factory in the early days when it was moving over from a state plan company to a private company. Set the tone. And so it's not surprising that that founder would have the energy and creative thinking to come to the U.S. so early.
Art Dicker: And that's a wonderful success story. You mentioned they bought the GE appliance brand, and they were able to maintain the quality because it's a wonderful brand that they make good things. And then you also mentioned one thing I wanted to emphasize for the audience. You mentioned around 2012, there was a switch where Chinese companies realized that the cost differential was not so big anymore between the U.S. and China.
Art Dicker: And I guess that's largely because not so much anything that changed in the U.S., but China was becoming more expensive in labor costs and things like that. That's correct.
John Ling: Again, me and my family lived in Shanghai at that time. And as I talked to many business people, they, no matter, they either came here for business or for leisure. And as I go, say, go to a department store, a restaurant, and very often they find. That it's really reasonable, a lot of things they are purchasing. And as they talk to their counterparts here or customers here and ask different questions, they find out actually for most parts, yes, there are still a gap between the wages in China and the U.S., but at the professional level, especially at the management level, there's Actually, the gap is even narrower.
John Ling: So, when you consider, of course, when you are planning a project, you just don't look at the wages. You look at the overall picture. I guess my selling points at that time is that. When you think about how expensive. Then price is in China in Asia. And how hard for you to secure even a parcel of land, the utility costs, especially the electricities and the shipping costs, the freight costs, especially these days, duty.
John Ling: Yeah, of course. At that time, nobody knew what happened in the following years or decade. I, again, I'm not taking pleasure in saying this, but every project I have WordPress. At the moment, up to today, every one of them is very glad that they made the move because say a few projects even told me that had they not made the move, their whole company might have gone by.
John Ling: Now I am talking about, for example, one is a company that invested 200 million dollars in South Carolina, making the most basic goods, which is cotton yarn. And the owner told me had they not come the company, at least there is yarn spinning business in China. You know, is that actually, so he's very happy to have made that move.
John Ling: I also have another client. They make the. What do you call that? Drill? It's an industrial drill. And some hand tools they bought us. They bought a company here in 2009 for about right under 30,000,000 dollars and. That was again, they were trying to, they saw some opportunity in this country after or during the financial crisis.
John Ling: They went ahead and made a, to them, that's a huge purchase because it's not a big company. They actually just sold the business last year. I'm quite sure they made 10 times more, actually much more than that. And however, their, their business in China actually had not been growing as fast as they had hoped.
John Ling: So by coming to this country and by Really taking advantage of the market opportunities they saw and also being able to export to other parts of the world. from their U.S. operation, add a lot of value to their overall company planning.
Art Dicker: Let's unpack that a bit. That's very insightful. Let's unpack it a bit.
Art Dicker: As far as a lot of people might assume still that the U.S. has drill bit manufacturers and Cotton industry equipment and and all kinds of like appliances like G used to made in the Haier example And what is it that Chinese companies have so is it that US companies are not in this industry anymore Anyway, so they've lost some of that competitiveness or know-how Versus China where as we all know China is super competitive, right?
Art Dicker: And so it very much weeds out the weaker companies and the ones that can survive in China You I assume are already globally first in class these days. And so what is it that allows a Chinese company to land here and be able to operate so successfully from a cost perspective or from an operational perspective?
Art Dicker: Okay.
John Ling: Again, when I answer questions, I usually want, want to use one of my projects to explain where I come from. So. Again, years ago, when we look at this, when we look at us, we look at this as a country, the most industrialized country in the world, the most competitive market. And, um, but here most us business, we.
John Ling: Especially the publicly traded. We have to look at each quarter, how we perform, how the stockholder would react. And we, if we cannot compete in that certain segment over time, we'll try to walk out. The, the small, medium-sized company, again, this is a much more mature market. So the growth for small, medium size.
John Ling: Is with limited resources, it's hard to grow, like in some of the developing market. And unless you have some cool technology or know-how, otherwise for small-medium size, it's hard. Having said that, I'll use one of the projects I landed in Georgia. They make some, a product called TPE. I don't know how to describe it.
John Ling: It's something between plastic and rubber. offers you the strength but also flexibility. So it's about 2 billion market in both U.S. and China. Yet in China, you have 1,200 some factories making this product at different scales or levels, while in the U.S. there were about eight factories. So my project owner at that time, he was supplying to the domestic Chinese market, as well as some multinationals that have operations in China, such as Colgate.
John Ling: Lines and so on. So his thinking is that if I can be top two or three in the Chinese market, sure enough, I should be able to make a living among eight of us. And also his multinational clients are really trying to tell him he should come here to serve their operation. So that's why he did. Another thing I have noticed is that.
John Ling: Among over 2 billion worth of manufacturing projects that I landed in the U.S. from China today, every one of them is making money. Uh, I'm not suggesting they never lost money. Actually, the operation I mentioned earlier, that yarn spinning mill was a 200,000,000 dollar investment, almost 400 jobs. They lost money for the first three, four years left and right.
John Ling: And I feel so bad about that. And I told the chairman, I said, "Oh, come on. I'm sorry. I got you here. Now we are in such a mess." What happened was that the original idea was to produce yarn here, taking advantage of the cotton price here, as well as electricity costs. And ship these products to China. So when there was a change of administration from camp to the office, there was an escalated trade war between the two countries.
John Ling: So China slashed some high tariff imported US cotton yarn. So almost from the time they went into operation, they got shut out of the Chinese market. Now they were struggling to find customers in North America, Central America, South America, and, uh, it takes time as we know. So I still remember what the chairman told me.
John Ling: He said, he called my Chinese name and he said, "Unless one day I cannot afford this, otherwise I'm going to tough it out. I believe in the trend and when we do manufacturing, we don't look at the next quarter, next two, three years. We look at over time what's happening." He obviously believed in what he said. So now every time we met, he is, "Hey, you remember what I told you?"
John Ling: We are doing good now. So I think that's, I also want to make a point here, which is as people may or may not know export out of China has been mostly handled by multinationals and private Chinese companies. Few state-owned companies ever bothered to do that. Number one, not mentioning trying to come to this country to set up a manufacturing operation.
John Ling: They are smarter than that because that's a big risk to take for anyone, but especially for a state-owned company boss. So no matter during the time when the two countries were having a normal or more civilized relationship, or now, obviously a much more challenging environment, hardly any state-owned companies bothered to come here, unless I think for a short few years, there might be some trading firms, state-owned trading firms, or real estate.
John Ling: I don't even think real estate can, but anyway, so every one of my projects was by a privately owned Chinese company. And I guess some mentality is such that you have seen so much in China, the competition, the big rivalry, and they are used to it again. Still, it's not for it's still for those that are willing to explore and take a certain amount of risk.
Art Dicker: And when they come here, that's interesting because we're starting to get a sense of like the economic business rationale for coming here. And some of the most competitive companies and the experience they have from China. If they make it there, they can make it anywhere. When they come here to the U.S., what do they typically look for as far as a local team? You mentioned in some ways actually the talent here in the U.S. For the senior-level people, it's not so different than China where that's quite valuable as well. So is there a certain type of team that they look for knowing that, let's say that team has to work in two different cultures, for example?
John Ling: Uh, yes and no, it's no different from you and me. If we set up our operation here, we always want to find people who are willing to work. Um, that's probably the basic that you are expecting from whoever you want to work with. And unfortunately it's not always easy, especially in the past few years during the pandemic.
John Ling: And we hear companies as large as BMW, Boeing to mom-and-pop shops or small restaurant owners. Everyone is complaining about how difficult it is to find any labor, any willing labor. And also, I think they would like to, they are used to how in China from the senior management to the production workers, they really work hard and they are willing to put the extra effort into their daily work and that's I don't know.
John Ling: Sometimes that might be a cultural difference or what or the fact that. When countries climb up on their income level, you, over time, you lose a drive. And that happens to many countries actually. And I think China is probably facing the same challenge as the, what do you call that, the population age. And, and also really as a company is becoming more prosperous.
John Ling: That's something that I think for many of the Chinese companies. Companies coming here, they are having a little bit of a struggle to understand.
Art Dicker: Yeah, I was going to say, I often think about that too. Is it a cultural thing? I don't think it's controversial to say that Chinese workers work really hard and both at the management level and at the kind of floor level, and I agree with you, I lived there for 16 years.
Art Dicker: I could see it up close in some ways. I ascribe it to the fact that it, China has developed so fast, but it's really still just a generation. Yeah. Right. So it was only, it was only a generation ago that people were much more uncertain about their economic future. And even though in some ways, so many people there have quote made it and you think could live a more comfortable life.
Art Dicker: There's still that, I don't know, but if it's an anxiety or just that hardworking DNA doesn't get shut off in just one generation. So I think it's that way as well. And that explains a lot of it. Whereas the U.S., like you said, it's been a developed country for a while now, but yeah, I know that's, I've heard as well.
Art Dicker: It can be a bit of a challenge. How about the founders themselves? We talked about it a little already, but is there a certain mindset that a founder has coming to the U.S.? Do you, when, let's say, for example, someone comes to you, maybe the CEO doesn't have to be the founder, but a management team comes to you.
Art Dicker: Do you see some things in the when you're talking to them in the early stages? Are there certain signs or other characteristics about the team and the founder that you see that you say? Okay, I think this is more likely to work. Because I see this quality in them or not.
John Ling: Yes, actually, I for a few times as I take my projects to visit different states or communities.
John Ling: Um, they heard about my work with these types of projects. Some even tease with my project, right? Oh, Mr. Lin has his own screening process. Or vetting process, and so, as I spend the past 2 decades or longer working with these types of projects, I, yes, I think there are certain things I'm paying attention to.
John Ling: One is that I think. You may agree with what I'm saying, which is for any Chinese company that even dare to explore the possibility of setting up an operation, I'm talking about again, production operation in the U.S. They tend to be among the best in the industry, no matter is by the so-called Chinese standard or by really global standard.
John Ling: They have to be very competitive. Otherwise, You know, it's just impossible for anybody who's willing to do this. And so if you were, I don't know, investment fund or private equity fund in the U.S. actually, I know sometimes when you look at different projects to invest or co-invest, I think these types of companies would pass a first initial test in terms of their competitiveness in the industry.
John Ling: So during the period of time that the two countries had a fairly normal relationship with what they have observed or experience in China when you have people or capable team, or when you are well finance company, you can solve the world's problems. Problem. You shouldn't worry about a thing for quite a while.
John Ling: Most of the Chinese projects, they didn't think they need a third-party consultant to help them. They feel with. Our own team was, uh, help from the state and county government and we'll. And again, that's another thing. In China, when they do such a project, they always talk to the local government, the industrial park authority or whoever.
John Ling: And in China, as we know, government do have more influence or power in allocating things or in deciding things, but it's not always the same here. We definitely have a very different system. Again, most projects didn't understand that at that time. So, unless it's a project worth hundreds of millions of dollar.
John Ling: They may, but even with that, they may not these, uh, hire a consultant. Uh, that has quickly change and I think they understand the, it's a much more. Different environment in everything every aspect. It's also a very. Challenging time in terms of the relationship between the two country, which adds a lot of uncertainty for any project.
John Ling: Coming to from China, and so they are much more cautious. They ask a lot of questions. Which they should have done anyway, even years ago. So they, they do have a lot of concerns and worries. And by having said that, the U.S. has always been the largest market for almost any products.
John Ling: So what drives them to come here really is the size of the market. And also nowadays, very often. It's our customers in the U.S. whom they have a long-term relationship, basically telling them, "Please, could you come here? So we don't run into some. Situation like we experienced over the past few years, the interruption supply chain, the high ocean free cause the uncertainty."
John Ling: I think business around the world, they are very used to up and downs. It's a nature of any economy, but they just. If they can, they want to avoid the uncertainties. And also in the past customers in the U.S., we're not so willing to pay for a certain premium to avoid that or reduce that uncertainty. But now more than ever customers here in the U.S. are willing to pay for that premium if that gives them more certainty. I mentioned about the, in the years past, they were not willing to consider a 3rd party consultant. Another thing they were not so interested was to find a local partner. I'm talking about to do this together. Because again, that went back that goes back to the fact that they are big, they are competitive, they feel they can conquer the world.
John Ling: But now I think they are much more willing to, uh, uh, have a joint venture with a local partner. It could be in the same industry. It could be an equity partner. They are much more willing to. Sometimes they are even willing to take a minority ownership.
Art Dicker: It's almost somewhat similar to what foreign investors in China went through a similar cycle, right?
Art Dicker: In the beginning, there was either a government preference or a lot more people started out forming joint ventures and stuff. Of course, in the auto industry, you had to, and then there was a preference for woofies and setting up your own, doing things on your own. But now it has also gone back and come back full circle again, where maybe not a traditional joint venture, But you might have a local company take over, license the technology or the brand even to them.
Art Dicker: And so it's interesting. Yeah. Somehow people have learned their lessons that that actually might work better these days. Yeah. Got it. And you mentioned working with local government here in the U.S. and that's the last topic I wanted to get into a bit. And that's where your work really is important, but maybe the most important part of what you do.
Art Dicker: The, and that is the engagement process with the local government, whether it's from fact factoring into site selection and maybe some incentives and so forth, what is, what has been your experience as far as which state, I don't want to get you in trouble, but which state governments are more receptive Or what the process is like and your role in the process, helping that engagement.
John Ling: again, I spend a total of 19 years working for two state economic development agency, 15 years with South Carolina, four years with Georgia.
John Ling: So I used to sit on the other side of the bench, um, talking about project like this. And now I'm in the private sector trying basically to do the same. I think what again, it doesn't matter if it's a Chinese project or any international project. People just want to go into a community that feel they are being appreciated or welcome and, uh.
John Ling: Also, the Chinese culture is such that they value the relationship and they want to build a good relationship. And especially when they come to a not so familiar environment, they are much more sensitive to a lot of things. For example, even I saw yesterday I was sending a request to real estate broker.
John Ling: On behalf of 1 of my project, they are looking at a facility. In the South seas to acquire and 1 question they ask is about the wind direction. That's coming and ask me, like. Why they are asking this question so I said they. There's 3rd slide you might not even have noticed a slide. Older and there's some noise.
John Ling: I don't believe it's actually us. We were standing at 1 facility during their visit in December from distance. They were surprised about the noise level, so to speak. They were like, Oh gosh, if it were in China, this plan will be shut down now. And, but I think they are much more sensitive to, to be a team player, so to speak, and they want to be part of the community.
John Ling: So they are very sensitive to this. And so what I had done, and I think what had worked. Again, because of the travel restriction over the past few years, it's hard to do that. And hopefully that's going to come back at some point, which is, I remember when I was with South Carolina, every year we'll organize.
John Ling: Maybe one or two group visit that sometimes composed by elected officials, private business, company owners, lawyers, accountants, you name it. And actually, they started going there in almost as soon as we set up an office in Shanghai around 06. They pay their own time. I don't think you know, they get rewarded immediately because for quite a while there were hardly any project and I was struggling to line up visit for them when they visit there.
John Ling: Obviously, everyone wants to visit active project, but I didn't have hardly any to show for.
John Ling: And another thing is sad. Again, that's about state politics. When a group from certain part of the state cam, sometimes I was told you shouldn't favor one region over the other. So I wasn't supposed to take them to visit active project.
John Ling: Anyhow, anyway, and then by the time I mentioned around 2012, when projects start happening and there were much more come project visits. These group of people have the, how should I say, understanding or a little bit more understanding about the country as a whole in China, about their people, culture, at least you find some topics to talk about.
John Ling: and I think communication on any project is so critical. And it doesn't matter where was where this community is or state is, I think it's just how you make a project feel comfortable. And feel welcome, and I think that's important.
John Ling: Another thing I want to. Add is that it's no different from a company that wants to open the international market.
John Ling: It may take a while to get you there to position. Well. Uh, in that market, and you want to be able to position yourself early, especially in the growing market. And once you build your name recognition. It's difficult to lose that. So, South Carolina for a while, because of the fact that they position themselves ahead of every almost every other state.
John Ling: They build a name recognition among Chinese project as a state. To locate the manufacturing project again, it's not because the state is better than. Any other states or more competitive, but rather it's, it's a name recognition of people. Do you talk to each other, especially when you are trying to decide.
John Ling: For a project like this, and you do Internet search, you talk to the actual project. And so now most people find us through Internet search through my previous project or current projects. And by having said that, that's why I think it's important for any state and community. That if you are interested with the economic development project, we look at this project.
John Ling: We. Try to understand the profile of the project, what they are looking for. And 1 thing I, again, I normally would recommend is that. If a community, if a project became interested with your project, you are in the final. 2 or 3 would make the effort to travel there to see their operation to to have a better understanding.
John Ling: And I think that will position. Uh, this community at a much stronger position during the process.
Art Dicker: Interesting. Yeah, that's very helpful. I think the, the audience, I think is whole journey. You've taken the audience through about the mindset of Chinese men and Chinese founders and what they're coming from in the, in China, it's such a competitive environment and what they can bring here.
Art Dicker: Like you said, they make it there. They can make it anywhere. And even temporary economic challenges are not enough to throw them off. They're in it for the long haul. So that's a great, I don't think that's such an obvious, those are such obvious points at all. And from people just hearing about the headline numbers of what it takes and the investment amounts and so forth, John, it's been totally a thrill to have you on.
Art Dicker: And I just think that some people are going to listen to this and maybe want to reach out to you. I'm not sure exactly. For what? Either for a project, or maybe they're a state, they're a state officer hoping to attract investment for their state, or for whatever reason, if someone wants to reach out to you, is LinkedIn a good way to reach out to you?
Art Dicker: Or is, what's, how should people? That will be good. Yeah, we can put your LinkedIn up on the website and we also post this on LinkedIn. So hopefully that'll be easy for people to find you. I just want to thank you so much for joining us. This has been again, very helpful. And I do think our audience is going to get quite a lot out of this episode, just from the decades of experience you have doing this.
Art Dicker: And it's a fascinating topic. John, so much for joining us.