216: The Machine Layer - Building Trust in the Age of AI Search with Duane Forrester

Duane Forrester, 30-year search veteran who co-launched Schema.org and built Bing Webmaster Tools, explains why AI systems prioritize trust above all else. We discuss machine comfort bias, chunk-level content optimization, why SEO is now a multidisciplinary role, and how to prepare for a world where LLMs decide who gets cited.

About the Guest

Duane Forrester is the author of "The Machine Layer" and search industry pioneer

• 30 years in search and digital strategy
• Senior Product Manager at Microsoft - built Bing Webmaster Tools
• Co-launched Schema.org structured data standard
• Leadership roles at Bruce Clay Inc. and Yext
• Founder of Unbound Answers, creator of CitationIQ

Chapters

• 00:00 - Intro
• 01:01 - The biggest shift SEO has ever seen
• 03:30 - Machine Comfort Bias: the 5 layers of trust
• 09:19 - Chunking: writing for AI and humans
• 16:01 - Making content citation-ready
• 18:35 - Schema.org: the trust infrastructure
• 25:46 - Ironman vs Superman: AI as amplifier, not savior
• 32:28 - EEAT, Universal Verifiers, and why trust is everything
• 42:59 - Latent Choice Signals: the invisible metrics
• 52:35 - The Machine Layer book
• 57:53 - Emerging roles in AI discoverability
• 01:01:16 - Where to find Duane

Key Takeaways

1. Trust is the new algorithm - LLMs need multiple dimensions of verification before citing you. If you can provide everything they need without them having to guess, they'll lean into that "machine comfort bias"
2. Chunking matters, but not how you think - Don't reformat your entire page into 300-word blocks. Instead, put key facts, figures, and bullet points at the top. LLMs get "lost in the middle" of long-form content
3. Be the canonical source - Your goal isn't rankings, it's being seen as THE source of knowledge on your topic. If you haven't expanded the LLM's training data with net new information, you won't be cited
4. SEO is now multidisciplinary - Technical SEOs must understand branding, conversion, engagement, PR, and UX. Silos are killing companies in the AI discovery layer
5. AI is Ironman, not Superman - These systems amplify your skills but require you to drive them. Hope is not a strategy. Always ask self-referencing questions to verify outputs
6. LLMs want to save money - They won't waste tokens looking elsewhere if you provide everything they need. Consistency and trust reduce their computational costs

Resources Mentioned

Duane's Work

• Book: The Machine Layer - Available on Amazon (Kindle & Paperback)
• Website: duaneforrester.com - Free frameworks from the book available
• Substack: duaneforresterdecodes.substack.com
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dforrester

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No Hacks is a podcast about web performance, technical SEO, and the agentic web. Hosted by Slobodan "Sani" Manic.