Whether you are a pro climber, small business owner, coach, writer, filmmaker or any other entrepreneur in the climbing industry, Taylor Swift has something to teach you.

In this Board Meeting, Kris and Nate draw what might seem an odd comparison: pro climbers and Miss Americana herself, Taylor Swift. With some of the recent industry drama surrounding the Eddie Bauer athlete team firing and the shuttering of the big print mags, the topic of what it means to be a paid pro climber, writer, or creative these days is up for debate. Kris compares the outdoor industry to today’s music industry, where – thanks to streaming services like the one you’re probably using to listen to this episode right now – artists are no longer making money from their music but rather ticket sales, brand collaborations, and other outlets. An artist or athlete’s accomplishments alone, be they a #1 hit song or a groundbreaking FA, are no longer enough. Taylor Swift seems to have figured it out, so maybe the pros should be taking notes.

Special thanks to Lauren Abernathy and her crew of Swifties for pointing me to good lyrics to pull for this episode.

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BOARD MEETINGS | What Pro Climbers Can Learn From Taylor Swift