In this episode, Marius Hobbhahn, CEO of Apollo Research, sits down with Nathan Labenz to discuss Apollo’s research in AI deception, interpretability, and affordances. If you need an ecommerce platform, check out our sponsor Shopify: https://shopify.com/cognitive for a $1/month trial period.

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SPONSORS:

Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Shopify powers 10% of ALL eCommerce in the US. And Shopify's the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen, and 1,000,000s of other entrepreneurs across 175 countries.From their all-in-one e-commerce platform, to their in-person POS system – wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify's got you covered. With free Shopify Magic, sell more with less effort by whipping up captivating content that converts – from blog posts to product descriptions using AI. Sign up for $1/month trial period: https://shopify.com/cognitive

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X/SOCIAL:

@labenz (Nathan)

@MariusHobbhahn (Marius)

@eriktorenberg (Erik)

@CogRev_Podcast

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00:00) - Episode Preview

(00:05:40) - Understanding the Role of Apollo Research 

(00:08:02) - The Evolution of AI Safety

(00:11:30) - Apollo’s Framework

(00:15:10) - Sponsors: Shopify 

(00:16:49) - Understanding AI Affordances and Resulting Interactions in the World

(00:31:00) - Sponsors: Omneky

(00:39:00) - Interpretability and deceptive alignment 

(00:45:55) - Why might deception arise in the first place?

(00:47:46) - Understanding deceptive alignment 

(00:57:49) - New Architectures

(01:02:23) - Interpretability at deployment phase

(01:03:35) - Deception in AI | A Case Study

(01:09:03) - Deceptive AI Stock Trader

(01:18:51) - Impact of discouragement on unethical AI behaviour

(01:19:45) - Giving the AI a Reasoning Scratchpad and Impact on Deception

(01:21:06) - Double-edged sword of removing the scratchpad

(01:23:00) - Analyzing impact of model size on insider training 

(01:28:00) - Challenges and necessity of 3rd Party Auditing

(01:31:00) - Role of government in regulation 

(01:52:17) - How can individuals get involved in red teaming?

This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.