How Skull and Bones Went Woke: Identity Politics in Elite Societies

In this episode, delve into the controversial transformation of Yale's infamous secret society, Skull and Bones. The discussion explores how the organization, historically known for its exclusive white male membership, has altered its selection processes to prioritize diversity, equity, and inclusion. The conversation covers pivotal moments and changes within the society, raising questions about hypocrisy, elitism, and the true motives behind these shifts. It also touches on broader implications for elite networks and how they reconcile with modern political ideologies, highlighting the complexities and contradictions within these evolving traditions.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about the secret society skull and bones. And before anyone thinks that this title was clickbait and that maybe this secret society, one of the most famous secret societies in the world didn't actually go woke.

I'll start with a quick excerpt for what I'm going to be reading in 2020. Skull and Bones had its first entirely non white class today, the idea of skull and bones selecting someone whose dad was a Republican president seems inconceivable.

The so called tap lines, the tradition guaranteeing the football captain and the student body president would end up in bones, are all gone. And few descendants of the alumni members get in. Instead, the secret societies affirmatively select students ,

the bones class of 2021 had quote unquote all kinds of people, but the one thing they didn't have was a single member who was a conservative. Okay, I get an [00:01:00] idea of just how there's been a

Simone Collins: takeover and that's a, that's a little Al canes recalls being tapped

Malcolm Collins: by a senior who wanted to keep the Latino line going.

So this was a person who was tapped by another Latino with the intention that they would go and tap a Latino themselves to keep at least this Latino line going with it. Okay. All right. He decided to focus on a different diversity metric. I chose three trans people. Oh no, oh no. That was my specific goal.

Simone Collins: Oh, it's yeah, wow. No white people, three trans people. It reminds me of those cartoons of like, a little fish eats a another tinier fish, and then a bigger fish eats that one, and a bigger fish eats that one until, yeah. I

Malcolm Collins: wanted to go into this because I think a lot of people, when they look at these societies, there's a few things that we can take away from this.

One is we're going to learn sort of how they took over these organizations and how this happens to, we're going to see these strange parallel [00:02:00] between the, if you look at the history of skull and bones, you know, they were a. Supremacist and an ethno supremacist organization at times. Well, they still are.

It's fine. Nothing has changed. Literally, the racists are still the one in charge. Yeah. They are still deeply concerned with and talk about the skin color background. Well, thank goodness. Tradition isn't dead. Of everyone that's being admitted to the organization. This is great. To me highlights the ethno elitism of the leftist oligarchical class at this point.

It shows how these people get into positions of corporate power to continue to carry out their dastardly needs. And it shows I, I think as well when people think to these old pockets. Of secret societies, and you know, you famously used to be managing director of a secret society that was founded by Peter Thiel and Orrin Hoffman.

We go to stuff like Hereticon, that's one I can talk about. We also go to a bunch of things I can't talk about, like I mentioned before, [00:03:00] because it was found out by a secret undercover reporter that I've been to the Bohemian Grove. But I can't say anything more than that. I can only do quotes from other people.

Same thing with my knowledge of Skull and Bones. I need to, I can talk around it. I didn't go to Yale, so I'm, you know, not directly connected. But I, I might be able to add some elaboration as I'm reading through this, but again, I have to be very careful about what I say, but I have a lot of insight into these things.

One of my favorite claims to fame personally is that the book, The Bloodlines of the Illuminati which is like the major Illuminati book, the CII hosted on their website for whatever reason. Says that my dad, like calling him out by name and the company he runs is one of the supposed leaders of the Illuminati.

So I'm the oldest male child, so I wasn't born yet when this book was written. So now I guess I'm one of the leaders of the Illuminati too. But what's humorous is in terms of the secret societies that actually impact things, you and I actually are like significant players. And I think what people don't.

realize is that the secret societies and parties that impact things are not the ones that you and conspiracy [00:04:00] theorists are afraid of. And most of them are on your side. I. e., if what they were saying at these events was something that you could just say out in the open then it would be what aligned with the urban monocultures goal for our society.

It would align with what like the leftist oligarchs want for our society. The reason they're meeting secretly is because they are in opposition to that. Now, I'm sure that there is likely some mirror societies to ours that are the actual like PDA file stuff. I mean, we know that like Epstein's Island existed and everything like that.

Yeah. So, like, clearly there was an elite network of leftists of PDA files and they likely didn't disappear just because we got rid of the school teacher that hosted the stuff. So, yeah, that, that likely exists. But I don't know if those, those organizations have the power that they used to have.

And we'll see likely why they lost a lot of their power. It's just because of governing inefficiency when you devolve into this DEI nonsense.

Simone Collins: But

Malcolm Collins: any thoughts before I dive into this? [00:05:00]

Simone Collins: I really want to hear more. I want to hear how this happened.

Malcolm Collins: All right, skull and bones equity and inclusion This was a piece in the atlantic a couple years back one evening in 2019 in a windowless building known as the tomb in the center of yale's campus The members of skull and bones snapped there They were having granted membership to the most elite secret society at one of the most elite universities in the world Part of a rare group that for generations included individuals from the most powerful families on the planet the vanderbilts the rockefellers And Buckley's have all been members of Skull and Bones.

Three bonesmen would go on to become President of the United States. Their traditions, including oaths of secrecy upon admission and antics, stealing a gravestone of Yale's founders and the rumors about them that the Bones tomb contains a human skull are legendary and an intense source of campus gossip.

Just, you know, I've cut a lot out of this story, so I'm just reading the juiciest bits.

Simone Collins: Good.

Malcolm Collins: That assumes that most of our audience is going to Basically know who the skull and bones are a lot of that expository stuff. I took out But they're in the tomb [00:06:00] surrounded by oil portraits of former bones men all white all chosen by the society's alumni board The current members felt overcome not by the achievements of those that had come before them or by the possibilities that lay ahead But instead by the organization's long history So the students did what they felt had to be done they pulled the portraits down and replaced them with homemade signs Criticizing the Secret Society's records of keeping people of color out of its rank.

Ugh! Quote, Portraits is a relatively straightforward and easy ask. End quote. One member who participated in the redecoration told me, Quote, The way a place looks can have a large impact on somebody's psyche. End quote. This is somebody in the Skull and Bones! My psyche was terrorized by the pictures on the wall of the people who built the society!

Simone Collins: Oh my goodness.

Malcolm Collins: This was not the only act of Skull and Bones Rebellion in 2019. During an all expense paid trip [00:07:00] to meet with George W. Bush in Texas that year, one of the members confronted the ex president, who wrote in his 1999 autobiography, I joined Skull and Bones, a secret society. So secret, I can't say anything anymore, and criticized him for leading America into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to several people familiar with the trip.

More recently, young graduates of Brezeliz, another of the Ancient Eight, these are other secret societies on Yale Yale's most elite secret societies. Pressed to change the name of the society's nonprofit legal entity from the Colony Foundation on the grounds that it evoked slavery and colonialism.

Students in LOEA society named for LOE Yale also tried to re christen the organization over the name Stakes. Ties to the Slave Trade. When the Bones Clan of 2019 took down the portraits, some of their predecessors were aghast at the bad . Manners a former member. Of the bones alumni board who graduated from Yale in the 1960s told me given that the society's former members were overwhelmingly white [00:08:00] He argued it didn't make sense to criticize skull and bones for accurately portraying its own legacy Their historical protest was silly, end quote.

He said, Still, the Bones board tried to appease students by putting up photographs of non white alumni alongside the portraits. This year, the former board told me the board will unveil the Seeker Society's fourth portrait of a black alumnus. Similarly, Bresoliz agreed to rename the Colony Foundation.

Eloi, However, is keeping its name picture of skull and bones or any of the anyway. Yeah. Continue. Would you, what'd you want to say? Like,

Simone Collins: I just start at this point, you have to wonder why people want to join. If they hate it so much, why do you want to join it? I'm very, you

Malcolm Collins: can see it later. It's because they don't actually hate what it represents.

They don't actually hate the exclusion and the special privileges. They're like, Oh, well I hated it before I got in, but now I can use it to get a good job.

You know, fundamentally, they're

Simone Collins: [00:09:00] still taking down the paintings. They're still criticizing the alumni. Like they're, they're undoing those benefits.

What's the point?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no. These individuals still get those benefits. These individuals, you'll see, you'll see they still get the old people. Haven't learned their lesson about don't let these types of people into your organizations. They were not let in because of their moral character. They were not let in because of their.

You know, integrity or work ethic or likelihood to be successful in the future. They were let in because they're vile, frankly, because they identified with the cult that took over and destroyed your organization's history. And I think that accepting this and trying to find a way forwards from this place of acceptance is where these people can begin to think about fixing things.

And, yeah, it's it's just horrifying. But I think it shows how quickly and how totally many of these organizations have just been completely destroyed [00:10:00] from any historical route that they had. And yet this destruction is based in racist and racial elitism. Picture a member of skull and bones or any of the other ancient eight societies.

And you'll probably conjure a preppy white guy who summers in the Cape. In fact, in recent years, the demographics of Yale's most elite organizations have been utterly transformed in 2020 skull and bones. had an entirely non white class. Every year, the society admits around 15 rising seniors. Selections must be unanimous and members have final say.

This was the key thing that allowed for the destruction of the organization.

Simone Collins: Because

Malcolm Collins: the admission had to be unanimous. So you have one woke person, you get one diseased member in your organization. That's it. All of a sudden, they scan for everyone.

Simone Collins: And then it's just a war of attrition until everyone's like, Yeah, fine.

Well, we'll select your person. Fine.

Malcolm Collins: And then it's all Black, extremely woke people. Yeah. They, as I said, they didn't invite a single person from a conservative ideological background. These are not organizations that are interested in. Continuity with the past outside of racial [00:11:00] elitism.

Interesting. But this racial elitism is exemplified in woke culture in a way that Oh, 100%.

Simone Collins: That's the top place where it's alive now. And you can see that in the way that suddenly the composition of, of skull and bones changed.

Malcolm Collins: Many of the societies now have only one or two students each year who aren't from historically marginalized groups.

So it's very hard to get in now, if you're white today, the idea. So you one to two white people every year.

Simone Collins: That's

Malcolm Collins: it. Today, the idea of skull and bones selecting someone whose dad was a Republican president seems inconceivable. The so called tap lines, the tradition guaranteeing the football captain, the student body rep, the skull and bones are long gone.

Few descendants of alumni get in. Instead, the secret societies affirmatively select for students who are their first in family to attend college, who are from a low income background or who are part of a minority group. This has created something of a diversity arms race. Quote, people are intentionally or not thinking does this cohort have too many white people in quote said Alkanes a member of [00:12:00] Brazilian class of 2020.

It's definitely an undercurrent. He said, I graduated from Yale last spring and I didn't belong to a secret society when it came time for members in my year to select the next class, a friend of an ancient eight society worried that the person she wanted to tap wouldn't get in. He was a person of color, but came from a wealthy family and was not the first in his family to attend college.

She was the right to worry. The society rejected. Well, that's how bad this is.

A history of progressive activism is an asset among secret society hopefuls. Oh, so you need to be a progressive activist as well. One of the leaders of Yale's Democratic Socialist Chapter, socialists Mind. You joined Scroll and Key, one of the oldest secret societies last year. Okay. The Bones class of 2021 had quote people from all kinds of backgrounds.

In quote, one member of the class told me, but no conservatives unless you count centrist as [00:13:00] conservatives, which some members do.

Simone Collins: Most members probably do.

Malcolm Collins: Like Yale student body overall members of the secret societies mostly range from far left to left of center in short Yale secret societies are now filled with students who as a matter of political conviction consider wealth privilege Indefensible, but who as members of Yale's most elite clubs enjoy enormous advantages skull and bones pair students with alumni mentors in the field They hope to enter.

It has an endowment of 17 million. Bones members spend a week in late summer getting to know one another at the group's private island on St. Lawrence River. Dinners at ancient eight societies are prepared by private chefs. They used a 17 million endowment and all of these privileges and all of these mentorships to progress and further this cult that they're a part of.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: And this racist fundamental cult. And I think That if I was a member of the alumni of this group, I would focus on attempting to create a [00:14:00] parallel society at the university that focused on individual integrity and not this racist nonsense or find other ways to deal with this. Like, just let the organization drain the 17 million dollar fund because they will stop doing the mentorship, start doing the mentorships for people who deserve it and are actually being ethnically discriminating against which.

These days as not these people as we can see from their acceptance into these organizations

Simone Collins: Yeah

Malcolm Collins: And, and that is what we're seeing, like at the dinner parties we host in New York, the dinner parties we host in D. C. We always try to have young, rising stars at these events when we can, and we connect these individuals with movers and shakers, and it's done a lot to accelerate their careers.

And I think that this is something that it's upon us and all, you know, sane thinking individuals with ties to power to continue to do. It's on you to fund and invest in the things that can't get [00:15:00] investment in other ways to do donations to those types of things instead of, you know, what keeps you on the board of whatever that makes you look good.

In 2021, Caleb Dunson, then a Yale sophomore published an op ed in the school newspaper. Titled Abolish Yale. Oh, fantastic. In the essay, he described his discomfort attending an opulent holiday feast for students while homeless people suffered in the cold nearby. Remember, they have private chefs, private islands.

The school operates, quote, under the assumption that only a small group of remarkable people can push humanity forwards, end quote. Well, I mean, that's true wrote Dunton. And it's likely not you or the people you're associated with, to be frank who is black. Quote, it started off excluding women and people of color from its student body and now parades them around for diversity photos and justice brownie points, end quote. Even if the university made marginal changes, which Johnson argued it had been reluctant to do, its nature would remain the same, quote, since we can't change Yale, we have to tear it down, end quote, he wrote.

So they're trying to destroy [00:16:00] these traditions, these organizations, and everything they stood for while using them to push their cult like message. Today, Dunson is a member of one of the ancient eight societies. That's the type of person that these organizations are admitting. He knows how that looks.

When I asked him about the apparent contradiction, he said he decided to join in order to make new friends and be part of a community, but acknowledged that he was attracted to the status that being in a society confers. Quote, once you get a tap for a society, it's funny how quickly you get invested in the preservation of that society.

End quote. He told me, ultimately, he said, given his political views, are at odds with attending Yale in the first place, quote, there's already a bit of cognitive dissonance, end quote. So joining a secret society isn't that big a leap. Oh, what a

Simone Collins: hypocrite. This is so annoying. If you don't believe in Yale, don't apply to Yale.

Like, huh. I hate this. This

Malcolm Collins: is, oh, it's painful.

This is why I love when you talk to one of these lefties who want like communism or more socialism, and you're like, well, every [00:17:00] time that's been done in the past, the people, as soon as they got power to manage the system, ended up abusing it, taking all the money for themselves, becoming elitist, creating a strict class system with an oligarchy that was it.

Malcolm Collins: Even less predictable than it was under capitalism and they're like, oh no, no, no, no, no the next generation of elite communists They're not like that They would give up the power as soon as it was handed to them and yet we see it even in the case of these kids at like Yale Being given these giant endowments and private islands and stuff like that that we'll learn about in just a second They don't give it up.

They don't give any of it up. they keep the system working for them even individuals like Bernie Sanders, for example, number one, and has been for like 10 years receiver of a pharma donations among senators, , and, and he also was like, oh, well, those are all small donations.

Those are all small donations. Really, Bernie, buddy. , that's why you fought so hard against RFK

getting [00:18:00] appointed that makes no sense that you, it, when you're looking at an industry, That has a vested interest in greasing the hands of senators that you could beat every other senator in terms of donations by chance from small donations from employees multiple years in a row for a decade

and that you would ardently campaign for their interests. No, the point is, is that these individuals, whether it's Bernie Sanders or these DEI guys and skull and bones, , the moment they get power, all of their values that they have been campaigning for disappear.

Are these people not the, this is the majority of the people at Yale now. Yale now on somebody's resume just stamps them as this kind of grifter. I mean, you really gotta be like, and when did you graduate? You know, I went to Stanford back when Stanford was still like a respectable institution.

A lot of people went to Yale in the past. I know some friends who went to Princeton who are, I think doing a lawsuit saying that the organization no longer has any it's like a negative. On their [00:19:00] resume at this point. No,

Simone Collins: the idea was yeah to to file a lawsuit because their management of the school had degradated the value of The degree that they'd spent so much money to get

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, which is absolutely true These organizations are being horrific stewards because they have been co opted by the cult and we'll see if the vibeship pushes them back We'll see if the supreme court lawsuit making it illegal to discriminate against someone based on race Surprise surprise that we had to do that in the united states States.

And these were the people fighting against that Supreme Court decision screeching about it. But they're also the elitists who control everything. The Republican Party of today is fundamentally an anti elitist party. It is a party of the people because this is elitism. You can't be pro this stuff and anti elitism.

Yeah. The DEI is elitism. It's like a fundamentally elitist idea. Yeah. Yes. The most common argument current and recent members give [00:20:00] for preserving the societies is that by opening them up to groups that had previously been excluding, they can help diversify the elite. Ally Canals recalls being tapped by a senior who wanted to quote, keep the Latino line going.

Once inside, Canals focused on a different diversity metric. I chose trans people, Canals told me. That was my specific goal. So three trans people, no Latinas. Today's students believe that their values are better than those of the secret society members who came before them, and thus they will use their positions in more socially beneficial ways, even if they're not yet sure exactly how.

The member of the 2021 bones class had been uneasy about joining, but was convinced by a student from the year above quote. Yes, there is that baggage that we do have to reckon with in quote. The older student told her, but the fact that you are reckoning with it.

The other people in your class are reckoning with it. That's a good sign. Her class included many students from low income families. And they often talked about how they would leverage their [00:21:00] network to help their communities. One recent Bones member used an alumni gathering to fundraise for a non profit she ran.

Mm hmm. Nearly all of the current, and basically to get money for herself. Yeah. Nearly all of the current and recent members I spoke with said that it would be better if secret societies didn't exist at all. But, given that they do exist, they decided they might as well join to make it better. The most full throat.

critiqued as societies tends to come for people who didn't get in. Elizabeth thou. Oh, she was Asian. She never had a shot. Who graduated from Yale in 2023 felt confident in her odds to be tapped by St. Elmo's one of the ancient eight, but she spent tap day crying because she wasn't chosen. Of course she's Asian.

Doesn't she know she's, she's an underclass by the standards of DEI and comparing her qualifications against those of her friends who were, Invited in. In Yale Daily News op ed, she argued that secret societies should be torn down rather than open up. By including more students from marginalized backgrounds, [00:22:00] she wrote, the society system merely diversifies the ranks of the worthy without transforming the underlying structures that deem others worthy.

In quote, yes, it's exactly the same as it always was in that respect. And yet she admitted, quote, I know in my bones that if I had gotten tapped by Selma's, I would have taken it and likely wouldn't have developed a critical mode of participation. In quote, they're all, they're all such Democrats.

Quote, everyone talked a really big game. In quote, one member of the LA class of 2019 told me, quote, in the first months of my time in the society, there were people like, we got to burn this place down. We need to mobilize the endowment to redistribute the wealth back to New Haven. And then inevitably we all just ended up doing what had been done in year.

It's previous, which is doing the bios, hanging out with each other and a few volunteer things, but it wasn't anything radical in quote, as the 1960s bones alumnus, former member told me, quote, if you want things to stay the [00:23:00] same, everything has to change in quote, in his view, the secret societies are thriving.

This is an old alumni members. And alumni meet for the annual bone celebration in New York. The old guard gives a hearty applause to the new members and the kids are thinking there's somebody in this room who's going to help me get a job.

And that's what the old board member was saying, the quotes there. So they, and this is fundamentally what a lot of these people who were conservatives of the last generation and were taken in by the oligarch and are like the never Trumpers and everything like that, they don't understand how much this new generation.

One does not care about integrity. They do not care about actually making the world a better place that they care about this redistribution cult if you gave skull and bones Endowment to for example, just redistributed it to yale. It would be gone Like that. It's basically dumping it in the ocean. In terms of the impact it would have as we've seen from things like the UBI studies.

It might even make the [00:24:00] situation worse. These individuals do not care about any evidence backed direction to make the world better.

Simone Collins: Do you think these people are going to get jobs from the network though? Because if I were one of the senior How do the woke people get

Malcolm Collins: to the top of BlackRock and s**t like that, Simone?

This person was one of the heads who said, Oh, I think this is all a good thing in the 1960s. A lot of elitist society, as you and I have seen, Like, if you talk about like the, the, The reason why we do secret meetings is because we're like Part of the underground, right? The overground, if you go to like the Met Gala or something like that everyone there agrees with this ideology without fully realizing that it plans to have them erased.

I'm not even

Simone Collins: concerned about that. I mean, I, I guess, wait, maybe this makes sense because a lot of like this particular network, which I guess used to be kind of an old boys network hired. Almost like [00:25:00] hereditary dynasties into, we'll just say show positions that didn't actually need to perform necessarily.

Yeah. Like, I think you saw this a lot with sort of the old garden Dallas where. Like kids would expect to go into family businesses, but then like not actually do anything, you know They just like they'd get a big salary and just be there and maybe that's what these networks were meant for was fulfilling these these almost dynastic positions that were No, a lot of these positions don't work

Malcolm Collins: that way anymore.

Simone Collins: That's, that's the point though, is when we moved to Dallas, you realized that all of your friends who had grown up in that aristocracy weren't getting the jobs they expected. Yeah, they thought

Malcolm Collins: they were going to get handed jobs, but now like boards exist and stuff like that. But these boards have been taken over by these types of people.

Simone Collins: This is

Malcolm Collins: fundamentally a religious cult that is taking over things. And it functions like a cult, like a self reinforcing mechanism. I see.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So we basically went from old boys, dynastic networks, putting useless people into useless possessions to woke [00:26:00] boards, putting people not based on merit into yes, that we're transforming the

Malcolm Collins: company's goals, the goals of these organizations.

Now it's to promote the D E I mindset, this, this cult mindset. And they've said that very clearly. I see my role at this organization as promoting this mindset. Yeah. In terms of what we accept, in terms of how we leverage our money, in terms of what we do when we get into other companies. They believe that this is like a moral north star that they build every action that they take around.

Simone Collins: Okay, that makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: And it is Well, I mean, how do these people get in places like BlackRock and stuff like that? You think that these people are smart? Like they're not particularly intelligent. Like we've run into them whether it was you know Given that I went to institutions like Stanford for my MBA and stuff like that, and St.

Andrews for my undergrad where you had this, the people, you know, and so I've seen the people who do the DEI pathway and they're not your [00:27:00] great performers they're, they, they are You know, they, they often got there through a DEI pathway as well. And it's, it's obvious. Well, I think

Simone Collins: that's the problem is they could be great performers, but the way that they rose wasn't from learning how to be great performers, it was from learning how to manipulate DEI oriented networks.

So they, they weren't given the opportunity nor were they given the incentive to build the ability to be, to, to yield a return on investment. And that's a really, really sad thing is that these. actually typically are very smart people because it takes a good amount of savvy cunning and emotional intelligence to To get that far and these

Malcolm Collins: people, yeah,

Simone Collins: and yet they're then going forward, they only use the cunning and savvy and Machiavellian manipulation skills rather than complex problem solving and project management and data analysis and all the things they should be using if creating good outcomes for whatever organization they've chosen to join.

So it's a shame [00:28:00] and I just want to make it clear that we don't think that these people are inherently. Less than. We think that they have been incentivized to play a game that makes them useless.

Malcolm Collins: If somebody is the agent of a dangerous cult that is dangerous, not just in its racial discrimination and its implementation of a racial hierarchy it's, it's dangerous in a lot of the ideas it pedals, you know, when you begin to push this stuff at like the FAA, where we talked about where people were being hired to try to get more.

Black people on board, they post the idea of, Oh, well, we need to have a test that like the wrong answer is science was my favorite subject at school, or I take answers well, and it becomes like a racist person stereotype of black culture because these people have a really, really harmful beliefs boast about Because I think a lot of them know that they're not really from these cultures.

A lot of them know that they're not actually from a family that has deep roots within black culture and stuff like that. And that's what you often see by the people who grift on this system. Is they're often not [00:29:00] actually connected to the communities that they claim to represent. And this creates a huge sort of like imposter syndrome.

Where they then make up, they're like, Hmm, what? What's black stuff? I guess it's, it's, it's being bad at science and math. So we should make those the questions on the test. Like what, what, like And when you see people, cause we actually have a lot of like really close black friends who like work to and, and have sort of entered like real elite circles to try to better the black community.

And I'd say the core difference between the black people who don't go crazy about this s**t and the black people I know who do go crazy about this s**t is it's, did they. Actually come from like a discriminated background. Like one who we know, for example, grew up an orphan and was raised in that environment and grew up in like actual poverty.

And he does like really cool stuff was like fixing education systems. Whereas when I think about. You [00:30:00] know, the, the ones I know that have gone the DEI grift route these are individuals who grew up to, like, wealthy parents who, or recent immigrants from, like, royalty in Africa or something, and really have no connection to American black culture, or wanting to improve it outside of how they can utilize it to get money, like this one girl who's like, I used it to raise money for my non profit.

Well, let's see how much of that went to her. You know, that's, that's the way the grift goes.

Note here when you read things that these organizations like what we work really hard for first generation You know college people who came from whatever background you can tell that they are not Actually from these communities and they've just learned to do the grift really well By where they are focusing their efforts and their buy in to the dei stuff Or they might have come from parts of these communities that have built their entire identity around a DEI government welfare grift, which is something that I've also seen.

And a lot of these old people who go [00:31:00] to the like, Met and stuff like this for the yearly gala or whatever, they're frankly too disconnected and bought into like this media lie ecosystem to know how bad the grift has got.

What?

Simone Collins: I think you're right. It's just depressing. But it also feels, you can't help but feel a little smug about it. I mean, this wasn't. A secret society without some flaws and certainly a lot of elitism and now it's experiencing the end result of all that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and the, the cool kids club is now like way more dynamic, way more open, like for the, the cool events that we would be invited to like Hereticon, I think it's the best secret society event that's ongoing right now.

They do it so well. They, oh my gosh, it's incredible. So, but how do you get an invite to Heretic Con? You have to be out there saying interesting, controversial, new ideas, and be bringing them to the scene and [00:32:00] changing the world. And that's like such a better criteria than these older systems. And I really by the way, if you go to Heretic Con again next year, are you gonna get a tattoo this time?

They, they do free tattoos at Heretic Con.

Simone Collins: I mean, I still think you should get the gear tattooed on you.

Malcolm Collins: I'll get the gear tattooed then.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Where, where, where should I get it?

Simone Collins: At your wrist. Wrist?

Malcolm Collins: Do you

Simone Collins: know

Malcolm Collins: how much that

Simone Collins: hurts? Where it hurts the most. Yeah. That,

Malcolm Collins: you are intense. That's where you

Simone Collins: do it.

That's where you do

Malcolm Collins: it. But, you're a typical Puritan,

Simone Collins: Malcolm. You gotta show it.

Malcolm Collins: I gotta show it? I gotta, oh god, you are, you are insane. But, hey, you know, there's, there's, there's, it's a good souvenir from like a hereticon or something like that. God, my whole life without getting a tattoo, am I gonna get one at 38 or something, I guess?

I mean, I'm going to be with you. I don't need to attract any other partners, I guess. Yeah. I

Simone Collins: still would love for someone to explain to me why people get tattoos. That would be helpful.

Malcolm Collins: The last time we were there, they had a stall where you could genetically alter [00:33:00] frogs to glow in the dark. And so we both did like, yeah, it's a

Simone Collins: mega frog embryo.

That was, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it was pretty cool. No, it's like, but you're like, what if people do it? Like the cool secret societies, that's the stuff that's happening. And they genetically

Simone Collins: alter frog embryos and genetically altering frog embryos, you know, eat delicious food, talk with fascinating, smart people. The general premise of Skull and Bones, which I hadn't, I haven't really read much about it.

I didn't know that so much of it was sort of highlighted around getting a job and networking. That in itself makes it to me pretty gross because I am definitely of the belief that you should get your job based on merit and hustle instead of like, Oh, well, I got accepted, accepted into this club and therefore you will hire me.

And I felt the same way about sororities and fraternities, which also often sold it as like, You'll find it easier to get a job. And I just thought that was disgusting. Like who hires someone because they're friends? I mean, that's, that's really an argument against hiring that [00:34:00] person. Because then when you have conflict, or you need to give constructive criticism, it becomes so much harder.

It's just a terrible idea. This, the entire premise of this society is fundamentally unsound.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, I, well, yeah, I, I like that things are changing and that this system has in a way destroyed itself. It was a system based on nepotism and then there's a cult that found out how to hack nepotism networks.

And it is destroying the system and this is why We started an organization deiremediation. org if you need to hire people for one of your orgs to clean out dei you let us know we are a non profit as well. So You can pay us in tax deductible money to come in and fix the, you know, the, the inefficiencies and racism that are affiliated with this, but I not just inefficiencies, mission creep.

Well, let's talk about where the, I mean, you, you and I see the real like secret society networks that are important now, right? And I'd say they generally fall into a few [00:35:00] categories. The EA network, while being a giant peerage network, is still very important. The effective altruist network is probably in terms of like a global influence.

The number one sort of society that you can access the next. Big one is the counterculture network that we're like sort of organizing members of. Like all

Simone Collins: heterodox related things.

Malcolm Collins: Heterodox related things. There's a few others that are matter. Like there's that secret society that I think is still sort of old boy, the Catholic one for and you're getting Catholics promoted within the judge network which is really important and conservatives within the judge network, which is really important.

But even ones like, you know, like the Coke network and stuff like that. I think a lot of them have become less relevant as, as time has gone on because they're not generating new ideas.

Simone Collins: I think there's different types of secret societies. So some are like you could call them resource distribution, secret.

And that's what it seems like Skull and Bones was that was what [00:36:00] the Koch Society was that's like, it's it is of people typically wealthy benefactors deciding. Where to throw their crumbs and playing patronage games and sometimes ego games. You could argue maybe that the Bohemian Grove was a little bit like that because it was supposed to be very, very expensive membership for wealthy people balanced out by either subsidized or free membership for artists.

And so that, that, I think that, that qualifies as well. And then you have. What I would argue are the power broker secret societies. And I think this is where you get like, you know, Sun Valley and all the sort of more exclusive corporate founded retreats plus the heterodox meetings, arguably like a lot of the EA stuff.

It's about, Hey, we want to get these high agency people together because when they talk and when they mix more, they build really cool things and. We, the organizers of the society or conference or retreat series or community like that and want to see more of that and [00:37:00] also personally benefit from it, but there isn't like some, there's no daddy warbucks.

There's no patron per se that runs those communities. In fact, when there is some kind of patron that does start to turn those communities into money grabbing places. Like Sam Bankman Freed did with the Effective Altruist community for a while. I think they degrade significantly because you attract entirely the wrong kind of person.

In fact, that was when you saw the EA community becoming very corrupt, where people were just Vying for attention and privilege to get funding for a nonprofit that basically just funded their salary and lifestyle for them to do research on AI, which basically just meant like pay me a huge salary and I'm going to dick around on the internet all day.

Oh, I'm so good. So I, I would, yeah, I think that's the important distinction here. And clearly Skull and Bones was more for like entitled people who wanted to have their solutions made for them rather than people who [00:38:00] were already building things would always build things and would just Be excited to meet other people who are building things and debate with them and share ideas

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I I think for me the important thing is as this system crumbles because it was never built to be efficient in the first place that For the first wave of defectors or the first few waves of defectors that we've had so far I think it's really important to accept them in um to the to the movement of like the vital society, the ones who are actually taking humanity forwards.

But I think for the later defectors, for the people who defect when it becomes like corporate okay to defect these people need to be sort of permanently frozen out. Because they are bad actors who will turn bad again if given the opportunity and means.

Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: And that's why I agree with creating lists and stuff like that, what the Trump administration is doing.

And I think that other organizations you know, as we go through and we work on this stuff, I think having lists that organizations can share of anyone who's ever [00:39:00] engaged in this sort of activity is really important because we can't allow this to happen again. And, and if. A movement like this based on elitism and systemic racism ever grows again they need to know that they will be destroying their careers when the movement goes.

But I think a lot of these people sort of assume that no backlash was ever possible to the lifestyle that they were Living and, and we can only fight back by making sure that there is actually a punishment so that the next class, the next crop is like, Oh yeah, I see what you're peddling, but I'm not going to be about that.

Simone Collins: Even if there's only short term potential, I still think people are going to go for it. Unfortunately.

Malcolm Collins: Mm.

Simone Collins: Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: We saw this is like, BLM grift and everything like that. Hey, they still got those mansions out of it. I mean. That's their family.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that made it worth it for them.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you to decimum.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

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