[PREVIEW] Santa is a Fat Icon

It’s time for your December Indulgence Gospel. 

Today’s episode is both holiday and sex-themed, which seems right! We’re getting into:

️ How diet culture and anti-fatness show up during the holiday season. Comments from relatives! Fitness equipment as gifts! Matching family PJs! Etc.

️ Our NEW Ask Corinne segment, where Corinne answers your fat sex and dating questions, like: What do you do when certain positions just don’t work for your body?

To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscribe here.

If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Substack. You can also subscribe to Corinne's newsletter, Big Undies, for 20% off using this special link. 

To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.

Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! 

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

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Episode 173 Transcript

Virginia

I’m so excited for Ask Corinne. I’ve manifested this.

Corinne

I need to get back on the apps so I have some more advice to give.

Virginia

For anyone who missed the fat dating episode we did, I personally found it deeply instructive. I think Corinne gives excellent advice. You have continued to give me excellent advice. And so I just really felt like this needs to be a more official part of the Indulgence Gospel lineup.

Corinne

I do love telling people what to do.

Virginia

And you’re really good at it! You’re usually right.

OK, but holiday stuff first. We got many variations of this first question, so I’m going to read one big one—but we’re going to try to speak to everybody who has a relative they have to figure out how to talk to at the holidays.:

How much is too much confrontation at the holidays? My mother-in-law is constantly almond mom-ing in front of my kids. “I’m just going to be a little piggy and get another serving.” I typically confront most of it and it has actually helped. She’s gotten better. But this year we are going to a cousin’s house. Do I stop correcting her diet culture intrusions because we are not at my house? Do I take on the big stuff but leave the rest? Keep my mouth shut? I want to be a respectful guest to the host, but I also want to support and protect me and my kids. How do you balance this?

Corinne

The eternal question! How to deal with your family at the stressful times around stressful topics.

Personally, I would let it go. Or I would have a conversation beforehand. I think you could even frame it as, “I’ve really noticed that you’ve been making an effort to talk less about this, and I’m appreciating it. And I hope you’ll continue that, even though we’re going to be at my cousin’s house.”

Virginia

I love that. Give some positive feedback on the effort that has been made.

I also think you’ve made your point, and she maybe can only get so far. Maybe you’ve gotten what you’re going to get. I always come back to, when it comes to a grandparent saying this stuff or another extended family member saying this stuff in front of your kids— if it feels weird to tackle in the moment, you can debrief with your kids afterwards. You can protect your kids that way by making sure they’re aware of that you don’t agree with these comments, but you don’t necessarily have to be whack-a-mole responding to every instance in the moment.

Corinne

I also think those moments of tension between you and a family member are usually really unpleasant for someone else to witness, so I would maybe just not. I would save it.

Virginia

The other versions we got of this were things like, “How can I get my mom to stop commenting on my dad’s intake?” and, “Is it worth correcting aging parents on their unnecessary descriptor lingo, comments like ‘larger woman’ or ‘Black nurse?’”

Which, like, oh, man. Why do people do that? It’s so, so unnecessary.

Corinne

The dad’s intake one is so interesting, too.

Virginia

I feel like that’s between your parents? I don’t know that it’s your job to be in the middle of that.

Corinne

I want to know if it is bothering your dad or not?

Virginia

You could back him up if he wants to say something. But if he’s choosing not to say something, I don’t know that it’s your place to say something.

Corinne

Maybe ask your dad like, “Hey, does it ever bother you that mom is commenting on your intake?”

Virginia

“And do you want me to say something? Is it helpful if I say something?”

I would really go to your dad for direction there versus taking that on as your own personal project.

Corinne

But I could totally understand if it would be triggering to you to hear your mom commenting on someone else’s intake.

Virginia

Yes. And the unnecessary descriptors. Man, I don’t know. How do we get people to stop doing this?

Corinne

The descriptions that they’re mentioning here, like a larger woman or Black nurse, there’s nothing wrong with those things. But it’s sort of like, what’s the subtext?

Virginia

It’s that confusing thing, because we always say, “Don’t be colorblind! Don’t pretend someone’s not fat if they are.” Let’s reclaim these words. Let’s talk about this.

But then when you’re inserting race or gender or body size, etc into a conversation where the anecdote you’re about to tell me has nothing to do with those descriptors, you’re just bringing in that detail because you’re excited you saw a fat person. That we don’t need.

But how do you explain that nuance? This isn’t you making marginalized groups more visible, this is actually you othering a marginalized person more by needing to identify them in a situation when you wouldn’t say “that thin woman” or “we had this nice white nurse on grandad’s ward.” Or whatever. So that is the difference. But how you start to break that down for someone who’s probably somewhat unconsciously doing this, I don’t know. That’s just going to depend so much on your relationship with that person, and are they open to hearing this kind of feedback?

Corinne

Also with with aging parents, it’s such a fine line between: Are they actually going to be able to change this behavior? Or do you need to take care of yourself or build up some tolerance for stuff that probably isn’t going to change at this point? Not that you shouldn’t have a conversation!

Virginia

Well, just because they’re older, don’t assume they aren’t still capable of learning and growing. We all are capable of learning and growing forever. But if you’re looking for permission to let it go because it lets you have a better, more connected holiday with your family, then I think there’s an argument for that. And I think there’s an argument for no, I’m going to take it on this time and give it a shot.

Corinne

If I was going to take it on, I think I would like ask a question. Like, “Why are you telling me that they’re fat?”

Virginia

What did you mean by that? What is that one you that great line you have that I always go back to? “It’s so interesting…”

Corinne

Okay, I will ask the next question.

Massage for fat people? Being face down on the massage table with big boobs, with massage therapists who don’t have it in mind how uncomfortable that can be. Not knowing how sturdy the table is or how wide the sheets. Besides proactive self-advocacy on all these fronts, have you had any success with massage being wonderful and not stressful as a person in a larger than typical body in a massage therapist wellness office?

Virginia

So I just recently started getting massages again after probably a seven year hiatus. I had really not done it for a long time, and a big part of why I wasn’t doing it was because of concerns like this. And: Will I feel safe being naked with a stranger who’s going to touch my fat body? That is a real thing.

So what I ended up doing was booking someone who several of my friends had had really, really great experiences with. I think word of mouth is super important here. As it happens, my friends are all straight-sized, so they couldn’t weigh in on this part specifically, but they had told me enough about how professional he was and the general dynamic they had with him that I felt pretty confident going in it was going to be okay. And it was.

So I think step one is get a recommendation of someone who other people trust and feel safe with. And then I didn’t do this, but assuming you’ve got that recommendation, you should feel no qualms about emailing or texting ahead of time and saying, “I just want to make sure that your massage table can hold a larger person or X amount of weight.” And ask any other questions that you have.

Corinne

How was the table?

Virginia

I did okay on the massage table, even being face down with big boobs. I can understand why that’s not for everybody, but it was okay. He had some pillow type things. He put one under my shins, which weirdly helped? There are different ways they can adjust you with padding. And I think he had actually done some of that without me even having to ask, which was lovely. That made it a lot more comfortable. So I think just asking those questions up front. If you can’t, if you don’t feel like you can ask those questions up front, then no, this probably is not a person you want touching your naked body is kind of where I land on it.

What about you? Are you a massage person?

Corinne

I’m not a massage person. I’ve had a few massages. I’m super ticklish, so just not always super fun for me. My relevant experience is from getting tattoos, which I do weirdly feel like is sort of similar.

Virginia

I get that.

Corinne

Also because a lot of tattooers use massage tables to give tattoos. But, if there’s something you’re anxious about, you should ask them up front! Like, how much weight does this table hold? Or, “Have you had fat clients before?”

And if you do go forward with it and you’re lying on the massage table, face down with big boobs, feeling super uncomfortable, you should say something!

Virginia

Which is hard! It is a really vulnerable dynamic because you are now naked. And I think we’re so socially conditioned to people please, that it’s really hard in that moment not to want to be like, “it’s fine, it’s fine, everything’s fine.” But the entire point of the massage is for it to be beneficial to you. So if it is uncomfortable and not benefiting you, then you have to say something. Because there’s no reason to be there. That’s the opposite of what that person wants you to get out of that experience!

Corinne

Totally. I also think you’re right that someone with some experience will know how to adjust so it’s more comfortable for you. You’re probably not going to be the first fat person or person with big boobs that this person has ever worked with.

Virginia

Another tip I had is to look for someone who specializes in perinatal massage. Because the last time I did get massages super regularly was during my first pregnancy, when I was having a lot of migraines. You can’t take any good drugs when you’re pregnant, so I was like, I guess we’ll do massage. That massage therapist had a table with an indent for a pregnant belly to go in, it had boobs and a belly, basically, which would be great for a fat person, too!

So that’s something to seek out. They’ve actually thought about how to make it comfortable for bodies that might not be comfortable face down. So that could go a long way towards improving your experience.

Corinne

Totally. That’s smart.

Virginia

Okay, I’m delighted by this next question, although I admit, I don’t know that I understand it, but I’m just going to read it, and we’re going to have thoughts.

How do we feel about Santa being gay? Fat icon or fat stereotype?

Corinne, is Santa gay? Can you confirm this?

Corinne

Is this a typo? Was it supposed to be, how did we feel about Santa being fat? Is Santa gay? Like, what is this?

Virginia

I’m now Googling, is Santa gay? Okay, well, AI says Santa Claus is a fictional character and doesn’t have a sexual orientation like real people.

Corinne

So helpful.

Virginia

I do wonder if this person meant to type—but we know Santa’s fat! How do we feel about Santa being fat?

Corinne

But gay and fat are like one letter apart on the keyboard?

Virginia

Okay, so it’s a typo. We’re fine with Santa being gay, though. This podcast is pro-gay Santa. I just want to say that.

Corinne

Mrs. Claus is a drag queen.

Virginia

I mean, delightful.

Corinne

Santa can definitely be gay, I just wasn’t aware.

Virginia

Did you not get the memo?

Corinne

I didn’t get the memo to the queer community.

Virginia

“Santa is one of us!” Okay, but yes, I think this person meant to say: How do we feel about Santa being fat, fat icon or fat stereotype? And I would say fat icon!!

Corinne

I would say fat icon, too. There are actually not a lot of fat stereotypes around Santa. No one is like, “Oh, Santa, he’s so fat and lazy. He eats too much. Santa needs to go on a diet.” You’re supposed to give him cookies.

Virginia

I guess that’s a stereotype? But it’s not negative. You give Santa cookies because that’s what he expects and deserves. That’s how you say thank you. So it’s encouraging a fat person to eat, which is counter to a diet culture narrative. I mean, there’s the “he laughs with this big bowl full of jelly” thing? But I think that could just be a neutral slash positive description of a fat person laughing.

Corinne

And he does wear a fur-trimmed red velvet suit. So, icon.

Virginia

Another point in the gay column?

Corinne

Maybe fat gay icon.

Virginia

I think Santa is great fat rep. He’s admired. He’s universally beloved. He’s known to be a hard worker. He’s possibly exploiting the elves, but I don’t think that’s related to his fatness. I mean, there’s certainly a question mark about working conditions.

Corinne

Let’s assume the elves are unionized.

Virginia

Okay, then I feel great about all of it. We’ve got pro-union elves and gay Santa. I love it.

Corinne

Okay, great. Next question:

Do you have any favorite food based gifts to give for the holidays?

Virginia

I was thinking about this because I think I want to give some food based gifts this year and I don’t have a go-to. But I do think food based gifts are great because most people don’t want more clutter, and it’s something that gets used up.

Corinne

Yes, I just strongly agree.

Virginia

I think a nice olive oil is good. I’m like, five years late to this trend, but I’m very into the Graza olive oils that come in squeezy bottles, and I feel like they would be a great gift.

Also, is it just me, or is tinned fish having a moment right now?

Corinne

My God. You’re also five years late to that.

Virginia

Well, it’s in like five gift guides in my email right now! Everybody is talking about tinned fish, so clearly that is an option. And I feel like I am both five years late to that trend, and I was eating sardines like a decade ago. So I also am an early adopter on that trend, and it’s weird to me that now it’s like a bougie cool thing to give because I felt like I was sort of odd for eating it?

Corinne

You’re definitely right. Tinned fish has had a renaissance.

Virginia

It’s having a renaissance. The packaging is so cute.

Corinne

I really like giving food gifts, because I think people will use them. I have often given Rancho Gordo beans. I feel like that’s a fun one. Popcorn kernels. My mom always really likes to receive chocolate, so I’m usually trying to find some kind of chocolate caramel thing. I also think it can be really fun to give spices, like nicer spices. There’s that Diaspora Spice company, they have really nice packaging and delicious stuff.

Virginia

Oooh, there’s this spice I put in my pasta sauce that’s kind of my secret ingredient. Like, do I want to say it on the podcast?

Corinne

Yes, I want to know what it is.

Virginia

It’s called African rose rub (similar) and it’s kind of a paprika blend, like a smoky paprika blend. And I just put a little bit in a bolognese or a spicy sausage ragu, along with oregano and your usual stuff. It just adds another little dimension.

Corinne

That sounds really good.

Virginia

That would be a great gift for people who like my pasta sauce because I’ve been guarding that secret with my life. Now it’s out.

Corinne

My family usually just does stockings now, but I’ll often go to the health food store or Whole Foods or something and buy a bunch of little weird supplements and teeny chocolates, or local jam.

Virginia

Jam is a good one.

Corinne

The kind of stuff that you would buy as a treat, but not as an everyday kind of thing.

Virginia

One year, we got given cookie mix and cookie cutters. And it was delightful, because it wasn’t like I had to make it right away. It was a bagged mix, just like the bagged grocery store mix, but it was a great activity to do with my kids. I saved it till we had a snow day, and it was like what are we going to do to fill some time? And having this on hand as an easy, fun activity was delightful. So especially if you’re thinking of a food gift for families, I think a thing they can bake together could be really, really nice.

Corinne

My mom has given my sister baking mixes from King Arthur Flour, there are scones and stuff.

Virginia

Yeah, that’s so nice to have on hand. Like, you probably wouldn’t buy it yourself, but there is going to be some rainy Sunday when you’re like, oh, let’s make scones.

All right, on the food theme as well:

Do you have a favorite Christmas morning breakfast?

Corinne

We always do really big Christmas morning breakfast with my family. The essentials are, I need there to be some kind of breakfast meat. That makes it feel exciting to me, like bacon. Bacon or sausage, or both. We also usually have some kind of grapefruit. My mom likes to do the broiled grapefruit where you put a little sugar on the grapefruit and then broil it so it has, like, a creme brûlée top. And then we usually do waffles. It is really fun. It’s a production, you know? It takes a while, but it’s fun. And you can do toppings, like fruit, chocolate chips, whatever, syrup, whipped cream, if you want.

Virginia

That sounds really delightful. I struggle with Christmas morning breakfast because I host Christmas dinner and obviously have Santa and presents with the kids in the morning. So there’s a lot going on. Christmas Day has many moving parts. And yet, if I don’t eat breakfast, I’m going to be really grumpy. So often what I do, if I manage to wake up before the kids, which obviously doesn’t always happen, but frequently does because I’m such an early riser, I will still go make my smoothie first. Just because I’m like, I need to have my smoothie. I need to know I got some protein in before this craziness starts.

But I have done the tube of cinnamon rolls, like in the can that you pop the can. Because you can stick them in the oven while you’re opening presents, and then they’re ready. Something else I can prep ahead of time and bake that morning is helpful to me. Like, a breakfast casserole type thing, and something you can, bake ahead of time. I mean, in a world where I had way more leisure time than I do, I feel like I would prep breakfast burritos. But then you can just put them in the oven, and that would be really fun. And you could do them Christmas style, that’s very big in New Mexico! The red and green salsa. As I learned that when I visited Corinne.

That would be my dream Christmas morning breakfast. I don’t know that it will happen this year, but.

Corinne

Someday!

Another one about Christmas giving:

What do we think about fitness gear as gifts? Is it passive aggressive/offensive/triggering?

Virginia

This is a good question. I will never forget when I was about 12 or 14 or something—I’m going to throw my family under the bus here—my stepdad gave my mom a bike for her birthday, and she did not want a bike. In fact, he didn’t even get the bike. He just put cash in an envelope for a bike. And said, “this is for a bike,” which is also just like, bad form. And she was not pleased. She did not take it as a compliment. She did not take it as like, oh, what a lovely thing we could do together. I think she just fully rejected it.

Corinne

I mean, good for her.

Virginia

I think it was the right call. I don’t think he made that mistake again. So I think without someone actively soliciting fitness gear, I would not make that the gift.

Corinne

I was also going to say, I feel like it kind of depends on the context. Like, is it the only gift you’re getting them? Like, are you just getting them weights and bike shorts? Are you getting them also chocolate? And I don’t know, I think a lot of that stuff is also so personal that it’s really hard to gift. I wouldn’t trust someone else to pick out gym stuff for me.

Virginia

I wouldn’t know what power lifting shoes you like, unless you told us specifically. Even if someone is super into a sport, A. They probably already have a lot of the gear for it. And B. They have very specific opinions about the gear.

I mean, this is all just making me think of that Peloton commercial. Do you remember that commercial a few years ago? A guy gives the wife the peloton bike and—

Corinne

and she’s happy?

Virginia

She’s super happy about it in the commercial, but basically people like me wrote think pieces about how maybe she did not want to be given more labor to do with her holidays. And then people were like, “No, he’s giving her self-care,” and blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, I don’t know, man. I mean, people love their Pelotons, but I don’t think it should be an unsolicited gift.

Corinne

Agreed. Question for you, Virginia.

Gift Ideas for an eight year old. The eight year old loves to read, can’t do most craft kits and has a fine motor delay.

Virginia

I have raised two children in that vicinity—also readers who are not the craftiest—and I do have some ideas for you.

If this eight year old has not already begun the Wings of Fire series, that would probably be my book rec. It’s that or Warriors. They’re these endless, huge novels. Wings of Fire is about dragons and Warriors is about cat clans. This was the age that my older kid was just powering through these books about warring cats and they’re pretty accessible and fun. And there are graphic novel versions. And I think Warriors has graphic novels, manga, and regular novels. So whatever type of book they’re into, there’s a good entry point. So that would be my book rec.

The thing that’s was the big hit at the seventh birthday, so much so that I will be replicating and expanding upon it for Christmas, is a potion making kit. The one I got is from Amazon, I’m sorry. My seven year old was obsessed with it. They made little potions for everybody in our lives. It’s so cute. It comes with little bottles and you put in water and food dye and glitter and charms. We’ve used up everything that came in that first kit so now for Christmas, I’m going to go to Michaels and make my own and get bigger bottles and bigger things of glitter and put together a whole potion situation. It’s going to be very messy, obviously.

Glitter—well, you may not know this, Corinne, but glitter is a deeply polarizing topic for parents. Because it will never leave you once you have it in your house. But the glitter ship sailed here a long time ago, so I’m embracing it.

And then a board game we’re super into right now is called Goat’s Day Out. I am not the biggest fan of board games with kids, because I don’t like teaching kids to be good losers. I find it annoying how bad they are at losing. It’s just such a learning process to be like, it’s okay that you lost also you’re probably going to lose a lot, because you’re seven and I’m 43. I’m also not going to let you win. But this one is hard enough that we’re pretty evenly matched. The premise is that goats have gotten loose and they’re eating up all the garbage in the streets. So the game is you putting food in your goat’s stomach, and you kind of make a little puzzle. So it’s like light fine motor skills, but not very challenging fine motor skills, but it does work a little bit on that front, if that’s interesting to you. And it’s weirdly charming. The goats are delightful. And it’s funny that they eat hair dryers and stuff. I don’t know, it’s fun.

Then my last suggestion would be some kind of either a wobble board or a hover board. The hover board was the big gift when my older kiddo was eight, and it was the hit of Christmas. But there are also the low tech versions that are just like balance boards that kids really love to stand on.

Yes, I’m very good at shopping for eight year olds. This person was right to ask me.

Corinne

I love it. I’m going to ask you the next one, too.

Size inclusive family pajamas, particularly with youth plus sizes?

Virginia

Okay, before we get into what I found, Corinne, have you ever done the matching family pajama thing? Is this a part of your Christmas life?

Corinne

I’m going to say no. I feel like as kids, sometimes my mom would make us matching pajamas. And then I feel like there was one occasion as adults where my whole family got the same oversized t-shirt. But no.

Virginia

So are you aware of how this has taken over millennial parenting?

Corinne

Oh, well, maybe not. I’ve always been kind of envious of the matching Hanna Andersson thing, but I guess I didn’t know it was a huge millennial thing now.

Virginia

I think Hanna Andersson is definitely the origin story for this. They came out with these family pajama things probably easily 15 years ago or something, and made them really popular. And now it is like kind of a given that you will acquire and assemble your family in matching pajamas. A lot of people give them Christmas Eve, like Santa drops off the pajamas and maybe one present or something, and then that way, you have them to wear that night. Some people give them earlier in the season, which makes more sense, because you can then wear them longer.

I sound like I’m critiquing it, but I have totally done this and bought into it for many years. So I’m not judging it. But, it is one of those moments where I just want to say: It’s okay to step back and consider how useful this tradition is to you and your family.

Because every year, holiday PJs are a big thing on my to do list that actually is a lot of work. It’s hard to find pajamas that are cute enough, that I think my kids will wear, that come in all the right sizes for whichever of the adults want to participate, etc, etc, etc. It’s a lot of holiday magic-making labor that we know mostly only moms are going to execute. I don’t know a single father who has ever said, “You know what I’m gonna do this Saturday is figure out the family holiday pajamas.” Mostly, the dads are either not participating or begrudgingly participating.

So that is my top level rant.

Corinne

So are you doing it this year?

Virginia

Of course, we are doing it.

I suspect this may be our last year, because I do have a middle schooler, and her willingness to participate is a real open question. However, we have a baby niece in the family, and my little baby niece is so cute and I really want a picture of my kids and my niece in matching pajamas. Because I am a product of my culture, and my sister wants it, too. So we figured it out together. It was shared labor between the two moms.

We are doing these Primary pajamas. Primary is one of my recs if you have straight-sized kids, but plus size adults. Their adult pajamas are pretty roomy. I usually wear the XL. I’ve bought the XXL and they were very big on me. And they go up to 3X, but it’s a generous 3X. So Primary would be where I would look for plus size parent pajamas.

However, they do no plus size kids clothing! And in fact, their kids clothing tends to be cut quite narrow, so it’s a garbage option if that’s what you need for kids. And this was the recurring theme everywhere I looked: There are a lot of good options if you have plus size adults and straight sized kids, and there are shit options for plus size kids. Which just makes me really mad about this trend.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s really sad!

Virginia

It sucks. So some other places I found for good plus size options for adults plus the kids are straight size would be Pajamagram, Target has a ton, Walmart has this brand called PatPat that’s pretty cute. Kohl’s had a whole bunch of big and tall men’s pajamas with coordinating families, which is nice, because I think the plus size men’s options tend to be slimmer.

I found literally no brand doing plus size kids holiday pajamas. Even the brands that do plus size kids’ clothing were not doing their holiday pajamas in plus sizes for kids.

Corinne

That’s so sad.

Virginia

It’s so fucked up!! So I was texting with my friend who is a mom of plus sized kids, like, what are you doing? And we were going back and forth. Kohl’s has a nightgown. So for kids who like to wear a nightgown—which is, of course, not every child—but for kids who like to wear a nightgown, there is a cute plaid nightgown.

And I think a nightgown is maybe a better option, because pants are hard to size up because if the waist fits, the length will be wrong. But this nightgown is knee-length, so you could size it up and it’ll just be a longer nightgown, but it won’t be too long on a plus size kid. So I feel like nightgowns are one option.

The other option would be to go for cute holiday pants or leggings, which you could probably get in the regular section and call them pajamas. But this is so much labor. This is so much fucking labor.

I’m so upset about it. Why Old Navy? Why Walmart? Why Target? Lands End! All these brands that do plus size kids clothes are not doing their holiday pajamas in inclusive sizes.

Corinne

I hate that.

Virginia

Yeah, and like, fucking forget Hanna Andersson. Don’t even bother!

Sorry, it’s a depressing answer, I just hate it a lot, but I want it to be better. Or maybe we don’t have to do this anymore! Guys, I’m not doing holiday cards this year. I’m also just saying that.

Corinne

That’s awesome. Good for you.

Virginia

I’ll ask the next question to pick us up.

Advice for getting through the winter doldrums, particularly if you’ve just been depressed trying to do holiday pajamas.

Corinne

Oh, man, this is a tough one. I think the things that actually help me are things that are not always helpful to hear. One thing that always helps me is going to the gym. Sorry.

Virginia

I knew you were going to tell us that.

Corinne

I just, I’m sorry. And I also feel like…Going outside. Even if it’s shitty weather or it’s really cold. Like bundling up, seeing the sky, even if it’s not sunny. Looking at trees, going for a walk. It kind of makes you feel better.

It’s the worst advice.

Virginia

Its so annoying, but it does work.

Corinne

I don’t know. I also think leaning into the coziness! Staying inside, eating soup, watching TV. But when that starts to feel really doldrums, I do think going outside and exercise help. Unfortunately.

Virginia

It’s true. They do. I wish it was all lies, but here we are.

I realized I am systematically fighting winter doldrums through a variety of lighting sources throughout my day. I have recently gotten a sunrise alarm clock.

Corinne

Yes! I have one.

Virginia

It’s great right? I have to wake up super early on the days my kids go to school and it’s going to be pitch black forever, so having my room be light, not having to reach for the light switch. Such a small thing, but so helpful.

Corinne

It makes a huge difference.

Virginia

And then I’ve talked about them before, but we have these little LED candles that I put on the dining room table, little tapers, and so it just like feels a little sparkly. You’re eating dinner at five and it’s pitch black already, but you can have candlelight. You could use real candles, too, if you didn’t have kids and cats, like I do. I’m really into as many opportunities for sparkly light as possible throughout the day. I also have sparkly lights on some of my plants.

Corinne

Oh, that’s cool.

Virginia

I have a tall mass cane tree in the corner that I put sparkly lights on that really helps me. I leave that on all year round, but this time of year, I really appreciate her. And then the other one—this is not useful for everybody—but if you have a fireplace, I really recommend learning to build fires, which I have recently done, and it’s helping my mood quite a lot to be able to build a fire.

Corinne

Yeah, that’s awesome. You could also do outdoor fire pit!

Virginia

Yes! I now feel like I could maybe build a fire in a fire pit. Now that I’ve mastered my fireplace. What am I, some kind of Girl Scout? I’ve never had these skills. It’s super exciting.

So I feel like you just really have to be like an early human and seek out the light source.

Corinne

That’s really good advice. I use candles in the winter and have string lights in my kitchen. I also lean into the hot drinks, like have hot cocoa, tea, soup.

Ask Corinne!!!

Virginia

All right, it is time for our new Ask Corinne segment! Corinne is our resident dating expert. I now have some dating experience… so I might chime in a little bit if I have useful things to say, but this is a Mostly Corinne segment. Okay, first question!

Red flags to look for on profiles that might indicate close mindedness related to fitness or weight? I usually look for how much their profile mentions their own physical fitness, as well as mentioning healthy lifestyle as what they are looking for in a partner. But sometimes it’s hard to know how strict to be on this. Wanting to protect myself while also remaining open. I’m also thinking of whether there are ways to smoke people out prior to the date through asking different questions. My fear is always going on a date and someone being visibly disappointed by my looks and then treating me poorly, which has happened. So I suppose another question is quick exit strategies.

A lot going on here, but I think this is, this is very real.

Corinne

This is so stressful. Like, dating and meeting new people is hard enough without having to worry about this. The labor of trying to figure out what someone else is thinking is so hard.

Virginia

So hard.

Corinne

I feel like the one that I often see where I’m like NOPE is “active.” Even though, like, I probably am an active person?

Virginia

You told us to go to the gym and walk outside when we’re sad, so yes. You are active.

Corinne

But I would never put that in my dating profile! Because it does feel like it’s code for something else.

Virginia

Yeah, if you’re leading with “active” to the point that you’re putting it in your dating profile, you’re telling me this is a huge part of your personality. Which feels revealing to me.

Corinne

It feels like a dog whistle. It feels like “I’m looking for someone who can keep up with me.”

Virginia

I have a strict rule against gym photos on profiles. If I see a gym photo, that’s right up there with the men with fish, I’m swiping past.

Corinne

I definitely have put gym photos in my thing in the past. But it’s different.

Virginia

You do a very cool, interesting thing at the gym, though. Because you do powerlifting.

Corinne

It’s true, it’s not like a mirror selfie.

Virginia

No, I’m talking about the mirror selfie. No one needs to see that. Put that away. That’s just you thought you looked hot.

I mean, I get putting photos where you think you look hot, but it’s telling me you want me to think you spend a lot of time at the gym, and that you’re working out in a way that’s making you hotter. And neither of those things are interesting to me.

Corinne

Yeah, I would also say—and I feel like this is just more like my overall general advice. But if you’re wondering or you’re trying to suss it out, I feel like there’s just no harm in asking directly. Like, you could just be like, “Hey, your profile says that you’re interested in a healthy lifestyle. What does that mean to you?” Or, like, “I noticed this and I’m worried that means you’re fatphobic.”

Virginia

Oh, I love that.

Corinne

Because why not? If they say “yeah, I am,” then you’re like, great I just saved myself some time!

Virginia

Right? I saved myself 15 minutes of going to ice cream with you and realizing you’re an asshole. For people who don’t know, that’s Corinne’s other rule for first dates, you keep it to 15 minutes.

Corinne

That’s not exactly the rule, but okay.

Virginia

They can listen to the episode if they want all the details, but basically, that’s her rule.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! This month we’re talking about… dating while fat!

Corinne

I do think that applies to the second part of this question, which is about quick exit strategies. Because I think, better than having an exit strategy is planning for it to be a short date. Then if it is a short date, that’s fine. And then if you’re like, “let’s do something else after this,” then that’s fun.

Virginia

I totally agree. One thing I am appreciating about online dating—and I say this as someone who has very limited experience and doesn’t have the trauma stories that a lot of people have of having online dated for years. But I really find a dating app to be an effective tool for filtering. You can just ask things very bluntly, and say very clearly what you need. And if it doesn’t work for the person, then great, they don’t exist to me anymore. Like, there’s something extremely liberating about that.

Corinne

Yeah, and I think it feels less scary to have that confrontation or conversation over text or messaging versus face to face.

Virginia

Yeah, oh my God. I want to throw up trying to do it in person, but over text, I’m just like, okay, bye! It’s so easy. Why be nervous about talking to a stranger on the Internet? I mean, I guess that’s my whole job, so maybe I’m less nervous about it than other people. But what do you have to lose?

Corinne

You’re equally as much looking to find someone who you want to spend time with as who wants to spend time with you. So that kind of person isn’t a good fit anyways!

Virginia

Yeah, they are not for you, and that is fine. You will find people who are for you.

I will say, though, on the exit strategies, one thing I have realized is that it can be tricky to find the words to leave if you’re not having a good time.

This person is concerned that you’re gonna get on the date and someone’s going to be visibly disappointed or gross to you. And in that case, I think I’d have fewer reservations about just being like, “Okay, I’m going to leave now. This is not great.” And like, I don’t care about their feelings. But do you have any good go-to lines when you’re like, I need to wrap this up. Maybe they’re not being like a total asshole, but you’re getting the vibe, and you’re like, “This is not going to be good.” How do you how do you extricate?

Corinne

Um, well, I have some tips, but also, I’m trying to NEVER put myself in that situation, you know? I think it can be really nice to talk on the phone before you go on a date, which I know it’s terrifying. I know it’s so horrible and scary, but I feel like on the phone you can tell sometimes. Like, oh, it’s going to be easy to talk to this person, versus in a way that you can’t tell over text.

However, if you do find that yourself in that situation, I think one thing you can do that is a little sneaky maybe would be like, “Um, well, you know, it’s getting late, I’ll let you go,” or something. Making it sound like it’s their idea.

Virginia

Oh, that’s good.

Corinne

I also think if it’s really bad, you can just be like, “I want to go home. I’m going to leave.”

Virginia

I don’t want to be here with you anymore, so I’m going to go be elsewhere where you are not.

Corinne

You’re allowed to say, “I’m tired, I’m going to go home.”

Virginia

You are allowed to say that!

Corinne

And you can say, “I had a really good time, but I’m going to go home.” Like, you can lie. It’s fine to lie. You can also say, “I’m not having a good time I’m going to go home.” I don’t know. I think people come up with stuff like, like, have a friend call you 15 minutes in so if you need an excuse.

Virginia

To check in.

Corinne

But just do what you need to do. If you need to leave, just say you need to leave.

Virginia

I’ve definitely defaulted to being very nice in order to leave, which, especially for women dating straight men, sometimes feels necessary from a safety perspective. So I’ve definitely been like, “Oh yeah, we’ll definitely do it again! So great. You’re so great. That’s wonderful. Okay, bye.”

And then the only thing about that is you have to be ready to use your words in text the next day when they’re following up. And that’s when I’ll be like, “That felt like a one time thing for me, but it was so nice to meet you.” And just don’t engage past that. Honestly, most guys have been like, “Wow, thank you for telling me and not just ghosting.” But I haven’t been able to bring myself to say that in person because it feels too scary.

Corinne

I think that’s fair. The other thing I think about is, like, if the roles were reversed, if I was on a date with someone who was having a really bad time and just trying to leave, I would so much rather that they just leave. I don’t want to be keeping someone in a place that they don’t want to be. When you’re just getting to know someone, your ego isn’t going to suffer such a huge blow if they’re like, hey, I’m not enjoying this.

Virginia

It’s going to sting a little bit, but it’s going to be okay.

Corinne

You can recover.

And I think at this age, we’ve all been in enough situations that we don’t want to be in that we’re not trying to put that on someone else.

Virginia

For sure. Just to bring it back to the whole fatness of it all, if you feel like the reason it’s not going well is because someone is not appreciating your body… you just don’t need that. You don’t need that. You don’t need to conform or try to be different for them. You just don’t need that. It’s not worth it. Because there’s no way that’s going to improve.

Corinne

Yeah. You don’t need to convince someone.

Virginia

No, no, absolutely not. That’s enraging to me that you would be put in that position.

I’m very curious for your notes on this next one. This is a great question. This person wrote,

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable because certain sex positions are uncomfortable or not doable for me due to my belly. I’m wondering how to navigate this and whether there are resources for fat sex.

And we also got a related question about fat friendly positioning aids for sex, which I’m assuming might be one strategy you would employ here.

Corinne

Yes. Well, my advice for the sex positions that are uncomfortable or not doable for you due to your belly would be to not do those positions.

Virginia

Yes, don’t do things that are uncomfortable.

Corinne

If you’re doing something that’s uncomfortable, you should definitely say something. And again, I would say, imagine the roles are reversed. If you’re having sex with someone and they’re uncomfortable, you would really want to know! Like, that’s not a good situation for anyone to be put in.

Virginia

Yeah, agreed.

Corinne

So I think you have to speak up.

I did just discover there’s a podcast called Fat and Fucked which I have only listened to a tiny bit of, but they have fat people on and talk to them about sex. Marina from Peridot Robes has been on, and so has Caleb Luna, Dr Chairbreaker and I’m assuming that they probably have a lot of good advice. I think one of the episodes talks about positioning aids, but I haven’t listened to enough to really know yet.

Virginia

I think what you’re saying about it really coming down to communication with your partner is super smart. And I think too: Don’t silo this off into something that you feel like you can’t speak about. In order to have good sex, you need to have good communication about all of the things. And just I would hope you would feel comfortable being like, “I don’t like doing…” whatever sex act you’re not that into. Or, “I do like this. I hope we do more of that.” I think you can just matter of factly say, “This position is not going to work for me.” Or, “I really like it better when I’m in this position.”

Because your partner also should really want you to be having a very good time, like a really great time, and so they would only want to do the things that are going to feel very great for you, and not anything where you’re going to be uncomfortable.

Corinne

Yeah. There are all kinds of reasons that people don’t want to do certain things, and not just because of bellies or whatever. You’re not the only person who has preferences about positions or can’t do certain positions. Everybody has certain preferences. It’s fine.

Virginia

You are entitled to your preferences, and you don’t need to apologize for them, or feel like you need to compensate in some way. Whoever you’re sleeping with is very lucky to be sleeping with you! That’s how I feel.

Well, that was pretty fun. Thank you for tackling more sex and dating questions for us.

Corinne

Yeah. Going to have to do some more research.

Virginia

Slide into Corinne’s DMs, friends.

Butter

Virginia

Since we were just doing a spicy conversation, I’m going to recommend a spicy and seasonally appropriate book trilogy, which is the books by Julie Murphy and Sierra Simone. The first one is called Merry Little Meet Cute. The second one is called Holly Jolly Ever After, and the new one that just came out is called A Jingle Bell Mingle.

They are all very spicy, open door romances. And the premise is there’s a town in Vermont called Christmas Notch, where they shoot Hallmark Christmas movies, but a porn company takes over, and there’s various plots where now the porn stars are in the Hallmark movies, or the Hallmark stars are in the porn. There’s porn Hallmark crossover, basically. So most of the characters are porn stars or members of a boy band. It’s a lot. It’s a rich world. It’s very queer friendly. I mean, the primary romances are heterosexual, but the sex is definitely not vanilla, straight person sex. And it’s whimsical and charming, and the Christmas stuff is funny, and their writing is so smart and funny. And I think all three female protagonists are fat.

Corinne

Wow, that’s cool.

Virginia

Well, Julie Murphy is going to write fat characters. I mean, that’s what she does. Fat positive, no weight loss, just hot fat people having great Christmas porn sex.

Corinne

Wow, amazing.

Virginia

Why didn’t they ask me for a blurb? Seriously, that was so good.

Corinne

New career goal, blurbing fat romance books.

Virginia

I wish they would write another one. I think they just finished the trilogy. There are some novellas they did online, too, that I really found that go with that. It’s a whole world.

What about you?

Corinne

I have recently really gotten into quilting. I took a quilting class here with one of my friends, and I just have spent a lot of time listening to audiobooks and quilting.

I’m not necessarily recommending that everyone get into quilting, but I think having a craft or hand activity while listening to an audio book is just such a nice way to pass time. I could see puzzling, doing a puzzle while listening to an audiobooks. But the combo of something to do with your hands and something to listen to I really enjoy. I I sped right through the Fourth Wing and A Court of Thorns and Roses.

Virginia

I do it in the summer with gardening. Gardening is a great combination. In the winter with puzzles. I’m not doing any kind of crafty things at the moment, but puzzles, for sure. And I love that you’re quilting. That’s really fun.

Corinne

It is really fun.

Virginia

I’m going to throw in a little bonus bButter. I just remembered one other thing I wanted to talk about that is not sexy at all, but is helpful to us at this time of year. I am getting over a terrible cold where I lost my voice for five days, because that’s what I do with my children’s germs and my real salvation this cold was the Vick’s Vapo shower tablets.

Corinne

I’ve always wanted to try those!

Virginia

I really recommend them. Really helpful if you are in the terrible coughing fit day, also with the terrible congestion. You just throw it in the shower—I mean, you still need to take all the regular medicine. Don’t get me wrong, this isnt going to replace anything. But it was definitely like, oh, I can breathe for a few minutes. Even a few minutes after the shower. The shower tablets, they’re great.

Well, this was a great episode. I feel like this was such a fun holiday romp for us. Burnt Toasties, we are very grateful for you, and this has been a very fun year of making this podcast. So we hope you have amazing holidays of whatever variety you celebrate or don’t.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!