Love Beyond Monogamy

This week we’re celebrating Brian’s new book, “Love Beyond Monogamy,” which comes out this month! In this book, he explores the themes of polyamory, spirituality, and the importance of love in various forms. Brian shares insights on how the book addresses both monogamous and non-monogamous audiences, emphasizing the sacredness of ALL relationships. The conversation also touches on the societal stigmas surrounding queerness and non-monogamy, and Brian reads an excerpt from the book that illustrates his perspective on spirituality and connection. This book is not just for poly folks or queer folks, it has so much for everyone. 

 

Takeaways

• The book is about polyamory and spirituality.
• It addresses love in all its forms, not just romantic.
• Spirituality is a key theme in understanding relationships.
• The book aims to celebrate connections beyond monogamy.
• Brian emphasizes the importance of pre-orders for authors.
• Polyamory is often misunderstood as solely about sex.
• The book is for both monogamous and non-monogamous readers.
• Brian shares personal experiences with queerness and spirituality.
• The book includes a reading about finding God in community.
• Brian hopes the book will serve as a healing balm for readers.

 

Chapters

(01:17) Exploring the Essence of the Book

(04:57) The Role of Spirituality in Relationships

(08:24) Reading Excerpt: The Polyamorous God

(13:11) Dreams and Aspirations for the Book

(15:43) The Gifts of Polyamory

(21:15) Addressing Skepticism Towards Polyamory

(24:26) Logistics and Upcoming Events

Resources:

• Get Brian’s book, Love Beyond Monogamy: How Polyamory Can Enrich Your Spirituality, Faith, and Relationships
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

 

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to The Queer Theology Podcast. This is a conversation I have been very much looking forward to because today we are gonna talk all about Brian’s new book, Love Beyond Monogamy, which comes out on September 18th. So as you are listening to this, if you’re listening to it the day it comes out or around the day it comes out, there is still time to pre-order.

(55s):
And I, I just wanna say, I, I know we’ve said this a million times, we’re gonna keep saying pre-orders are so, so, so, so important, especially for books from marginalized authors. So if you even feel like you might have the most passing of interest In this book, go and pre-order it, it would also be great if you could recommend that your local library picks up a copy. And also that your local bookstore stocks it. We love supporting indie bookstores, so order it from there. And today we’re gonna, we’re gonna kind of dive into to talking about this book. So Brian, I wanna start with probably every author’s worst nightmare of a question, which is like, if you had to describe this book in just a couple of sentences for folks that maybe this is the first time they’re hearing about it, they don’t really know what it’s about.

(1m 47s):
Like what is this book and who do you think it’s for? Yeah, when I stood out to write the book, I set out to write a book about polyamory in spirituality, And I called it Love Beyond Monogamy. And then when I finished the book, so then in my mind I was, I was sort of like focusing on like the beyond monogamy part of it. And then when I finished the book, I realized that it was like, yes, about like filter through the lens of polyamory, non monogamy, but it was really a book about love and all of the different ways in which love can be present in our lives. And so this is a book not just for non monogamous audiences folks, but for monogamous audiences folks as well. And it’s a book not just for spiritual or religious folks, but for non-religious folks as well.

(2m 32s):
It’s really a way, sort of like pulling upon the wisdom of both polyamory and spirituality to look at the ways in which like all of our various relationships and connections in our lives past, present, and future can be deeply meaningful. The word that I would use for that as like sacred, but you can use whatever word sort of resonates for you. And so honoring, you know, long-term commitments, but also honoring one night stands and casual encounters and not feeling like we have to cut off ourselves from our exes or, or draw divisions between friend and family. And sort of like booking, just like letting love be bigger than you imagined. Hmm.

(3m 13s):
And you know, there have been a lot of books, it seems coming out right around now, polyamory and non-monogamy, and I’m, I’m curious, you know, what, what you think sets your book apart. Like why is your book different from what is has already been published? And you know, we’ve seen some glimpses at at stuff that is coming out and I’m, I’m curious how, how you think your book is set apart. Yeah, I think there’s two ways. One of the big ways is, it’s sort of a cliche in polyamory nom monogamy circles to say, you know, you might be thinking when you hear polyamory nom monogamy, you might be thinking all about sex parties and throuple like, and it, it’s like, it’s really not about sex.

(3m 55s):
It’s about shared calendars and processing lots of feelings and, and all of that. And like, yeah, that can be part of it, but like, it also is for many people a lot of the time also about sex. And so this book like does not shy away from the reality that like sex is for many people a part of the nonmonogamous experience, but not in a like salacious way. It says that also the sex is also special, the sex is also sacred and all the different ways that folks form family and friendship and community and Relationships to partnerships, like they can all be special. And so it’s sort of looking at, it’s a very sort of like sex positive, king conclusive version of non monogamy.

(4m 43s):
And then of course, like, it just like touches upon spirituality. Er Winston, one of the hosts of the multi podcast and in author like in her own right in her sort of like review of the book, she, she pointed out that most books sort of like dance around the topic of like religion or spirituality. And this sort of obviously deals with it head on. And I really try to make it such that if you’re like a devoutly religious person, you’re like a devout Christian, like this book is gonna resonate with you. And if you’re like, no, no, I’m spiritual but not religious, I think this I’ve, you know, it’ll also be applicable to you. And even if you’re like decidedly like a secular humanist or an atheist, the way that I talk about religion and spirituality is such that I think you’ll find resonances there as well.

(5m 24s):
And so it’s, it’s really about not just, it’s like not a practical how to do polyamory, but the sort of a celebration of all the different ways that all of our different types of connections can be like deeply meaningful. And so it’s a celebration of, of love and connection in all its various forms. Why, why was it important for you to, to pull on this thread of, of spirituality in the book? I mean, for me as a queer man, I know that my queerness was like so stigmatized growing up. It felt like such a point of shame and a place where I didn’t fit in. And I at some point sort of intellectually knew that that wasn’t true, but sort of knowing something in your head and feeling it in your body or two different experiences and it took me a long time to get to a place where I like knew in my body that queerness was good.

(6m 18s):
And I had a similar experience all over again when it came to non-monogamy where I sort of like, I had read the books about like how to do it And I like read the research about, you know, the existence of non-monogamy in other animals and humans, other human societies. And so I sort of intellectually knew that monogamy could be like a good and ethical thing, but it was like easy to sort of like feel like I wasn’t living up to society’s expectations. The gay movements like gay, you know, the gay lesbian movements like ideal of what a gay relationship is supposed to look like, that might me, maybe I was missing out on something or I just like had internalized a lot of the messages from our mono normative culture. And so then again, sort of the distinction between knowing something in my head and feeling in my body, it took a little bit of time to get there.

(7m 3s):
And I think that for me, pulling on this like thread of faith, spirituality, religion is not about like trying to against people that you can be polyamorous and go to church. So like obviously you can be polyamorous and go to church. I know lots of church calling polyamorous people, including the increasing number of, of polyamorous like pastors and and rabbis. But for me it was about like taking all of those messages that told me the ways that I was forming relationships were less than, and not just not only rejecting those but replacing like proactively replacing those with positive messages that celebrated the special gifts that nom brought into my life. And by calling that deeply meaningful and particularly special And I think like sacred is just like another snappy way of saying that, you know, Paul Tillek talks about God as being one’s ultimate concern.

(7m 59s):
He was a Christian, writer, researcher, academic, and Rabbi Arab Joshua Heschel talks about awe and wonder and radical amazement being sort of at the heart of a spiritual person’s orientation towards the divine. And so like that’s the type of faith and spirituality that I’m getting at that like the divine is already present in and amongst the ways that we love and fuck. And like really honoring that was a key part of like believing in my body like, oh no, this is not just like a good thing, like an okay thing, but an actually like a good thing and a positive way of relating. Okay, before we go any further, I’m wondering, Brian, would you read a portion of the book for us to give people a taste of, of what this book is like?

(8m 44s):
Yeah, sure. Let me find a spot. Oh actually there is a spot that talks actually about sort of God and what God is or is not and and sort of maybe we’ll tie into the conversation that we just were having. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll read that section. This is from the chapter called The Polyamorous God. Whenever I’m at a dance club with my queer friends, I like to take a break and grab some water and fresh air. When I return to the dance floor before jumping back into the action, I linger a little on the edge, I gaze out on the floor and spot my friends. They’re dancing not just with their partners but also with their friends. I watch them shower each other with physical affection, hugs and kisses, winks and nods, silly faces and singing along pinch cheeks even making out casually they throw their arms around each other and hugs and embraces while they ebb and flow.

(9m 28s):
Dancing in a circle, grinding against each other, weaving in and out, finding new friends to hug and sing along with and even to kiss. If you squint your eyes just right, you can see the Holy Spirit right there on the dance floor of a queer club. In these moments, my intense focus on my friends and the strangers who fill the dance floor, my intentional remembering of all the people who have danced to music just like this for ages and ages, my appreciation for just how precious it is that we can live and dance and flirt queerly and nom monogamously in public safely. It is awesome. I am full of awe. I have this intuitive sense that I could see God on the dance floor of queer clubs for years before I read the works of Abraham Joshua Heschel for Heschel, our perception of awe and wonder are deeply intertwined, synonymous even with our experience of the divine.

(10m 12s):
And I asked for wonder, a spiritual anthology he wrote And I quote awe as an intuition of the dignity of all things. A realization that things are not only what they are, but also stand however remotely for something supreme awe as a sense of transcendence for the reference everywhere to a mystery beyond all things. It enables us to perceive in the world intimations of the divine, to sense the ultimate and the common and the simple to feel in the rush of the passing, the stillness of the eternal. What we cannot comprehend by analysis we become aware, become aware of in awe. And I don’t know how to define the nature of God. I can’t put God in a bottle or under a microscope. I can’t measure God with a machine. Would it be like the ones the scientist, the Scientologists use?

(10m 55s):
Surely not. There’s nothing in what we know about the universe and we know a lot even there was, even though there’s a lot we don’t understand to suggest that there is a conscious outside entity that interferes in our affairs to bend or break the laws of nature to guide the course of human affairs. God did not give you that touchdown or clear skies on your wedding day or save your ant from cancer. And if God did, what would it say? But all the people who didn’t make the touchdown, who had rain on their wedding day, who died from cancer, but I meet God on the dance floor every time I go to a queer queer club. Many of my friends say that God helped rescue them from clutches of devastating addiction. I, by myself am not God. I have stood on protest lines, had vigil held vigils and gone toe to toe with a virulently anti L-G-B-T-Q, religious leaders to proclaim the good news of the queer gospel.

(11m 41s):
And I felt something in my bones. Jesus says in Matthew 18 that where two or more three are gathered, there he is. Two, when people believe in something together and come together for a common cause, something happens that is greater than the sum of its parts, something divine happens in community. I don’t believe that there’s a conscious force outside the universe bending to its will, bending it to its will. And yet I believe that quote, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice and quote as Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Said, paraphrasing Theodore Parker, not because an outside force bends it, not because it must bend, but because we bend it. I believe that love wins and justice prevails not because of puppet master on high decrees that it must, but because something in our very nature is primed for love and justice.

(12m 27s):
Because something that you can feel even if you can’t quite measure happens when humans come together, when we help each other, when we do what is right, when we are willing to sacrifice for a higher cause, whatever that is, that connection, that longing, that energy, that urge, that which draws us outside of ourselves, that which courses through us with the same energy that is spent of coursing through the universe since the Big Bang, that which is much like light, which is somehow both a particle and a wave. Two things at once. It is exactingly precisely physical right down to the atoms that make us up. And it is also completely unmeasurable, but no less real spiritual, we might say. That is what humans have throughout the ages have called God.

(13m 9s):
And I believe that God is within and among us and for us. Beautiful. Thank you for, for sharing that. I’m curious what your kind of biggest dream is for this book. Oh, what a question. I mean, some total stranger on Good Reads left a review and part of it said, Murphy’s writing is to love what the ethical slut is to sex a paradigm shifting classic. And I am honored and humble that some stranger that I don’t know thinks that.

(13m 52s):
And so like I, if I like, I just wanted to reach everyone who needs to hear it. I think that that in a world that is increasingly torn apart and fractured and fragmented, I would like this book to be a healing bomb that says we are stronger together. And like that is yes, about like the ways in which we relate sexually and romantically to one another. But for me the book is like not just about sex and Relationships, it’s really about drawing the circle wider and imagining a love that is bigger and that encompasses our friends and our neighbors and our coworkers.

(14m 38s):
One in one part of the book I I talk about like, I think that polyamorous polys are really sort of beautiful models of communal care and community and mutual aid and support and like the way we sort of take care of partners, of partners, of partners is like really beautiful. And also if we only limit that to people that we want to have sex with and the people that we wanna have sex with, want to have sex with, we just end up reproducing desirability politics and racism and sexism and pat phobia and, and wines that divide us. And so I would like to sort of take all of the best practices from polyamory and merge those together with all the highest ideals of faith and spirituality.

(15m 21s):
And I think that together that phone forms like a potent elixir that it, like I would like to sort of transform all of our communities and to sort of not be, to learn to practice taking care of one another, to learn to feel hard feelings, uncomfortable feelings and not be overcome by them. And that is like a practice that serves you when you’re like thinking about your partner sleeping with another person. And it also is a practice that serves you when you’re thinking about like the coworker that’s annoying you, that it’s also a practice that serves you. Like when you see a person who is unfamiliar and not like you on the street corner and you decide to be trusting rather than afraid. And so like, yeah, I think I would like it to transform the ways in which that we relate to ourselves and our sexual romantic partners, but also I think I would like it to sort of cast, cast a bigger vision for like the way of the world to be.

(16m 13s):
Yeah. I I feel like you And I have always said that our work from the very beginning was was about like what gifts, queerness, and transness have to offer the church in the world, right? That it’s, that it’s always been about focusing on that giftedness and also I I am struck by like queerness and transness and polyamory shouldn’t just be about like what non-queer and non-trans and non poly people can get out of it, right? Like, and so I I I think that there’s a, there’s a line here that we’re walking with this conversation even about like there’s so many gifts, right?

(16m 54s):
That that poly lives and loves have to offer and teach non non-poly folks. And, but I’m curious about like, can you talk just, just for a minute about like what I don’t know the cel celebration of, of like polyamory, like you’ve already hinted at this, but, but it’s been about like, well it’s it’s about more than just that, but so I like just yeah, sell us, sell us on polyamory for a minute, I guess. Yeah. So I think that like all of what I just said, I think also applies to non-monogamous folks because I think sometimes it’s easy for us even as we practice non monogamy to still internalize all the things that the world has said about us.

(17m 36s):
Yeah, I’m thinking about like in my coaching practice, I work with a lot of people who are in the process of opening up a like existing up until now monogamous audiences relationship. And I often hear from them is like, we just want an open relationship. We don’t want polyamory that like polyamory feels scary And I understand where it comes from. It comes from this place of like somehow polyamory when you add in like feelings feels like threatening to the existing relationship or they imagine polyamory means I have to have another co-equal partner and that that is like somehow a demotion of the existing partner or, or whatever it might be, right?

(18m 18s):
And then like they’ll be going at it for a while and it’s like, oh, well you’ve been hooking up with the same person somewhat consistently for like six months now. Like presumably you have, you’re not a sociopath. Like you have like some amount of feelings for this person, right? That like the line between just an open relationship and polyamory is actually quite blurry. Like what is the difference between someone that you hook up with a friend with benefit and like a partner, lover, boyfriend, spouse, right? It’s really all about how you choose to describe yourself in your relationships. And so like I’m not here to like force anyone to use the word polyamory to describe themselves, but in one of the opening lines of the book, I say at it’s roots polyamory comes from a Greek and a Latin root Paul, meaning many Anne Marie, meaning loves many loves.

(19m 6s):
We all have had many loves. Like even if you’re monogamous audiences, like most people have had at least one romantic relationship before the one that they’re presently in. Certainly if you include non types of romantic love, like we already all have lots of different types of love. And so part of the book is saying like, you don’t have to be scared of the connections that fall outside of sort of your one and only. And if you’re someone who is in a couple a diad that that is like meaningful to you. I’m not, I’m not here to sell you on suddenly becoming being in a triad and if you’re monogamous audiences, I’m not gonna to sell you on becoming polyamorous. But I think that there is like some value in loosening up those distinctions between there’s like me and my one and only and it’s us against the entire rest of the world and saying like, what happens if I honor all of these other connections in my life, life as meaningful?

(19m 60s):
Even if it’s like we are kinky hookups and we meet once a month to have kinky sacks and like that’s the extent of it. I think that like there’s, there’s like some real beauty in being like, and also he’s special to me and also this connection is like meaningful and also I am enriched because of this person in my life. I can think of multiple people in my life who I’ve only ever had kinky sex with and also like they transformed me also just as much as long-term partners of mine have had of mine have. And so like I think that there’s like a real power and beauty and like naming all the different connections that we have as special and not being afraid of that. And so I think also if you’re someone who’s like on board with a nom monogamy, but maybe polyamory scares you, I think that like this book is not setting out to convince you to be polyamorous, but I think it will sort of like demystify what polyamory like could be for you.

(20m 53s):
And there’s also good section In this book about commitment and covenant And I think there’s like some real wisdom about whether you’re polyamorous or open or monogamous audiences. I think it’s important that you proactively choose that for yourself rather than just take it on as a default. And really you’ve got to like, in order, you have to be able to say no in order for consent to be present. Like we recognize that when it comes to sex, right? Like if you can’t say no, like you actually can’t consent to it. And so I think similarly, like if you can’t say no to monogamy, did you like really choose it? And so really earnestly putting all the options on the table and saying, this is what I want, this is like what works best for us in this moment is so much more powerful than just sort of being like, well, I have to be monogamous audiences.

(21m 41s):
I’ve always have been monogamous audiences. My partner’s just some monogamy, so I just have to accept it. And that is like also some wisdom that we can apply to our relationship with the divine and or with our spiritual communities that like it’s important that those commitments being just as intentionally chosen as well and have a whole section on making commitments with the divine and your spiritual communities in there as well. I’m, I’m curious, there might be some folks listening who are just like not sure about ethical non-monogamy or polyamory maybe, maybe from theological reasons, maybe from past relational reasons, maybe just ’cause like it feels scary, overwhelming, icky, like insert whatever here.

(22m 33s):
I know that this is not a book about how to, and it’s also not about a book about like why, why people should consider this, okay. Quote unquote. Okay. Yeah. But I’m curious like how would you answer that question? Would you answer that question if someone was like, is this a book for me? Yeah, I mean I actually address that in, I want to say like the intro or the first chapter that’s sort of like, as you read through the book, you will notice that I don’t like go through a chapter in verse defense of polyamory non monogamy.

(23m 14s):
And I don’t say, here are all of the arguments that are sort of against polyamory, non monogamy. And I’m gonna sort of like give them a debate club rebuttal to them because I think doing so cheapens this sort of like beautiful love and commitment and connection that we have and also like it’s an a historical position like most animal species are not monogamous audiences. Like non-monogamy is present in basically like every human culture in many human cultures, non-monogamy was like the norm and or celebrated. So like actually monogamy is sort of like the unnatural way of being, which I don’t mean that, I don’t mean unnatural in sort of like a bad way, but like you have to choose to be monogamous audiences and most people continue to experience sexual attraction to people who are not their partners.

(24m 5s):
And then they, they like choose to not act on that. And if those are your, there’s a way that you can sort of like make that hot and sexy, right? Like, but like if, if you choose to, like, that’s great, but it’s like not actually quote unquote like natural. And so like if anything like the monogamous audiences, you be the ones defending themselves. So I think like that’s my cheeky answer to it. But what I say in, in that section of the intro or the first chapter is that like, I think that through all of the examples of myself, my friends, my clients research from polyamory, nom monogamy and relationship wellbeing combined with sort of like the stories and the ways in which we like ways integrate and see ourselves in scripture and in our faith traditions. I think that sort of like the goodness of non-monogamy and polyamory will become like evident to you by the end of the book.

(24m 54s):
And so in that sense, like the book is just like such a celebration of all different ways of connecting beyond monogamy that I think if you’re sort of on the fence about like whether it’s like quote unquote, okay, as long as you’re willing to sort of like go in it with eyes open and heart open, I think that, I think you will walk away convinced maybe not that it’s right for you, but you could be able to see the beauty in it for other people. I know that you’ve got a couple of pre-order bonuses for folks that pre-order the book, and so if folks are interested in grabbing one of those, where is the best place for them to do that?

(25m 34s):
Yep. You go to my website, which is, this is bgm.com/book. I’m also, this is bgm on all the social medias. It’s one, one phrase for everywhere. This is bgm.com/book. We’ll have links to all of like the major online places to buy the book from, as well as a few of my favorite local spots to order from. You can get it from literally anywhere books are sold. That page will also have a link to submit and claim the bonuses. I’m gonna send out some stickers that are designed by some queer artists and you also get some like digital resources around both relationships and spirituality. And if you’re interested in some more personal and more sexy slash scandalous reflections, I’d be happy to add you to my close friends on Instagram as well.

(26m 17s):
So all that is that, this is bgm.com/book And as a reminder, this book comes out on September 18th. I, it’s such a needed and exciting book. I’m so, so thrilled. I have pre-ordered my copy. I’m very excited to get my hands on it and, and dive into it. I also know that you’ve got a couple of launch events for folks that are on, on the east coast at this precise moment that is where the launch events are happening. So where, can you share a little bit more about those events? Yeah, if you are in or near or able to get to New York City, I would love to have you at the sort of like official release party.

(26m 60s):
It’s Friday, September 19th at Judson Memorial in New York City. That’s in the evening, I believe doors will open at six 30. We’re still at the time of this recording nailing down the logistics all. I’ll also like, make sure that this is bgm.com/book has a link to RCP for that. It’s free all, they’re welcome. Bring your friends and your partners and your metamours and your parents, whoever you wanna come with can come, I’m working on an event in DC at some point TBD and I’m also working on an event in Los Angeles, also TBD potentially in early October. So if you are are in one of those places, add join the mailing list.

(27m 42s):
Or on that page I’ll put a little, like, bring me to your city and I’ll start collecting locations and email addresses with folks in other cities. And then like relatedly, if you’re at a church or a synagogue or a school or a bookstore and you would like me to come do a book event in your city, if you and your folks can get me there, I will. I’ll come for for free. So just reach out. Yeah, so once again, Love Beyond Monogamy by Brian G Murphy comes out on September 18th. Pre-order your copy, get it, get one for your friends, get one for everyone in your life. It’s gonna be a beautiful book and you’re gonna wanna get it as soon as it comes out.

(28m 22s):
Ryan, thank you for this conversation and we’ll see you all next week. Thanks much. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.

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