Sean Illing talks with John McWhorter, linguist, New York Times columnist, and author of Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America. They talk about the effects of modern antiracism, why McWhorter compares it to a religion, and the societal implications of the way we talk — and don't talk — about racism.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), Interviews Writer, Vox

Guest: John McWhorter (@JohnHMcWhorter), author

References: 

• Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America by John McWhorter (Portfolio; 2021)
• How to Be an Antiracist by Ibram X. Kendi (One World; 2019)
• White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism by Robin DiAngelo (Beacon; 2020)
• “What Hope?” by John McWhorter (New Republic; Aug. 10, 2010), a review of Race, Wrongs, and Remedies by Amy Wax (Rowman & Littlefield; 2009)
• “The Case for Reparations” by Ta-Nehisi Coates (The Atlantic; June 2014)
• The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks by Randall Robinson (Plume; 2001)
• “Alison Roman and Chrissy Teigen’s feud is about more than selling out” by Alex Abad-Santos (Vox; May 11, 2020)
• “Professor Not Teaching After Blackface ‘Othello’ Showing" by Colleen Flaherty (Inside Higher Ed; Oct. 11)
• “The Middle-Aged Sadness Behind the Cancel Culture Panic” by Michelle Goldberg (New York Times; Sept. 20)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall
• Vox Audio Fellow: Victoria Dominguez

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