Does America Need Indian's? The H1B Visa Fight

Join us for one of our most requested episodes as we dive into the heated debate around the H1B visa program. We start by explaining what the H1B visa is supposed to be versus the reality of its implementation, including its significant impact on Indian immigration. We discuss arguments from both sides, touching on issues like Indian nepotism in hiring and the economic advantages of skilled immigrants. The conversation also covers the demographic challenges America faces and the role of highly skilled immigrants in maintaining national security and economic growth. We further analyze a controversial article from Aporia that critiques skilled immigration from a cultural perspective. The episode also delves into the accusations against Elon Musk's alleged sock puppet account on Twitter, providing a nuanced discussion around the H1B visa, its cultural impact, and its importance for America's future. Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. I'm excited to be here with you today. This is probably one of the most requested episodes we've ever had, but what are our thoughts on the current H 1B visa debate that's going on in the right right now? Now, just first, I need to categorize for people's brains, which the H 1B visa actually is, because there was what we are told the H 1B visa is, and then there is what the H 1B visa actually is.

So for people outside the United States, the H 1B visa is the idea that if you have special talents or you're uniquely skilled companies can bring you, like, bring you over for immigration and sort of fast track your immigration process only if they can prove that they can't find an equivalent person in the United States.

So, What the H 1B visa actually is, and this is going to shock you, Simone, is you know how the U. S. used to have, like, immigration thresholds for different countries? Where if you were of certain ethnicities, you could get sort of a free pass into the United States, or a much easier pass into the United States that made the existing ethnic mix of the [00:01:00] United States?

Right. The H 1B visa is basically that, but for Indian people. Seventy three percent of people who get an H 1B visa are Indian.

Simone Collins: Whoa, wow. Okay, that's more than I thought.

Malcolm Collins: That's an insane amount, if you're like, looking at a global stage. It is, it is the The and this, this plays into a lot of resistance that some people have to it.

So if you're just people like us and you're like, Oh, the competent people, like, I don't care if we get a lot of competent immigrants in, and a lot of people are complaining, well, it's not just the competent immigrants. There's a lot of Indian nepotism causing people to come in. So I want to get to that aspect of the debate, because I think that there is a level of nuance here.

The second thing I'd like to say on all of this is I told you so. So, so many people, when we were like, okay, we're Believe me, Trump's administration is now the new right. That's who's staffing his offices. That's going to be the policy you're going to see coming out of it. When I talked about the new right, old right split and the JD Vance [00:02:00] appointment, and it's sort of symbolizing Trump going in a new right direction.

And I had pointed out many times, I was like, Trump is against low skilled immigrants, he is for high skilled immigrants on the all in podcast. He even went so far as to say he'd give all, People who got a college degree in in America and automatic citizenship. Now, I think that's going too far, but I am okay if you do that for like the top two, three colleges, maybe.

Now, because it's actually insane. We like train here, the best PhDs, like in the world here. And we'll get people to go, like go to Stanford. Like I had a friend from Israel, right? Came over, started a company. It was doing well. And they kicked him out of the country. And I'm like, This company could have been like a billion dollar company.

What percent of our unicorns are by immigrants? I think it's like 33 percent of the companies that ended up being over a billion dollars in

Simone Collins: valuation.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry. I was rowing here. It was 55%. So over half of us Billion dollar valuation companies are founded by first-generation immigrants.

Yeah. It's just stupid to kick out somebody with a Stanford MBA who's starting a company that's already funded. I'm like, what, what is wrong with you people?

So [00:03:00] like broadly I'm, I'm proud of this, but, but the marketing point here that I was like, look, the new right is really in control of the ship now. And a lot of people thought I was blustering or that I was bluffing. Or that I would, like, apparently no, like the H1B visa. That is the most anti MAGA thing you could have in terms of like the old MAGA.

Right? But it fits perfectly with the policy of the new right. Which is just about efficiency and actually America first, like ensuring that we beat our enemies. And so if it works out well, okay. So now let's get into the, the actual battle here. Anything you want to say before I go further?

Simone Collins: No, keep going.

I do have only one hesitation that hit me about H 1B visas after I read an Aporia article, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on their arguments, which I will run by you, but let's go over your arguments first.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, hold on. There's something we have to go over before any of this. The Andrean Didderman. Is

Simone Collins: this a real person's name?

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's funny that you think it sounds like a made up name. So many people argue that a Twitter account called Andrian Ditterman is a [00:04:00] fake account that Elon Musk is using as a sock puppet to support himself. That has said things like, You're a great dad, Elon. And that has regularly tweeted like pro Elon things.

And He doesn't seem

Simone Collins: like the kind of person to do a sock puppet account.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so the left is memeing about this. I learned about it from like an advice animals meme. Unfortunately, from a drama perspective, it's almost certainly not true. One is common sense. If, as Simone said, it's just out of character for him. If you like follow him in any form of a generous fashion um, or, He, can I say he wouldn't do something like that.

It, it just doesn't come off like him. He's sort of like a nerdy dad type. He's not like a desperate for affirmation. In fact, he does a lot of things that are very like going to get him public hate. He more likes s**t storming than affirmation. Like he's a, he's a troll for, for trollings sake [00:05:00] in a big way.

No, I

Simone Collins: think, I think he likes attention. Just like any person, typically, but he's not, it takes a very specific type of person to do the sock puppeting thing. He

Malcolm Collins: doesn't care about positive attention, I guess I'd say.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, and he, like, the kind of person who is capable of, Who would turn to a sock pocket puppet for affirmation is also the kind of person who doesn't hold themselves to that high of a standard.

There are some people who are too proud Who would actually want real praise like they may pander to praise They would never use themselves to do that because it needs to be real like the the lack of honor In fake praise from a sock puppet account that you yourself created would be so humiliating to yourself and your own internal narrative That like you would never do it,

Malcolm Collins: but it also makes no sense This account had 20 000 followers or whatever year ago now.

It's at like a hundred thousand followers Elon's elon tweets get like Tens of millions of views [00:06:00] like that. He would try to praise himself and in terms of responses I would guess the average elon tweet gets Probably and what do you think 200 000 responses like a single response among those would not be enough to matter like even on videos as small as ours.

We have already reached a size Where it wouldn't make sense for me to create a sock puppet because the sock puppet would just, like, be drowned out by all the legitimate comments and praise. Elon has enough obsequious fanboys that he doesn't need a sock puppet. But also there's hard evidence that it's not Elon, which a lot of people haven't done digging.

And so here I'm going to read from a piece by Kattrick. According to Alistair McPline, he participated in a Twitter Spaces event and heard the voice of Adrian Ditterman, which sounded like Elon Musk's voice modified using modulation software. Yeah?

Simone Collins: Just crazy.

Malcolm Collins: But he goes on to say, last year I joined some of Ditterman's Twitter Spaces, where he was [00:07:00] encouraging people to jump on Elon Musk's tweets as soon as they were posted to boost reach and engagement.

So, you know what? Unfortunately, here we basically have before he and then he goes, and it was clear that Adrian is not Elon Musk, but that he often made deliberate slips in his conversation to spark controversy and grab attention. These slips seem designed to make people think he's Musk, but no real evidence to support the claim.

And there's also evidence that Adrian and Elon have been in the same spaces several times but they're not the same person. A year ago, Adrian had 20k followers and he was actively encouraging his audience to engage with his posts and try to get Musk into his live rooms. If you really believe Adrian is Elon, you're probably not looking closely enough at the facts.

The whole idea that they're the same person falls apart as soon as you take a deeper look. So basically, it would only appear that Adrian was Elon if you look at his tweets from the last year. If you look at his tweets or live rooms from before that year. He was constantly begging to try to get Elon to retweet him, or to dip into his live rooms, which is not something Elon pretending to be Elon would do, [00:08:00] especially further back in the, in the ruse.

He wouldn't get better at the ruse, he wouldn't get worse at the ruse as time went on, he'd get better at the ruse as time went on, right? You know? One would

Simone Collins: expect, unless one becomes increasingly unhinged, like some sock puppeteers have.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But to me, this like Elon wouldn't do that. Like if he was going to create a sock puppet, he wouldn't also create a back trail where he has rooms where the sock puppet is pathetically begging to try to get people to get Elon to retweet him.

Yeah, this sounds

Simone Collins: like just a fan of Elon Musk. So what's the point? What does this fan have to do with H1N1? It is widely

Malcolm Collins: believed on the left that this fan is actually Elon Musk and it's dumb as hell. Like it goes to show like just how far the left will delude themselves. To believe anything that fits their narrative.

And if you're only consuming media from left leaning spaces, you may have assumed that there was actual evidence that this guy is Elon instead of evidence to the direct contrary. And, and when they're like, no, here's proof. He uses similar language. Yeah. But somebody who realized they could get [00:09:00] followers by pretending to be Elon would use similar language.

Oh, he always supports Elon. Yeah. Somebody who's trying to pretend to be an Elon Suck puppet would always support Elon.

And I note here, if you want to do a little bit of digging on this, all of the evidence.

And then Adrian determine is an Elan sock. Puppet comes from things that have been posted by Adrian determine not things that have been posted by Ilan. So people are like, oh, sometimes. He messes up and speaks in the first person. Yes. If somebody was trying to convince you they were Elan, they would do that.

Sometimes he uses language or wording similar to Elan. Yes. If somebody is trying to convince you, he would deal on, he would do that. Like the inability to use common sense on the left is just beyond me at this point. You wouldn't need evidence from the other side. The harder to fake side decide without benefit to faking side. If you're going to make this claim of which they have literally not.

Like How can you not see this ? They, there's no motivation for someone to pretend to be an Elon Stock Club. Oh, yes. That's exactly the sort of thing a crazy unhinged person on [00:10:00] the internet would do.

Right. So anyway back to the topic at hand here. So who's on each side? Elon, obviously one of the key champions on the H one B program. If so, is Vivek Swami and Donald Trump. Donald Trump has recently it said, quote unquote, he always liked the visa. Running companies, you know, you're always going to be handling this.

So one side of the battlefield, you've got Elon, you've got Vivek, and you've got Donald Trump. So if you're not familiar with Elon and Vivek, they are both entrepreneurs. They are both people who have run companies. They are not like generic populists. Playing to racial anxieties like some of wave one Mago on Elon Musk

Simone Collins: is an immigrant from South Africa, though,

Malcolm Collins: right?

I think he came over on an H1 BV. So I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know.

Simone Collins: He came via Canada because he first went to university in Canada. So I don't know the whole process. But then, yeah, he went to university. The U. S. too, so I'm not sure exactly what the immigration status was, but for sure, I mean, he is a [00:11:00] highly skilled person who immigrated to the United States and significantly contributed to the United States well being, so, you know.

Malcolm Collins: And then on the anti side, you have Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon. Right. Like these are, Yes. We've done such great things for her. Right. No, but these aren't, you know, Steve Bannon might be like technically a business person, but he is first and foremost, like a populist messenger. Right. And you know, he is not somebody who's had to build giant companies like Vivec or Elon have built, or who's regularly having to hire top engineering talent and would understand why this is necessary.

Now for the

Accusations that you see a lot on the comments around this is, this is just being used by Indians to hire other Indians. There is evidence for this in terms of lawsuits. So, cognizant, a U S jury found cognizance employment practices, constituted discriminatory conduct towards non Indian workers. 75 percent of their workforce was South [00:12:00] Asian.

And only about 12 percent came from the U S. And they're using the HPV process. So, so here's the problem, right? You can look at an entire company that's doing this. Would you be able to catch a department at Microsoft that was doing this? Would you be able to catch a department at Google that was doing this?

No. And that's what people are saying is happening, right? So, we know that this is happening when Indians are running companies. Like, is it happening when they're running departments? And when you consider the number of fortune 500 companies in the U S that are run by Indians, which is hugely disproportionate, I can see why tech workers would be stressing about this.

Then there was the Tata Consultancy Services in the United States.

So, they fired Americans on short notice and replaced them with Indian workers on H 1B visas, and they were sued for illegal discrimination here. Then you have Infosys paid a record 34 million to settle allegations about this. Just for the sa scale of the fraud here, circumventing H one B visa requirements to unlawfully using [00:13:00] B one visa holders to perform skilled labor, violating US immigration laws to increase profits and an unfair advantage of your competitors.

And yeah. So that's the gist of the information here. Yeah. Now that you've heard, what was it that you read that gave you a thought on this?

Simone Collins: Yeah, so, before reading this article, I was like, Categorically, we benefit from bringing in more skilled immigration. Why? One, we need, from a demographic collapse standpoint, more high, high taxpayers. So people who are coming in and making a lot of money. Are going to hold up the social services for those less fortunate and we really, we really need that.

We really need people to come in and pay for things. So there's that. And in general, it seems like a good idea to, to bring in talent and keep the talent that we invest money in through our universities to, to educate, right. You know, if we have the good schools, shouldn't we keep the good talent that we helped to cultivate?

So then I read [00:14:00] a Porya's article. Title, increasing skilled immigration is a mistake. The gist of the article is that they, they argue that large portion of skilled immigration is is Asian and that Asian immigrants are far more likely to undermine. The, the underpinnings that make America successful, like freedom of speech and small government.

So the arguments that they make are that for example, and I'm here, I'm quoting from the article. Asian Americans are an extremely left wing group, so much so that despite their economic success, Asians are much more pro government intervention than whites and are closer to blacks or Hispanics , you have much more to gain from redistribution.

For instance, a super majority of Asians, 66%, believe that the government should do more to solve problems compared to only 44 percent of whites. Similarly, a super majority, 70 percent of Asians say government regulation is necessary to protect the public interest compared to only 53 percent of [00:15:00] whites.

And then when asked, Explicitly, Asians are much more pro socialist. 49 percent have a positive impression of socialism compared to only 31 percent of whites. They also argue, they also argue that Asians are 12 points more likely than whites to favor censorship.

And while it's impossible to say that You know, this, this would be super like powerful immediately in changing the shape of the United States. If we have significant immigration. from specifically Asian cultures, it could shift the culture of the United States if there isn't really strong assimilation.

They also point out that the United States in comparison with we'll say non U. S. Anglosphere countries, which have had much more open to high skilled immigration policies historically, they note that, quote the comparison with the non U. S. Anglosphere is particularly instructive because these countries are very similar to the United States culturally, genetically, and institutionally.

Britain, Australia, and Canada have all grown more slowly than the United [00:16:00] States since the 2008 financial crisis, and all three have embraced a policy of enormous amounts, far more per capita than the United States, of skilled legal immigration, particularly from China and South Asia. All three have been relatively stagnant, Personal incomes and skyrocketing housing prices.

One might object on the grounds of that immigration to Canada, Australia and Britain isn't really skilled, but this is what skilled immigration looks like when refracted through government bureaucracies. We should treat these countries as a cautionary tale. We would very easily end up in their shoes.

And then I would add to that that after reading this article, I hear news about how Canada is undergoing a, an intense housing prices, pricing crisis, and the government is kind of in turmoil now because no one can afford housing. And what happened was, especially when it came to people being able to get work permits and better immigration status by attending some kind of university in Canada, that basically diploma mill started rolling out diplomas to immigrants who then got to stay in and who have just kind of messed up the [00:17:00] job market and they've messed up The, the housing market and while Americans largely agree that immigrants are taking jobs that Americans don't want, I would also argue that Americans are going to have to start taking jobs and Americans don't want because the jobs they do want are disappearing because of AI.

So these are my general hesitations. I think there are ways to navigate around that. I think

Malcolm Collins: really hard on this particular hesitation. Okay. So, I think if they, and I like Emporia, but I think that they do have certain biases

around,

around certain HBD stuff. And I think that if they wanted to convince me, They would have run the statistics by South Asian immigrants because that's who's using the H 1B visa and the political opinions of, am I surprised that, you know, like Chinese or like, Japanese or Korean people might be majority Democrat?

Yeah. I mean like a lot of my, even like a lot of smart Asians I know are like Democrat, like weirdly. And I'm like, but you, you see there's the [00:18:00] bad guys and they're like, yeah, but you know, whatever the system. I have not seen the was my South Asian friends. Indians, in fact, and I have argued this in a previous episode, might end up being the core of the leadership of a future Republican Party in this country, and we're already seeing this with the new right, whether it's for Beck or Chamath or like, they, they just come off as much better aligned with the right than And I mean we even see this in the influencer space even in like the HBD Like even in their own influencer space.

You've got like, razeeb khan you got you know, I I just I don't know if I, I will look up afterwards for statistics on this after the show,

So Indians of the voting block have been moving rapidly to the right recently. In 20, 20, 50 6% of American Indians identified as Democrats. Well, in 2024, this number had dropped to 47%.

However, , one poll found that 61% intended to [00:19:00] vote for Kamilah while only 32% intended to vote for Trump.

but I actually expect that the right is going to pick up a lot of Indians.

And it just seems pretty natural to me, given that they're pretty based on a lot of this there's ethnic differences between people stuff and we want to protect the country when

Simone Collins: it comes to, like. Chris, for human editing, there, there are, Oh yeah, they are the most pro genetically

Malcolm Collins: editing humans culture.

They're the only culture where the majority of people are like, yeah, it's like 80 percent or something. Like in India, but there's the secondary effect here, which I want to consider. Which is a lot of people are like, yeah, but what about the nepotism networks? And I'm like, look, the nepotism networks are real, but then you also have the cultural differences issue.

And as we point out, there are cultural differences between people. It's just,

yeah,

and maybe maybe ethnic differences as well. I mean, what's the point of diversity if we're not different, right? And India as a culture creates. Now, the first thing I'd note is we are [00:20:00] draining India right now. So if you look at the Indians who come to America, they are

Disproportionately . Brahmin cast which is the vast minority of Indians in India.

To be more specific. 80% of Hindi Indian Americans identify with one of the upper castes. , and of those who are Brahmins specifically 25% of American immigrants are Brahmans. This contrast was then making up just 5% of India's population.

And these are people who are genetically quite distant from the other cast in India, to the extent where Aporia did a good piece on this, there is as much difference between a Brahmin and, like, another caste in India as there is between somebody in northern Germany and Greece in Europe. And if you know the difference between the German people and the Greek people, it is, you know, Severe you could not just replace a german person with a greek person and average and you know, I just say there's a reason there's not a lot of heavy manufacturing in greece.

[00:21:00] Now The the point here being is that we are getting A cream of the crop from India that has been selected as the cream of the crop over Like literally their entire history of this caste system where they had this like intellectual caste, which is who the brahmins are so we're not we're one not getting normal quote unquote indians.

We are getting Elite Indians which are more genetically distant from normals than people from other countries would be is going to be very damaging to India's future prospects. And then when it's not just that, we also get like the other, like elite Indian groups at higher rates, like the Jayans and the Indian Christians and the by the way, India has had Christians for like ever.

If you didn't know this.

Simone Collins: No, I did not know that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. India, India has had a Christians, I think from within like 300 years of Christ's life, they've had a Christian community. Good

Simone Collins: gracious. All

Malcolm Collins: right. Which obviously leads to like a, a differentiated [00:22:00] genetically community because they're basically considered religious weirdos for a long time.

Right. You know, like the same way the James would be here in the same way, the The Parsi would be, who we often talk about, who we also disproportionately would get as immigrants. I don't think we get disproportionate Parsis, actually, because they have to live in weird, like, housing stuff. But anyway, and I'm assuming we get a disproportionate number of JN immigrants, given the number of JNs I know, versus the percent of the Indian population they are.

So, and all these groups that we're mentioning are groups that do disproportionately economically well in India. So, we are draining India of its talent, they're coming to the U. S., many of them aren't having kids. You know, it's not like they're going to replace us or anything. You know, it's just a drain on a global economic talent for some minor economic benefit to the United States, which, you know, being a pro American nationalist, I'm pro that.

It would be cool if we could create self sustaining Indian communities here, but like, who knows if that's a possibility.

A note here Indians have a fertility rate of 1.47 children per [00:23:00] woman, as of 2022. So well below the American average, , and a well below replacement rate. But then, It's the cultural differences between this group of Indians, the group I've seen the other people is when people tell me, like, can you believe this portion of five fortune 500 companies are run by Indians?

Can you believe that? What is it now? It's Google is run by an Indian.

Microsoft is run by an Indian. IBM is run by an Indian. Adobe is run by an Indian. YouTube is run by an Indian,

like all of them are run by Indians now.

I don't know. I

Simone Collins: wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. Like, I mean, in, in the tech space, there's just a really heavy Indian representation.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And it's that I would say that Indians have a unique talent, like the cultural differences that are represented in this group of Indians that we are getting as each one when.

Visa holders as they're sort of like a perfect culture for engaging with and out competing within large bureaucracies. They are just hyper good at it. And like, [00:24:00] I also kind of get it. Okay, Simone, for example obviously we've never done this form of discrimination. The vast majority of people who work for us are Latin American.

That's the culture we work most with. But let's just say you had a technology company, right? And it was a big one. Lots of people were working at it and you had to choose .

Malcolm Collins: Are you trying to get a suit? Okay, I won't say this. I'm just saying that Like, the, the point is, is, is, is that Indian culture leads to them questioning orders less or trying their own ideas without your approval, less in ways that can lead to things falling apart.

They are less likely to as, as I've seen waste time on personal recreation in the office and stuff like that. They, well, no, it's just like. I get why when Elon's like, look, I cannot find , competent lead engineers trained in the United States.

And I'm looking to India for that from a cultural perspective, I sort of get where he's coming from. If you're looking [00:25:00] for steady iterative improvement without risk of like a controversy or without risk of keep in mind how, how How frequently do you hear of some, like, Indian head of a company, right, getting in trouble for a hooker party, or harassing one of his staff, or sleeping with an underage intern, or, like, never!

Like, well, not never, like, obviously it happens,

Simone Collins: but I'm just saying Well, can you, can you think of a single example of one

Malcolm Collins: happening, though? Of one of that happening? No! I can't either. Whoops. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Whoops. Right. Like this creates a problem. Right. So in

Simone Collins: response to the Aporia article, you're just arguing that basically they are budging with the samples here, basically trying to fob off East Asians as like South Asians as well.

And that really most of the H1B visa, like the evidence you already have, like you stated that the 70 something percent [00:26:00] number. being South Asians, and it's just a different group. So you can't just be like, well, Asians are generally more in favor of big government and socialism and censorship when in the end you need to, like, if we're really going to have this conversation, we need to pull specific numbers about South Asians.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And

Simone Collins: this multiplies their argument.

Malcolm Collins: No here, it doesn't notify their argument. As I made a point, , in the ad earlier is that the, they are right in the minority of south Asians are voting democratic even still. While they are moving to the right. , if we were trying to just bring in people who we felt would vote for our side, then we should stop bringing in south Asians, I think that ultimately, , with these groups were just causing more harm to ourselves by putting in immigration bans. Anything that hurts our AI companies right now, or our space travel companies right now, our drone companies. These are the things that are going to lead us [00:27:00] to have global hedging me in the future. The people who win these particular battles now. Are going to win the game . I mean, after world war two, we took a bunch of Nazi engineers.

Did, you know, build the space program and a lot of the technology that our world runs off of right now and then helped to make us so rich and people could see like, yeah, but they. You know, had all these bad views and they had all these bad politics and I'm like, yeah, but they were damn good engineers.

The avionic race right now is the Manhattan project of our era. And the country who wins it basically wins the civilizational game. As far as any good predictive power as we have right now, it makes sense that we're doing whatever we can. To get.

Cheap high quality talent, even if it comes at a cost. And I do admit it does come at a cost.

Note here, if you talk about them, like, destroying American culture or something like that, Indians are the least destructive, like, even less than the Jews. I'm like, the Jews don't try [00:28:00] to convert you, like, why are you messing with them? They're not trying to, like, influence you as their culture, but they often end up running, like, Big media stuff and things like that.

It intrinsically leads their culture to trip, to go down into society. And they often end up being like well known intellectuals who people listen to Indians. It's almost the opposite. Like it, your kids are not at risk of being converted into like Hindu or Sikh or any, any of those cultures coming out of India, there's for

Simone Collins: sure.

No evangelization that I see. Very little, there's also very little exclusion. Most of the big Indian weddings that I've been seeing friends posting photos of, for example, are, are mixed between, you know, one. American and one Indian, so well, in

Malcolm Collins: our neighborhood, people might not know this, but for where we live in, like, rural us, and this is something that a lot of people.

Who grew up in cities don't know is this is my read. I don't know if it's true, but it's my read. Is it [00:29:00] Indians actually primarily do not immigrate to inner city America in the same way? A lot of other immigrants do when people are like, oh, I live in an inner city. So I'm in such a diverse area. I'm like, well, I mean only a few ethnicities actually tolerate American inner cities.

pretty much exclusively immigrate to American suburbs and exurbs. Indians and South Asians are one of the groups that pretty much primarily immigrates to exurbs. And so our town that we live in is majority for our age group South Asian.

And they're

either Indian or Pakistani. I haven't asked yet because you don't want to get that one wrong.

And I can't. I remember in an episode. Well, wouldn't, if they were,

Simone Collins: if there were more Pakistani, we would probably see more. Islamic style veiling among women and we do

Malcolm Collins: absolutely none of that. Yeah, they must know I would

Simone Collins: say that they're primarily Indian if I had to guess

Malcolm Collins: Yeah but When we moved here, we considered that like a huge bonus.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh the We can get [00:30:00] the Indian grocery store. That is literally walking distance from our house where we can get it like directly imported You Spices and foods. Oh God. Oh yeah. And all

Malcolm Collins: these Indian, oh, we use 'em cooking all the time. I love it. But but it's, we need to make that, we need to make s er soon.

I think it's, it's not just that, it's that culturally speaking, if I'm like, how do I know that my kids are gonna grow up safe? If they're hanging out with a bunch of Indian friends, I'm not worried about them. Yeah. I'm not worried about them. Yeah.

this, this morning you were on this big

Simone Collins: kick of like, oh my God.

Like what if our children's best. Friends come out as Therians and then what are we going to do? And yeah, their daughter comes out

Malcolm Collins: as a Therian, that's somebody who thinks that they're an animal technically, like a trans person thinks they're the other gender that, that first generation Indian parent is going to be like, what the f**k are you talking about?

You're not a cat, like grow up studying. But what I'm saying is, is that culturally [00:31:00] speaking, am I afraid of them like tainting the United States in some way? Like, absolutely not. In fact, I feel much safer with my kids. Like, if they brought home, let's, let's put it this way. If they brought home like white friends, right?

I'd be like, And they're like, Oh, I want to go to their house. I'm like, I actually need to like investigate the parent. We

Simone Collins: need to, we need to check them out. We need to call their parents, maybe visit with them the first time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Make sure they're not going to be, you know, trying to indoctrinate my kid was like ridiculous ideas.

If, if this kid is, is, you know, obviously like second generation, like their parents are first generation Indians. I'm not, I'm not vetting that. I'm like, yeah, f**k, go. You go. Whatever. Fine. I am, no risk. They're not, of them, of them picking up bad habits from that.

Simone Collins: But you're just gonna want the parents to like you.

We'd probably send them over with eggs from our coop or something. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'd

Malcolm Collins: be nice about it, but like, what I'm saying is, I wouldn't have any fears at all and, and that might be, I mean, this is [00:32:00] the thing, like, they, they say that, like, I guess that's a racist position for me to be like, look, if they look like they're first generation immigrants from India, I'm pretty sure they're not woke or insane like that.

A lot of people would be like, that's a really offensive, but it's freaking true. Especially if they're in an Indian community, like the community in our neighborhood. So then, I guess I'm just not afraid of the cultural damage that could be done by these groups. I am okay with the ones who want to keep their culture.

I'm okay with the ones who want to join our culture. Like what, either way it's fine. Like it's a, it's a, it's not like a destructive culture. And there, and there are cultures I think that are destructive, right? But I just, the, the Indian Brahmins who are coming over, it's, it's not a culture that like, I, I would be particularly worried about damaging the United States.

Now people will be like what you really have no problem with the fact that 73% of people coming in the H1B visa or Indian, , approximately 13% are Chinese. , but when you look at. You know, [00:33:00] countries like Canada, it's 1% of you look at the United Kingdom. It's 0.5 to 6% France, 0.4% Germany, 0.3% Italy, 0.3% Spain, 0.3%. , like don't you want more German immigrants?

Don't you want more Canadian immigrants? And here I'm like, oh, well, I mean, So there's sort of two factors here, right? Like, is there a threat that we're bringing in a bunch of people who are going to replace us? No, because Indian and Chinese. Have a much lower birth rate than native born Americans. So we're bringing in a population where essentially memetically burning off within a generation or two. , but then too.

I think people have in their heads. The th the Germans are, I dunno, like, like something that they are Germans and Canadians are like infected with the woke mind virus, much more than people in the United States look at what they've done to their own countries. Do we want to be importing them into our country?

Like, Indians are fairly based from most of the interactions I have with them. Germans. [00:34:00] On the other hand, Canadians on the other. Like, I think that people have this perception. That they're importing like. It's like, we're in a zombie plague right

Speaker 4: I told you this new one's terrible! There's no cure! Oh, not Sophie, man, not Sophie! We can't kill Sophie! We must check our privilege

Speaker 8: to dismantle the heteronormative patriarchy's systemic pattern of oppression!

Speaker 6: Okay, let's kill

Malcolm Collins: now with this mind virus and we're in this fortification and we've been letting in survivors. And then the guy next to me is like, Hey, not enough of the survivors are white and you know, whites gotta stick with white.

So can we let some of those guys in? And I'm like, Those guys are clearly zombies. I understand they're white, but I, , the, the walk that groaning that I eat brains, can we maybe like, forget about. Ethnocentrism for a minute here and just admit that like, Germany and Canada are already lost.

Speaker 8: [00:35:00] Uh, guys? Is

Speaker 4: Smash capitalism! Eat the rich! If you're white, you're the problem!

Speaker 7: You're oppressing me.

Speaker 6: Not Hudson.

Speaker 4: You are defined entirely by your intersexual identity groups, and can be classified as good or evil based on your race, your gender, and your social class. Etcetera!

Malcolm Collins: And I'd also point out here that more Indians are coming in on this program. And more Chinese people are coming in on this program because they're applying to companies in the U S to move here. And these companies are hiring them to move here. , at a, at a rate, much higher than Germans or, or, or British people are doing that.

It's not like the system itself is rigged outside of the S no nepotism that exists among.

Indians and, and in Chinese, Right.

The problem that I, and pretty much the entire new right has with unchecked immigration is that these people are [00:36:00] coming in and they are not contributing tax dollars. They are not contributing to our economy. The government's giving them free, you know, uh, money basically. , and it's, it's just unsustainable.

You cannot have, as I've mentioned, many times a country cannot survive with both porous borders and substantial social services, because if you have both, then you are going to disproportionately attract the people who want to live off of those social services, which are the least productive people. , until you can no longer afford to offer those services because they just keep coming in until the like osmosis basically.

Now here's my question for you, because this is where I do have some consternation.

Simone Collins: Okay. What

Malcolm Collins: about the Indian manager at Google, who's just hiring all Indians. Do we need to have like better laws about this? Do we need to have.

Simone Collins: I mean, this is hard because cultural fit and also team cohesion, it just works better when people are on the same [00:37:00] level with culture, you know, it's going to work better together. Oh God, but now I'm talking about segregation. But if I, if I want a team to work together optimally. I'm not going to, I can't imposing affirmative action on someone is going, it's going to compromise the potential efficiency of their team.

And if they want to be able to work seamlessly with people and not have to spend a ton of time on communication and handholding and making sure everyone is on the same page. Hiring people. And this is, this is for exactly the same reason why we're so in favor of people hiring their cousins or childhood friends at our own business or siblings.

Malcolm Collins: That's what we do at our business. We're a majority Latin American business that we operate. A bunch

Simone Collins: of our newest hires have been existing team members, siblings, cousins, extended family. Et cetera. And that is because they work seamlessly together and there isn't this huge like investment in trading and there isn't a

Malcolm Collins: fight over stuff.

So like, if you're talking about sales commissions and stuff like that, if everyone's related to each other, then they [00:38:00] don't care because they're all sending the money back to the same people.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's, it's just, it's, it's a different thing. So I, I don't, one, I don't like intervention in any case, you know, sort of what you would say, you would say

Malcolm Collins: is that the problem here, isn't that the Indians are being ethnically selective in their hiring practices.

It's that white should be more ethnically selective in their hiring practices to even it out.

Simone Collins: Because no, because I think that in many cases like, we, for example, don't hire

Malcolm Collins: Whites ever, really. I mean, not on purpose, not on purpose.

Simone Collins: Well, I guess you could say like, like European people of like direct European descent.

Just so many people that are like Latin America or like Italians, you know, like from, they're from Europe. I just like, it's weird saying whites. But yeah, just like people from, like, we, we, we're not hiring people who are culturally similar to us. In many cases for our own companies, because we don't think that people who are culturally similar to us, or maybe like the best people [00:39:00] to do specific roles that we're hiring for.

I think we just have to be, I don't know, can we just do a, don't be a dick about it role, you know, like be reasonable. Don't don't be crazy. Make your own way.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I, I don't know if you can, I, I, I get, yeah, like it

Simone Collins: screwed up that a bunch of, well, but here's the thing is, is I imagine what happened was a lot of these white people who are laid off and then a bunch of Indian H1B visa people were hired was because the white people just cost a lot less when you have companies that are meant to maximize shareholder value.

Well, Oh, can you be so angry that they're trying to maximize shareholder value by getting rid of more expensive people? I just feel like letting market forces. play out is something you have to do if companies are designed to maximize shareholder value. And if you have such a big problem with that, well, maybe you don't build your entire society around that.

Malcolm Collins: Well, but I, I disagree. I genuinely do [00:40:00] think that there is racism in how some Indians hire. I think especially in the tech industry. And I understand why some people are mad about this. Well, I

Simone Collins: mean, but,

Malcolm Collins: but I don't know. Or is it comfort working with people like you. That's racism. Simone, you're saying like, is it racism that X, X person never hires any black people or comfort in working with people like him?

Like that's racism. Okay. Call it what you want, but discomfort with people of different ethnic groups is racism. Now I, I. I, what you're arguing is that maybe it doesn't need to be malicious, but it is malicious if it's leading to differential hiring practices. If it was a white person, not hiring non white people, you would see this as I know, I just,

Simone Collins: I really don't like the idea of telling people how to run their businesses.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, boom. This is where I'd say, I'd say I,

Simone Collins: I, I would hate the idea of, of someone being like, you've been hiring too many. [00:41:00] Latin American people for your company, Simone and Mel. No, I agree.

Malcolm Collins: We would get in so much trouble. If you could get in trouble for hiring too many gay people or Latin Americans, our company would be in so much s**t.

People would be like, you have a, you have a really weird number of gay Latin Americans at your company. And I'm like, well, we're a travel agency. They're good at this. And they're like, that sounds like a stereotype. I'm like, because it's f*****g true, you knob. Like, there's a reason. But. What I would say Simone,

Simone Collins: yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it is my sort of summary on this.

If you were wondering, like, what's my, I get the concern. I am not saying that this is an issue where it's black and white and there's no concerns. But if I was going to come down on a, Would I want America cutting back on or restricting H 1B visas? No. I think that will hurt us economically. I think that hurts us from a national security perspective.

I think that hurts us geopolitically. I think that that makes our country weaker. Like, across the board, There are negatives [00:42:00] to H1B visas. Yeah,

Simone Collins: in the face of demographic collapse,

Malcolm Collins: beggars

Simone Collins: can't be choosers,

Malcolm Collins: too. Yeah, on the net, it's a benefit. And because it's a benefit on the net, I'm okay with it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I am actually really glad to see that it looks like Trump's administration is moving in this direction. Yeah, I told you guys like before the election and people were like, Oh, like, are these guys really like the number one, like new, right? Podcasters. I think we kind of are maybe, maybe all in is, is it would be considered like solidly new, right?

And very,

Simone Collins: yeah. And they're very big,

Malcolm Collins: but you're the biggest new, right? Female, which I always point out to her. You are literally the biggest new, right? Female talking head. And we told you guys before this election, we're like, New right is for skilled immigration, like unmitigatedly for skilled immigration.

And I think a lot of people, they thought maybe like this wouldn't end up in policy or like we were bluffing or like [00:43:00] we're, we're shitting you. And I'm like, no, like this, this is what we believe.

Also, the funny the, one of the guys who were friends with at the Heritage Foundation who wrote a lot of the, the spooky stuff that scared progressives about the like, birth control and life begins at conception and all of that. So all of you, all of you righties who are like, oh, wait, we've got to be careful about the people who are like, life begins at conception and like, we got to stop abortions at all levels and we got to that stuff in the Heritage Foundation's report was written by an Indian.

So, you know who runs, by the way, American moment, right? Like, if you don't know who they are, they're seen as like this far right organization that trains a lot of staffers who go into the Trump administration and stuff like that. They are very far, right. Far right. If people like us to the extent where one of the other high level people in the organization regularly teases us about being fake Christians, they're like the dangerous elements that their, their head guy, Indian.

Right. I think the founder Indian across the conservative spear, many of the people pushing [00:44:00] for the most hard right line, I'd say, like legacy GOP ideas and GOP, like ultra what people would think of as like ultra Christian hard line ideas. are Indians. Because Indians really like order, I guess I'd say.

And they, and they like these sorts of ideas as they apply to that. So I, I also say that I think a lot of people who are like, Oh, we don't want Indians ending up running our party. It's like they already do. Okay, and and they're pushing against the weird stuff that you think that we're doing because we're the weird rebel type Right the weird Appalachian.

Let's do something new type. They're the let's keep things the way they are Let's keep the ship afloat type and it's good that we have people of both both Ilks in

Simone Collins: both they they moderate each other

Malcolm Collins: But I think that a lot of people miss like, like, because the Indians don't like to, at least generically from what I've seen, take a public stage in stuff or like really piss [00:45:00] people off publicly or troll publicly.

They don't realize that a lot of the orgs that are pushing for the agenda that they want are run by Indian immigrants.

Simone Collins: Fair point. Yeah. This is great. Good. All right. All in. I'm for it now. I'm much more comfortable with this. I do, I do want to keep America innovative and, you know, protective of free speech, but I also think that, you know, They're not having kids like intergenerationally.

It's not even, it's not in favor of those things. Doesn't really have the hope necessary to maintain above repopulation fertility. So great points. And that should have us covered.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and speaking of, like, what do engineers help us do? Well, they help us do SpaceX, they help us develop AI, they help us develop better semiconductors, they, like, all the s**t you need is what they're helping with.

Simone Collins: Pretty important.

Malcolm Collins: Alright, love you.

Simone Collins: Do not forget [00:46:00] to register for NatalCon. It is in March. It's coming up, and you can get 10 percent off your registration by entering the code COLLINS before you check out.

Speaker: Stop, stop, stop. Are you flattening it out? Good job.

You're doing great butterfly girl. Oh, wow. Wow. You guys have flattened it so well. Is there any air left? Oh, there you go. Dump! Dump! Dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps. Yay! Dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps.