Get Rich Education 456: Why a Housing Crash is 100% Certain - with Keith Weinhold and Ken McElroy
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Are you curious about the direction of rents and property prices?
In this episode of Get Rich Education, host Keith Weinhold dives into the absolute 100% certainty of a housing crash and how mortgage rates affect home prices.
Keith is interviewed by Ken McElroy.
He also shares the importance of real estate in reducing taxes and increasing income.
Keith discusses the attractive pricing and inflation in Ohio, and the benefits of investing in new build properties.
He even touches on the increasing gold purchases by central banks and the potential impact on personal finances.
Don't miss out on these valuable insights and learn about the prospects for a housing crash. Tune in now!
Title [00:01:37]
Advertisement for Freedom Family Investments
An advertisement for Freedom Family Investments and the benefits of investing in real estate.
Title [00:02:00]
Introduction to Get Rich Education
Keith White introduces the podcast episode and talks about the longevity and popularity of the show.
Title [00:03:54]
Real Estate Price Gains Since the Start of the Pandemic
Keith White discusses the cumulative home price appreciation in different regions since February 2020.
Title [00:12:33]
Discussion on the attractiveness of real estate pricing and the impact on renters.
Title [00:15:08]
Keith's personal experience of starting with a fourplex and the concept of house hacking.
Title [00:19:38]
Exploring the house hack model as a solution to affordability issues and leveraging other people's money for real estate investment.
Title [00:22:12]
Investing Out of State
The speaker discusses the benefits of investing in real estate out of state and the importance of choosing the right market and team.
Title [00:24:58]
Importance of Prioritizing Market and Team
The speaker emphasizes the importance of prioritizing the market and team before considering the property in real estate investing.
Title [00:27:19]
Supply Crash vs Price Crash
The speaker explains the significance of the housing supply crash that occurred in April 2020 and how it affects property prices and homelessness.
Title [00:31:51]
Inflation Measurement Challenges
Discussion on the difficulty of accurately measuring inflation due to various factors such as personal preferences and hedonic adjustments.
Title [00:34:05]
Housing's Impact on Inflation and Interest Rates
Exploration of the significant contribution of housing to the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and its implications for future interest rate changes.
Title [00:35:38]
Paradox of Rising Mortgage Rates and Home Prices
Explanation of the counterintuitive relationship between rising mortgage rates and increasing home prices, with historical data supporting this trend.
Title [00:42:28]
Advantages of Investing in New Build Properties
Discussion on why it makes more sense now to look at new build properties than in the recent past.
Title [00:43:49]
Feasibility of Building vs Buying in Different Markets
Comparison of the cost per unit for acquiring existing properties versus building new ones in different markets.
Title [00:46:28]
Turnkey Rental Properties and Scarcity as an Investment Theme
Exploration of the concept of turnkey rental properties and the importance of investing in scarce assets like real estate, gold, and bitcoin.
Topic 1: Central banks buying gold [00:51:38]
Discussion on how central banks are buying gold as a way to store value and hedge against the inflation and debasement of the US dollar.
Topic 2: Increasing geopolitical uncertainty and gold [00:52:36]
Exploration of how geopolitical events, such as trade agreements and conflicts, have led to increased uncertainty and a rise in the price of gold.
Topic 3: Reasons why home prices won't crash [00:56:46]
Explanation of several reasons why home prices are unlikely to crash, including a shortage of homes, strict lending guidelines, government intervention to prevent foreclosures, and the slowing of new home construction due to higher interest rates.
Resources mentioned:
Show Notes:
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Complete episode transcript:
Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - Welcome to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with a crucial update on the direction of rents and property prices. Then a discussion between Ken McElroy and I where I posit to his audience about why a housing crash is 100% certain and why what mortgage rates do to home prices is exactly the opposite of what everyone thinks. And more today on Get Rich Education. Taxes are your biggest expense. The best way to reduce your burden is real estate. Increase your income with amazing returns and reduce your taxable income with real estate write offs. As an employee with a high salary, you're devastated by taxes. Lighten your tax burden. With real estate incentives, you can offset your income from a W-2 job and from capital gains freedom. Family Investments is the experience partner you've been looking for. The Real Estate Insider Fund is that vehicle. This fund invests in real estate projects that make an impact, and you can join with as little as $50,000. Insiders get preferred returns of 10 to 12%. This means you get paid first.
Speaker 1 (00:01:08) - Insiders enjoy cash flow on a quarterly basis, and the tax benefits are life changing. Join the Freedom Family and become a real estate insider. Start on your path to financial freedom through passive income. Text Family to 66866. This is not a solicitation and is for accredited investors only. Please text family to 66866 for complete details.
Speaker 2 (00:01:37) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world.
Speaker UU (00:01:44) - This is Get rich education.
Speaker 1 (00:02:00) - Working from Hot Springs, Arkansas, to Palm Springs, California, and across 188 nations worldwide. You're listening to one of America's longest-running and most listened to shows on real estate. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host and my name is Keith Weinhold. And with 456 weekly episodes, you probably know that by now. Hey, I'm really grateful that you're here. Carefully chosen buy and hold Real estate is not day trading. Rather it is decade trading. Yeah. I'm a decade trader. Perhaps you're one two. You just haven't thought of it that way before.
Speaker 1 (00:02:41) - When I was recently with Ken McElroy in person in his studio in Scottsdale, Arizona, we produced a terrific media interview and conversation together that I'm going to share with you later today. But first, you know, it's not just you're out of control. Trader Joe's grocery bill. The entire world seems to be losing its battle with inflation. U.S inflation is still double where the powers that be want it. The UK recently stunned markets will need jacked up interest rates a half point to the highest level in 15 years. The ECB, Australia, Canada, Switzerland and Norway. They have all announced recent rate hikes. But Turkey Turkey is raising rates and astounding. 6.5%. Yeah, you heard that right. 6.5% all in one fell swoop. That's how much interest rates are going up there. Yet many say that it's not enough for them to get on top of their wildly out of control inflation. Now, let's get into a few real estate numbers here before my fantastic chat with real estate influencer in Great Guy Ken McElroy.
Speaker 1 (00:03:54) - Now here's a great set of real estate numbers since inflation has hit real estate too. Okay, we'll talk about rents in a moment, but let's talk price first with credit to John Burns, Real Estate Consulting. Let's look at American real estate price gains since the start of the pandemic. Okay. So this is not annual. This is cumulative starting in February of 2020 up to today. Here we go. There is a national home price appreciation figure and then it's broken into ten regions. And I think this regional breakup is kind of quirky, and I'll tell you why in a moment. But nationally, since the start of the pandemic, national real estate is up 36%. But let's stop and think about what that means for a moment. Well, since that time, February 2020, which is when these figures are all tracked back to, has the real rate of inflation also been 36%? I'll just say that the answer is yes. Well, then real estate has no inflation adjusted gain in all that time.
Speaker 1 (00:05:03) - Well, here are the ten regions cumulative gain since that time. Okay. Going from lowest to highest, Northern California is up 27%. The Northeast up 29%. The northwest is up 32%. Southern California up 33% cumulatively since that time, about three and a half years here. The Midwest is also up 33%. The Southwest up 38%. Texas up 40%. The Southeast up 46%. North Florida up 50%. A lot of castle markets there in north Florida, too. And the top appreciating region, according to this stat set since February of 2020 with 56% cumulative home price appreciation is South Florida. Yeah, up 56%. And now some of those regions mentioned like in the West, they were actually up more than this a few months ago and they've given back a little bit of their gain. But that is a great stat set. The only thing that seems quirky about the methodology to me is that you've got Florida and California, each with two stat sets, yet the entire Northeast is lumped in together without, say, breaking out New England.
Speaker 1 (00:06:26) - But I don't know, There might be a reason for the odd amalgamations there. I might look into that. Maybe that's just some regional bias or some concern there. Since I am a Northeastern guy, I think that by now, any long time listener knows that I'm from Pennsylvania and have lived most of my life there. I'm in Pennsylvania every year and I like to avoid hot summers, so I spend my summertime and more time in Anchorage. AK So fantastic home price appreciation in the past three and a half years, partially demand driven. Partially inflation driven, you know, three plus years ago, a lot of people, but never me, a lot of people, including real estate influencers, they said that the pandemic would be awful for both real estate and stocks because people would lose their jobs and lose their homes and businesses would shut down. Oh, no. We talked here about agree with it or not, the government's safety net is on its way and it came with the PPE and the Cares Act and everything else.
Speaker 1 (00:07:29) - I mean, Biden won't let people lose their homes. That's what was going on back then. And then in late 2021, I stated Jerry's National Home Appreciation forecast that home prices would rise between 9 and 10% in 2022. They ended up rising 10.2%. And then you remember that late last year I forecast that there really wouldn't be much of any national home price movement this year. Okay, 0%. I am on record right here on the show saying that then and here we are near the year's midpoint. And I like how that forecast is looking. And it was interesting. Late last year, Realtor.com, they predicted 5.4% national home price appreciation for this year. Well, just last week they revised it down to a drop of 6/10 of 1%. Okay. So basically they've gone to 0% as well, much like I forecast late last year. But of course in our core investor areas of the inland in the south, home prices, they are rising just a little this year. What about rents? That's something you might care about more.
Speaker 1 (00:08:42) - CoreLogic They tell us that rents for both single family homes and apartments are up 4% year over year, and that's really unremarkable. That's just the historic long term norm. And it's really been interesting how the rent growth rate for single family homes and apartments has just been remarkably similar, like shadowing each other. But the real story is that rent growth has really decelerated because national rent growth, it peaked at about 14% a year and a half ago. And now among Single-family rental homes, what you'd expect in inflation is happening. High end property rents are up just 2% because they're the least affordable. And then the more affordable low end rents are up 6%. And like anatomy, there are so many ways to parse real estate. There are so many ways to dissect the frog here. So let's look at rental growth by region. And it's from that chart that I shared with you in last week's Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter. Rents are down 2% in the West. They are up 1%. In the South. They're up 5% in the Midwest and they're up 5% in the Northeast as well.
Speaker 1 (00:10:02) - And what's been persistently steadiest is the Midwest price growth in rent growth. I mean, they're in the Midwest. That is like as stable as the clover honey that's in your pantry right now. And also, did you know that honey is the only food that doesn't spoil? Did you know that? Yes. Yeah. It's also stable, so it doesn't need mixing either. Stable like Midwestern real estate. And that's the reason that's had that best ratio of high rents to a low purchase price, which is really that key metric that you care about as a real estate investor. Now, for example, let's take a look at this specific property in Exact Street address from Marketplace. I mean, this is a great example. This is 224 Baltimore Street in Middletown, Ohio. Middletown is between Cincinnati and Dayton. Okay. This duplex here has a monthly rent income of $1,400 total from both sides. The price is $139,900. And this duplex is substantially rehabbed. And the $1,400 rent that's broken down by $800 comes from the two bed one bath side and $600 from the one bed, one bath side.
Speaker 1 (00:11:26) - The duplex is 1680 eight square feet. It's in a classy neighborhood and the rental status is that both sides are already leased. Okay, So when you have an existing property like this, sometimes you have that as the advantage. It's leased and on a duplex when you have both sides leased, you know what questions I would want to know before I buy a duplex like this? What is the rent payment history of those tenants on each side of the duplex and where are they employed? I mean, one might have been paying the rent. But if they're employed at the malls, pop up, stand for 4th of July fireworks or something, Well, I would want to know that. Or if their employment is more stable than something like that. So this 140 duplex is something you could buy with a 25% down payment. So even with closing costs, you're in there for under 50 K. So yes, they're in America's seventh most populous state of Ohio and might take on a property like this. Is that this duplex that's for you? If you're more interested in cash flow than you are appreciation.
Speaker 1 (00:12:33) - I mean, my gosh does pricing like this almost make you feel like inflation missed Ohio? That's how it feels in hey, that's what attracts renters as well. And you can find their property in more like them, including an increasing proportion of new build property nationwide from Florida to Indiana to Texas to utah@marketplace.com. Coming up in this interview with Ken, where I was a guest on his show, you're going to hear me say some things that you might have heard me say before, but I sort of say them in a different way when someone else sees interviewing me and I talk about including why there is a 100% certainty of a housing crash in a few other surprising things. And then at the end I discuss some new things that I have not discussed previously, including what I personally champion and invest in myself outside of real estate. We don't run with the herd on the mainland, but you know, here in Jerry, we are not an island to ourselves either because the dust from the herd affects us. Our investing philosophy is on a profitable, I suppose, peninsula, if you will.
Speaker 1 (00:13:48) - That's why I definitely say things that you don't expect to hear in this interview. And you know what? If someone only says what you expected to hear, that would probably be a disappointment and a waste of your time and you wouldn't learn anything. A critical real estate conversation between Ken McElroy and I, straight ahead. I'm Keith Reinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education. With real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. Genevieve is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB Real estate. Agree That's GWB Real estate. Agree. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex.
Speaker 1 (00:15:08) - So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. This is Richard Duncan, publisher and Macro Watch. Listen to get rich education with cheap wine and don't quit your day drinks. Hey, everybody. I'm here with Keith Reinhold. Welcome back. Hey, it's so good to be here. It's interesting. I was last here in January of 2021. And remember, Ken, that's when we talked about how you can profit from inflation. Inflation was only 1.5% back then. So for all the viewers and listeners, had they watched that, they really were profited from that surge of inflation, we should go back and check that one out again, you know, because I remember that discussion was fabulous. And now now that's kind of the hot topic, the hot topic for sure. So Keith has a great company. It's called Get Rich Education. Before we go down that road, let's talk about how you started, because most people, you know, they struggle with just getting started.
Speaker 1 (00:16:22) - And I know you started with a fourplex. Yes. And you know, this is something very actionable for you, the listener, the viewer there. You can start off like I did. I didn't have a lot of money when I started out. I think that's a common investor's story. So how could I do more with less? And, you know, I was in Anchorage, Alaska, at the time when I was about to buy my first fourplex building, and I didn't have the inclination to know how to remodel places or be a landlord or anything like that. And, you know, Ken, it's a quote we've all heard, but it bears repeating the circle of friends I had fallen in with Harkins, the Jim Rohn quote, You are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. Take your five closest friends income level. Take their educational attainment level, take the way they dress your five closest friends. If you want to change yourself, change your five. In two of my five in Anchorage, what I call pretty aspirational guys and two of my friends, they had made their first ever property a fourplex building with just a 3.5% down payment.
Speaker 1 (00:17:25) - So I learned how to do this from them. And you can still do this today. All you have to do is live in one of the units at least 12 months and just have a minimum credit score of 580. You can do that with a single family home, duplex, triplex or fourplex. That's how you can start with a bang and a small down payment. Yeah, we call that house hacking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talk a lot about this and I don't think people really realize, you know, and if you move into one side of a duplex and you buy a duplex with with this low money down and the lower credit score, you're basically you might not have a lot of cash flow if you live on the other side. But what you are is you're eliminating that huge expense that might have been for rent or something else, right? That's right, 100%. You know, everybody has their wacky landlord story. So I bought my first property living in one unit of the fourplex, renting out the other three.
Speaker 1 (00:18:16) - And like a duplex, like you said, where you might live. Did you tell me you were the owner? I because that's always thing. Yeah. You know, after a while after I got the new tenants in there, actually after I had moved offsite to another place, I didn't really want to admit I'm the owner. They ask all kinds of crazy things, but, you know, everything didn't go perfectly. For example, you know, shortly after I moved in, it was time for a tenant to pay the rent. It was the first that was due. They said they pay it the fifth. I was like, Oh, yeah, sure. Okay, whatever. Well, of course they didn't. I had to replace them. And you know how I qualified my next tenant in that vacant unit? What the qualifications were. Three females applied. They were attractive. So I let him move into the unit next to me based primarily on the fact that they were attractive. Well, that didn't work out very well.
Speaker 1 (00:19:00) - They had parties and they did not invite their landlord to the party. So everyone's got their wacky landlord story that's mine, but that's how you can start big. It is a good way to do it. And I think I don't think a lot of people realize that they can do that. So a lot of people I know are struggling with these affordability issues. So, you know, we've seen since our last podcast, you and I did, we've seen massive inflation, massive rent growth, obviously massive interest rate growth, which has driven people's mortgages up and doubling people, the mortgage payments up, plus we have all the inflationary components that I just mentioned. This is the best time to look at that house hack model because, you know, why wouldn't you grow.
Speaker 3 (00:19:38) - With inflation if you can do it with a with a two unit or four unit? Right now, there are some restrictions for for units and underwriters there something where if you go over that, it's a different kind of loan.
Speaker 1 (00:19:50) - That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:19:51) - Four units is the most you can do with that FHA loan in 3.5% down. So it's single family home, duplex, triplex or fourplex. And if you have VA Veterans Administration benefits, you can use that same plan with zero down. Believe it or not. It's a great way to start with the bank. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:20:07) - So you guys really need to look into this. If you could replace your living expenses large of the largest one, which is obviously typically rent and utilities and all that, then why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1 (00:20:20) - Yeah. And you know, here's the thing. Here's the takeaway. And I didn't understand this until I had owned that first fourplex for a couple of years. I think we've all learned we've all been influenced by the mantra that you don't want to invest with your money. You can build wealth profoundly by ethically employing other people's money. We're talking about doing it ethically. Providing people with housing that's clean, safe, affordable and functional. With that fourplex like I just described, I was using other people's money three ways at the same time.
Speaker 1 (00:20:50) - And you can do it too, because I use the bank's money for the loan and leverage. I use the tenant's money for the income that you were just talking about to offset all the building expenses and the mortgage payments. And then thirdly, I was using the government's money for very generous tax incentives, use other people's money three ways at the same time with the loan for income property, that's really going to accelerate your wealth building.
Speaker 3 (00:21:15) - That's right. That's right. And can you with that also do it with the down payment? That might be a fourth way.
Speaker 1 (00:21:21) - There are creative ways. For example, I know with FHA, sometimes you can get a gift. So that's a very astute question.
Speaker 3 (00:21:27) - Yeah. So that's another thing that a lot of people don't think about is, you know, I know with the FHA program, they're going to be looking at you. But there are there are ways to get gifts.
Speaker 1 (00:21:38) - That's right. And really use other people's money for the entire thing with keep using other people's money all that you can.
Speaker 3 (00:21:45) - The point is, guys, all can be OPM or other people's money. And that is the point. And so if you can't look into that, then it's now just an excuse. So let's talk about like you've done a very successful job of going out of state, out of the network and, and buying real estate. How have you done that? Because a lot of people are freaking out around, you know, how do I do I stay local? Do I go out of state? There's a lot of things to consider.
Speaker 1 (00:22:12) - I don't invest in my own local market. In fact, can I sell my last local meaning local to Anchorage, Alaska? I sold my last local apartment building last year. It's the first time in 20 years since I bought that first fourplex building. I don't own any local properties. I do all my investing out of state in investor advantage markets in the Midwest and South. And I know to some people it's scary to go out of state for the first time. You know, for some reason with stocks, people feel quite comfortable with, you know, buying stock for a company.
Speaker 1 (00:22:41) - They don't even know where that company's headquartered. But with real estate and something called turnkey real estate investing, that's one way to go across state lines. But really, here's my mindset in getting comfortable without estate investing, this is how I think of it. Can The property is only the fourth most important thing in real estate investing, and if you're thinking about investing, you often start by thinking about, okay, what would my next property be? It's important. But there are three things more important. Number one is you. What do you want real estate to do for you? This is what I like to share with people. Can Secondly is what market are you in? Thirdly, what's the team of professionals, especially your property manager, that you choose to surround yourself with? And then fourthly and only fourthly is the property. So let's go through that. It starts with you. What do you want real estate to do for you? Or are you looking for cash flow, which is common, or appreciation or tax advantages or a lifestyle benefit? Like maybe you want to live in it yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:23:37) - Once you've got that figured out what you want real estate to do for you, the market is the next most important thing. There is more risk with being in a little ho dunk market of 6000 people where half the employment is tied to the zinc mine than you think. So I like to be in larger metros have a diversification of economic sectors, something that you really excel in. Can So the market's at second thing because you need to have a place that's going to be filled with tenants. And when you buy your property, you need to have a reasonable expectation that 18 months down the road you're going to have another tenant that's going to be able to come in and fill that property. And then the third most important thing is the manager, your team. I mean, a bad property manager would drive a good property into the ground because you want this to be relatively passive. And fourthly and only fourthly is that property. And you know what happens. Can I see this happen? So often people get a 100% backwards.
Speaker 1 (00:24:30) - They go for three, two, one. First, they get all excited about a property and buy it because it has pretty blue shutters. Then they try to figure out if there's a good manager in the market because they don't like to get texts from tenants. And then secondly, they try to figure out the market that they bought in and it's too late. And then they go back to number one, which you're just so far out of line. And this is why a lot of people say that real estate doesn't work. So, again, the property is only the fourth most important thing. It starts with you market and team first. Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (00:24:58) - Find that key. They do go for three, two, one all the time. Right? It drives me nuts because, you know, as you know and most professionals go one, two, three, four. And I think what happens is if when they get to one, they're they're figuring it out. You know, they need you to start there because it certainly clears up the vision, right?
Speaker 1 (00:25:18) - Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (00:25:19) - And, you know, you intrinsically know this, but you just haven't thought it through before. Like, for example, you already know that the market is more important than the property. A giant mansion in a swamp outside Charleston, West Virginia, is not worth much, but yet a tiny 400 square foot efficiency apartment in the Tribeca neighborhood of Manhattan. Can be worth an awful lot. It's just reinforces the fact that the market's more important than the property and a lot of people get it wrong and always.
Speaker 3 (00:25:46) - Has been and always will be because you can you can screw up a purchase in a market that's going like this and you'll still look like a star.
Speaker 1 (00:25:55) - Yeah. And this will be true a decade and maybe even a century know. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:25:59) - So that's why the market is so important. So let's talk about the most controversial thing here, which is why there is 100% certainty, 100% of a housing crash. This is a I heard you talk about this and we talked a little bit about it for the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:26:16) - I said, let's just wait, wait, wait, Let's talk about it on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:26:20) - There is a 100% certainty of a housing crash. And one might be wondering, first of all, how could you say that no one has complete clairvoyance to know the future? And the reason there is a 100% certainty of a housing crash in this era is because it already occurred. It happened in April of 2020, More than three years ago. It was a housing supply crash, not a price crash. In fact, the fact that we have had a supply crash really hedges against any sort of price crash. So using Freddie Mac data and I shared the chart with you before I came over to this video here so that you could see the backup. There are so many ways to go ahead and measure the available supply of homes, but about 1.5 million is what you'll see, Fred. The Federal Reserve economic data, about 1.5 million has historically been the amount of available homes going back to 2016. It began to fall after that with what happened in the health crisis.
Speaker 1 (00:27:19) - It plummeted in April of 2020 to 600,000 units and it still hasn't rebounded and it's continued to fall. So it's a 60% supply crash, 1.5 million down to less than 600,000 now. And that's what hedges against a price crash. That's why prices are continuing to stay buoyant at whatever demand level. The supply is really low, and that helps keep a bid on property. And really, I'd like to share with you the profundity of the fact that we've had a supply crash, not a price crash. I mean, think about this. We're the most powerful nation in the world, by so many measures, were the most powerful nation as far as political positioning and our military and our currency and our brand, the most powerful nation in the world. And we have trouble housing our own people. I mean, we're talking about food, shelter, safety, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, base level stuff here. So it's actually a bigger deal then a price crash. If you think about it, you may very well see more more homeless people in your in your hometown, for example.
Speaker 1 (00:28:25) - So the crash already occurred. A supply crash, not a price crash. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:28:29) - It's important distinction, I think. I think people really need back up from this a little bit and understand where things are headed. You know, we have affordability problems. We definitely have homelessness issues creeping up. And so what really, really challenged everybody were these federal funds, increases in interest rates that went up. So all of a sudden, you know, we've also had the largest delta between rents and the the average mortgage price. So you got mortgages here. So rents and mortgages were kind of trending along at a pretty, you know, pretty equal amount. But now because of the whole prices that went up and the interest rates went up, there's a big, big gap between rents, even though rents have gone up. So that's also keeping people in their houses because they've got the 6%, let's say five, 6% interest rates, but they bought them at three. So they have this trapped equity, right? So so if you own a home that's 500 grand and you you have 3% on it, you're not going to move.
Speaker 1 (00:29:39) - Right? No, it's the mortgage interest rate lock in. Yeah, And that's a really astute point, Ken, because this plays in to the national dearth of supply on Iraq, 1.5 million available units down to 600,000. I talked to just lay people in everyday homeowners that have become landlords because they say, I don't want to sell my home. And it's 3.25% interest rate. So when I move out of it, I just want to hold on to that loan and rent it out. In the United States, you can't move your mortgage along with your property like that. So it's that interest rate lock in effect, that property, rather than coming up for sale, which would increase supply, doesn't it stays put. And almost two thirds of mortgage borrowers in the United States have a mortgage rate of 4% or.
Speaker 3 (00:30:24) - Less, a staggering number. It is. So I always tell people, Keith, you know, when I was growing up, cash was an asset, right? That was a liability. But now it's the opposite.
Speaker 3 (00:30:35) - Cash is now a liability because inflation. If you're if you have it in the bank is running faster and harder than what you're getting in interest. And now that debt at 3%, let's say, is an asset, you would actually be selling the property and you'll be getting rid of that asset. You can't borrow at 3% today because that is OPM or other people's money like we talked about.
Speaker 1 (00:31:00) - Right, Right. And if I borrow from a bank, say I'm a borrower and I want to take a loan from you. Well, of course, if I can do that at an interest rate, that's less than the rate of inflation. I want to do that because it's profitable. And how the mechanics of that work actually is when I repay Ken the bank in this case, every month that dollar debases on him faster than his interest can accrue on me. That's profitable for you if you can find that it's getting a little harder to find. But you can in some situations, still get interest rates lower than inflation.
Speaker 1 (00:31:33) - And inflation is such a fluffy number. We know that the CPI is manipulated with substitution and weighting and things, but if you can borrow at less than real inflation, that's exactly the transaction you're profiting from.
Speaker 3 (00:31:43) - What do you think real inflation is? Because I, I'm all over the Internet trying to figure this out, you know, and I go to all the shadow stats and all the things.
Speaker 1 (00:31:51) - Yeah, that's good that you're in shadow stats. There isn't really a good accurate way to measure inflation. I mean Ken and I a for next door neighbors were going to pay different rates of inflation. Say one of us is a vegetarian and the other eats beat then inflation in the price of steak affects one of us, but not the other. So if he commutes more than I do, gasoline prices affect him more than me. It's very difficult to pin down what the real rate of inflation is. There are hedonic reasons as well. Hedonic means pleasure seeking. So, for example, if home values go up 10% in a year, but now it's more common for homes to have quartz countertops in them a year later and they didn't have that in the homes of yesteryear.
Speaker 1 (00:32:33) - How do you adjust inflation for that? Because you're getting a better standard of living with quartz countertops. So this is why can and anyone has such a hard time pinning it down to what's the real inflation number. It's really nebulous.
Speaker 3 (00:32:45) - And I do know it's more.
Speaker 1 (00:32:48) - We do know it's more than what the CPI is reporting. How much more? No.
Speaker 3 (00:32:52) - One. I know it's true. It's all over the map. But I got to tell you, man, things are creeping up. You know, we were you know, my wife and I were you know, we just go to dinner and it's 100 bucks now. I mean, there's all these things that are there a lot more. But one thing is for sure, guys, if you can have an interest rate less than inflation, you're beating the market. That's the important thing to understand. And that's why, you know, go go the way back to Rich dad, poor dad with Kiyosaki. He was way ahead of his time when he said cash is trash.
Speaker 3 (00:33:27) - And, you know, savers are losers. And he doesn't mean that you are a loser. What he means is savers are losing money as compared with inflation. Back then, it was 2%. So now it's obviously more. Right?
Speaker 1 (00:33:41) - Yeah. And you know, really with inflation, I think the word is noticeable. No one talked about it when it was about 2% these past few years when it was right around the Fed target. It isn't until it became noticeable that it really became a thing. And you know, what do they say? What's Walmart greater say? They no longer say hello at the door. Instead, they just apologized for what's about to happen to you in there. It's noticeable.
Speaker 3 (00:34:05) - I noticed I was digging into the CPI or the Consumer Price Index recently for a video I was doing and I saw that housing was 44% of that number.
Speaker 1 (00:34:14) - Yeah. Between rent and owners equivalent rent, those two measures contribute to the CPI.
Speaker 3 (00:34:19) - So that's a lot. So think about that because I know, you know, what does that mean To me? That means that the Fed is not done increasing rates because, you know, I guess now they're reporting it at five.
Speaker 3 (00:34:33) - But if 44% of that 5% is housing in theory, then it looks to me like they're going to they're going to clip away at more of these federal funds rates. Right. What do you think?
Speaker 1 (00:34:46) - That's right. A lot of people think the Fed pivot will come later this year. The Fed pivot means when they stop hiking, which is increasing rates and begin to lower rates. I've got something really almost pretty trippy, really on interest rates to share with your audience here, Ken, because I think this is a real paradox that's going to blow some people away. What is it? So we know that mortgage interest rates have been up so much lately. And you know what happens with rising mortgage rates, right? When mortgage rates rise, home prices. You thought I was going to say fall, didn't you know? When mortgage rates rise, expect home prices to rise. And you might say what? That turns my whole world upside down. I mean, wouldn't one know that when mortgage rates rise.
Speaker 1 (00:35:38) - Well, that to. Creases affordability so one would afford less in prices would need to come down. And you know, the lens I like to look through a lot of times. Can we talk about applying economics to real estate? It's what I call history over hunches. I think it's really easy to have a hunch that when mortgage rates rise, well, obviously prices would have to come down due to impeded affordability. So maybe you're still wondering, well, what kind of upside down world would that happen? It's the world that you've been living in these past two years. What happened in 2021 and 2022? Home prices rose at a torrid pace, about 20% in 2021 and the following year last year, another 10% way beyond historic norms. And what happened with interest rates during that same time, they got doubled. I mean, they climbed a cliff. So that actually usually happens that when rates rise, prices rise. In fact, in the history over hunches, vane Winston Churchill is the one that said, the further you look into the past, the further you can see into the future.
Speaker 1 (00:36:44) - So let's open this up and look at the past, talk about why this happens, and then think about some lessons that you can learn from it. So in about the last 30 years, since 1994, mortgage rates have increased substantially nine times. That's defined as a mortgage rate increase of 1% or more. And during those nine times that mortgage rates rose, home prices rose seven of those nine times. This typically happens. And, you know, when I share this with real estate, people can a lot of them are blown away. They don't understand how they really don't even believe it. And I shared the data with you right before I came down here. You have the studio and maybe you can even put that chart up there to show people that I.
Speaker 3 (00:37:25) - Will do that.
Speaker 1 (00:37:25) - Jerry Yeah, but you know what? When I talk with doctors of economics, like the ones that I interview on my show, some of them aren't aware of it, but they all say, Oh yeah, I can believe it.
Speaker 1 (00:37:33) - I can understand how that would happen. All right. So what's going on here? Why does this happen? Why wouldn't mortgage rates rise? Would home prices rise? And, you know, there are for a couple of reasons. You know, can you and Donnell talk so eloquently about lag effects in the economy? Yeah, So that's one reason. But this can't completely be explained by lag effects because we have to think about what makes a person buy a home. Okay. We'll come back to that in a moment. But let's think about what happens when rates rise. Okay. Generally, the Fed is saying that the economy's hot, people are employed right now. There are some high profile tech layoffs for sure, but there are still more open job positions than there even are people to fill them. And this makes inflationary pressures heat up. So that's why they raise rates. When everyone has a job and you have an option if you get laid off to go to a second job and employers are competing for employees, what happens? You feel pretty secure in your job and what do you do when you feel secure in your job? You're likely to buy a home.
Speaker 1 (00:38:37) - So your situation, your income, your job security is an even more important factor than what mortgage rates are. So this is why, completely counter-intuitively and paradoxically, when mortgage rates rise, expect home prices to rise as well. And in fact, can. The only two times in the last nine that rates rose, that prices didn't rise as well. You know, they were they were 2007 and 2008 when there are really wacky aberrations going on in the market leading up to the global financial crisis. So, again, when rates rise, prices typically do two completely opposite of what most think.
Speaker 3 (00:39:12) - Yeah. And don't forget that part of the reason rates rise is because of the scarcity. So when you go from 1.4 million to 600,000, yeah, you have less just basic demand and supply. Less supply.
Speaker 1 (00:39:27) - That's right. And I think importantly, one needs to remember that there's less supply of both homes to buy and homes to rent. And even when one does want to buy and they continue to get shut out of the market with higher rates and higher prices than that obviously puts more people back in the renter pool, which is pretty good for guys like you.
Speaker 1 (00:39:45) - And I can know a lot of income priced right?
Speaker 3 (00:39:47) - That's why I did that video Renter Nation because it's not good by the way this you know housing is supposed to be balanced. So as somebody who owns a lot of rentals, we lose people. We lose people to single family home buying. That is the way it's supposed to be. Right? And then there are some people that when they're when they're done with the single family side, they want to come to rentals for convenience, for flexibility, for all kinds of things. So it's a natural stop. And so when one's out of whack or the other is out of whack, it's not necessarily good.
Speaker 1 (00:40:21) - No, it's not good. I mean, that impedes the upward mobility in really part of the American dream. Of course, you never want to lose a tenant from one of your apartments, but at least you can say, hey, congratulations, you moved up a rung or whatever. So this is the cost of any entry level. Housing is really high.
Speaker 1 (00:40:40) - In fact, when you parse the amount of available homes by the entry level type of, say, single family homes and duplexes, which tend to be the ones that make the best rentals, yeah, they're even more scarce.
Speaker 3 (00:40:51) - It's it's gotten worse. You know, I don't know that as a builder as you know, we built we can build entry level you know the.
Speaker 1 (00:41:00) - Most can't make it feasible.
Speaker 3 (00:41:01) - Cost the cost to build a house today is expensive.
Speaker 1 (00:41:05) - Yeah it really is. And you know, if you are looking to be a real estate investor in the 1 to 4 unit space, which is really an area where I specialize, if you can find a builder that builds entry level homes, I do know of a number of them in the Midwest and South, this could be a time for you to get a new build rental property more so than a renovated one. You know, that's really opposite of ten years ago. Ten years ago, we were still coming off the global financial crisis. Crazy.
Speaker 1 (00:41:32) - That was when the cost of property was even less than the replacement cost no one was going to build. Now you do have people building and, you know, can I know a number of these builders because mortgage rates are higher, that they're helping the investor, the individual investor down there. People like me, yeah, they're buying down the rates. So it's quite common for, oh, say on a $350,000 property for the builder to give you 2% of that 350 K purchase price. What is that, $7,000 at the closing table for you to buy down your mortgage rate? You also have turnkey newbuild companies that are giving 1 to 2 years of free property management. So new build typically costs more than renovated, which is why in the past a lot of investors like to buy a renovated property. But with the new builds and incentives like that and the fact that you're probably going to have lower insurance rates with new builds versus renovated, I think this really tilts toward you as the investors looking at property to your portfolio.
Speaker 1 (00:42:28) - It makes more sense now to look at new build than it has at any time in the recent past.
Speaker 3 (00:42:33) - Yeah, I know that like when we look at those big projects for for acquisition, you know, we're looking at what is it, what is the cost per unit for, let's say an acquisition in Phoenix versus building one? And in the last three years it was building all day long because the cost was 100,000 more per unit to buy crazy, crazy how existing product can get pushed up that high. And so all of a sudden that makes the building more affordable. Yeah, actually. And when you when you build the one next to the other, people are going to want the newer product all day long.
Speaker 1 (00:43:12) - Ken And maybe I can ask you a little something about being a builder. You know, I have learned from some builders that in a way some things are nice because they're not getting as much competition from resales on the market. We talked about why there aren't resales on the market. People want to hold on to their low mortgage rates so builders don't have the competition that way.
Speaker 1 (00:43:31) - But maybe you could let me know. Of course, it's going to vary by region and we've been talking very much nationally so far in the conversation here. But really, what's the lowest price point where it's still feasible as a builder to build where you have enough margin? Like what's the lowest price point on maybe a single family home? And then a larger. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:43:49) - So for me, it's mostly just apartments. So, you know, we'll go into a market. I'll give you a great example. We can buy in Austin, Texas, mid-nineties product, vaulted ceilings, nine foot ceilings, beautiful garages for $180,000 a door. Really nice. There's no way we can build that there for that price. Not even close. However, you take that exact project and you move it to Phoenix, it's 350 now. The rents are different, the expenses are different, the insurance is different, the property taxes are different. I understand the math. Is that the same? But, but on a per foot basis and a per unit basis, that's how different it is.
Speaker 3 (00:44:33) - So because of that, we're building in Arizona and buying in Texas. So now that can change. And also, you know that Austin could get really hot, those prices can go up and then we know that then it would change that dynamic. And so to your point, you always have to take a look at the difference between the deliverable. You know, do you buy The one thing I do like about buying is that it's immediate. You know, you could step into something immediate, make change immediate, whereas there's a bigger lag with the construction. So you do have some interest rate risk because you can't get a fixed rate loan on something that doesn't exist. It's land, it's air, and then it's built until it's in service, they call it. Then you can put fixed debt on it, but that's it. Up to that point, you're subject to a little bit of the whim of the fluctuations of the Fed and all the other things that that determine interest rates. So so you do have those things.
Speaker 3 (00:45:36) - We do love the new property. And so do our tenets. So when you build something new, people want to be there and they move out of that ten year or 15 year old product into something new. So there is that, plus you get a little bit more rent and, you know, all of those things. So there's positives and negatives for both.
Speaker 1 (00:45:55) - And so it's really, I'd say in the last ten years when you've seen the advent and proliferation of these build to rent companies, they're turnkey companies that build a finished product for you. That's the first thing that they do. And then the second thing they do is they place a tenant in it for you. And then thirdly, they hold it under management for you, the investor, if you so choose. Basically, it's those three things that define what a turnkey rental property is. So it's making more and more sense to do that with new build properties.
Speaker 3 (00:46:28) - Yeah, it certainly can and it's market by market. But you're right, you have to look at it each and every time.
Speaker 3 (00:46:34) - So before we wrap up, I'd like to talk about, you know, you always say invest in what's scarce, which I completely agree with. You know, And the other thing I like to say is invest the things that you can't print. So, you know, you could print dollars. You know, you can you can create a stock or ETF out of gold and all kinds of things, but you can't print gold, you can't print oil, you can't print trees. You can't print real estate. So let's talk about what's invest in what's scarce. So what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1 (00:47:05) - Oh, I love that. And we're so aligned on that. If I have any one investing theme, it comes down to one word scarcity. Yeah, I like to invest in what's scarce, not what's abundant and can be printed. You know, you don't even have to print anymore. It's just a few keystrokes and things like dollars and additional stock shares, abundant things, they can just be conjured into existence.
Speaker 1 (00:47:27) - So I avoid what's abundant like dollars in stocks and I focus on investing in what's scarce and is difficult to produce more of and take, yeah, real world resources to produce which is for me, it's real estate, gold and bitcoin that rounds out my scarcity theme. Why Real estate? It's a wealth builder really. Gold and bitcoin are not proven wealth builders. I think gold and bitcoin are maybe good places to move some capital once you've built it. Gold and bitcoin can be good stores of value gold really the classic store of value and bitcoin the real risk. But you know real world resources to produce. They're all scarce. Like we talked about the low supply of real estate. It has utility meaning usefulness. And yeah, when you buy a piece of real estate, a lot of people don't think about it this way, but break down all the commodities that you're buying when you buy a piece of real estate from drywall to gypsum, the copper wire to glass and all those sorts of things, it takes real world resources to produce that real estate.
Speaker 1 (00:48:27) - Real estate gives you advantages that gold and bitcoin don't like a reliable income stream and the ability to use leverage and terrific tax advantages. So that's why I'm a real estate guy. That scares gold, has a scarcity. What's really special about gold is it's one of the few things that's had enduring value for millennia, about 5000 years. You can say that about exceedingly few things. I guess you could make jokes about. It's intrinsic value. It's really not used that much industrially, but people have always flocked and gravitated toward that during times of uncertainty. And there's low supply inflation on gold that is very difficult to mine 2% more gold than it was the previous year. There were just challenges from exploration to mining and creating much more of this gold. And then thirdly, Bitcoin. You might not be that familiar with Bitcoin, but it takes real world resources, hardware, software and electricity to bring more Bitcoin into existence. There will never be more than 21 million bitcoins, so it has a fixed supply. You can't quite even say that about real estate and gold.
Speaker 1 (00:49:37) - A hard cap of fixed supply. More than 19 million bitcoin have already been mined. It's truly scarce and Bitcoin does have a role. It has some downfalls too, in case the government cracks down on it. I think that's the big risk with Bitcoin. But gold and dollars each have their downfall is difficult to transport gold across space due to its weight in its volume and security problems and then dollars. You can't transmit dollars across time due to inflation. Bitcoin is that one store of value. It's still volatile, it's still got some problems there, but it's the one store of value that you can transport across both space and time. You can't say that about dollars or gold. I'm a real estate guy. Real estate, you know, I think of it Ken is real estate is old and slow and analog and Bitcoin is young and fast and digital, so it is kind of a counterpoint. To the real estate with the Bitcoin. But yeah, if you need to build wealth and you don't have it yet, it's really difficult to invest in an asset class outside of real estate.
Speaker 1 (00:50:47) - Wealthy people's money either starts out in real estate or it ends up in real estate.
Speaker 3 (00:50:52) - Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I personally, I'm a big gold guy. I, I love being able to just throw a couple coins in my pocket and fly to wherever I want and pull them out and they're like, I got 4 or 5 grand.
Speaker 1 (00:51:04) - It's something tangible. You could actually look at it.
Speaker 3 (00:51:06) - It's nice. It's kind of nice to have that, you know, I don't particularly look at it as an investment, right? I look at it more as a hedge, an insurance policy, maybe a hedge against the dollar.
Speaker 1 (00:51:17) - Yeah, it's sort of like money insurance. I agree. And really a lot like an insurance policy. You hope you never have to use it, just like you hope you would never have to sell your goal. It's good money insurance. It's not a wealth builder. In my experience. It really just generally tracks inflation over time.
Speaker 3 (00:51:35) - Which is a good thing, by the way, especially now.
Speaker 3 (00:51:38) - I think what's interesting is have you had a chance to look at how much gold the central banks have been buying? I really have. So this is a really interesting point before we wrap up. So as you guys might know, central banks are in charge of printing money, basically. Well, other things, but one of those, that's one of them. So and they're kind of upset at the US dollar right now. Yeah. Because, you know, the world trades in US dollars and they're sitting on US dollars. And as we inflate and print US dollars, it looks like that a lot of them are buying gold, Right. And I would if, if they're they're trying to store their value in something that dollars so something other than dollars. I read an article the other day that said that we've been weaponizing the dollar against the rest of the world. Right.
Speaker 1 (00:52:28) - Right. So many foreign central banks, China, Russia and many more, they've really been loading up on gold these past few years.
Speaker 1 (00:52:36) - You see more and more international trade agreements, like you alluded to, cutting out the dollar and going through the yuan. You had the war in Ukraine, all these things increased geopolitical uncertainty. And that's why gold was on a tear and went over $2,000 recently.
Speaker 3 (00:52:49) - And then BRICs, BRICs is showing up. You know, that's the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South America. Right. And South Africa. Right. And I think there's a 30, 40 countries now. I've joined something like that.
Speaker 1 (00:53:04) - Yep. There's more and more. And they're not they're not pals of the United States.
Speaker 3 (00:53:07) - No, no. I don't know if you guys are watching this stuff, but it's something you have to watch. I mean, because your hard earned, your hard earned money is yours. And so you have to be a steward of it. You have to look at this stuff. It's not conspiracy theory stuff. You need to go out and Google this stuff and you'll see it's the dollar doomed. I don't know the answer, but I do know that you have to keep your eye on all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:53:30) - Right.
Speaker 1 (00:53:31) - Well, I'm glad you bring this up because one can speculate, one can make projections. But one of the few things that we do know and this is central to every investment that you make is that the dollar is going to continue to be debased. At what rate? We just don't know. But there are a few guarantees in life, but that's one thing that's virtually guaranteed. And really everything that we're talking about here hedges you against that. Again, dollars in stocks can easily be printed. Want to stay out of those sorts of checks?
Speaker 3 (00:53:59) - And if you could fix your rate while the government debases your dollar, you're winning.
Speaker 1 (00:54:05) - That's a winning formula for every million dollars in debt you have with just 5% inflation, you know the bank back 950 K after one year because wages and prices and everything, salaries are all higher. And with real estate, it's wow, your tenant pays all the interest for you while you're enjoying that debasement benefit. It's definitely counterintuitive. Get more debt. That's one of my favorite four letter words.
Speaker 3 (00:54:31) - Ha ha ha. Well, good. Keith, this has been awesome. So what's the best way people can reach you? I know I listen to your stuff, but I'm not sure everyone knows the.
Speaker 1 (00:54:40) - Get Rich Education podcast and get rich education YouTube channel. Real estate pays you five ways at the same time. Just regular buy and hold real estate. And it's actually okay that we didn't get into that because I made a free course with five videos, one on each of the five ways, just regular everyday buy and hold real estate pays and we're giving that away free right now at Get Rich education slash course. So it's a gift certificate and podcast and YouTube channel and again that free course real estate pays five ways which really reinforces why real estate is that generational wealth builder is a get rich education slash course. Awesome.
Speaker 3 (00:55:21) - All right, buddy, always great to see you.
Speaker 1 (00:55:23) - Love catching up, kids. Yeah. I hope that you enjoyed that vibrant conversation and a lot of original thoughts between Ken and I there.
Speaker 1 (00:55:36) - Ken is one of the more giving guys in the real estate industry. I like to hang around with the givers and reciprocate myself. One thing that I cannot take credit for as original is my part of the discussion where I was speaking about how the property is only the fourth most important thing in real estate investing. I learned at least some version of that from the real estate guys Robert Helms and Russell Gray. Now, when it comes to the prospect of a housing price crash, I think that a lot of the gloom and doom was that were completely wrong about that. Since 2020, you know, a lot of them have just dissipated or have gone away. Economic uncertainty that could not make home prices fall in any meaningful way like we've experienced the last three plus years and then last year a doubling of interest rates. Well, that couldn't really touch home prices either. Looking into the future, the rest of this year and into next year, I've got a good eight or so reasons here that home prices won't crash, although there could always be a black swan event, I suppose, from a pandemic to a direct hit by a meteor into the center of the United States.
Speaker 1 (00:56:46) - You are listening to someone that successfully invested through two recessions here. Home prices won't crash anytime soon because there aren't currently enough homes to house Americans. There are billions of dollars sitting on the sidelines right now just waiting for people to jump into the market. Lending guidelines have been strict for a decade plus, and that means those that own homes now can afford to make the payments. Home equity is also near record levels, so those that do have trouble making their payments, they wouldn't have to make a highly distressed fire sale. The government will do everything that they can to stop foreclosures, and on average, it takes 900 days to complete one. The population keeps increasing, although slowly US housing is still some of the most affordable in the world. And what higher interest rates do is that they also slow homebuilding. They slow that rate of new supply. This is all why housing prices cannot crash any time soon. We've got a fantastic show coming up here next week for you. If you're newer to this show or you just haven't seen my free real estate pays five Ways video course yet.
Speaker 1 (00:58:00) - Like I was telling Ken's audience about there, this is fundamental to you building the kind of life that you've always wanted for yourself. The course is truly free. I don't try to upsell you from that to some paid course. Perhaps the best thing that you can do for your financial future is to watch and understand all of the ways that you are paid. You can do that now at Get Rich Education slash course Happy independence Day. I'm Keith Winfield. Don't quit it.
Speaker 4 (00:58:35) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.
Speaker 1 (00:59:03) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education. Com.