Francis Collins, a physician and geneticist known for leading the Human Genome Project, discusses his remarkable journey from a rustic farm to groundbreaking scientific achievements. He recounts his transition from atheism to faith, sparked by profound personal experiences. The conversation intensifies as he addresses the controversial lab-leak theory regarding COVID-19, reflecting on trust issues in science and society. He also delves into his reflections on life, sacrifice, and the intersection of belief and scientific inquiry.
Francis Collins shares his journey from agnosticism to Christianity, highlighting the intersection of faith and empirical scientific understanding in his life.
He discusses the importance of trust in scientific institutions, emphasizing competence, integrity, and humility in countering the rise of misinformation.
Collins reflects on the moral intuition inherent in humanity and its implications for understanding a higher moral law beyond cultural evolution.
Deep dives
The Impact of Francis Collins' Work
Francis Collins has made significant contributions to the field of genetics, including his role in discovering the cause of cystic fibrosis, allowing many individuals to lead healthier lives. As the director of the Human Genome Project, he led the monumental effort to sequence all three billion letters of human DNA, which opened new avenues for understanding genetic diseases. His leadership has extended to the National Institutes of Health, serving three different presidents, illustrating his broad acceptance and value in both political camps. Collins' efforts have profoundly influenced modern medicine, paving the way for therapies and treatments that save lives.
The Intersection of Science and Faith
Collins initially approached science with a strictly empirical mindset, identifying as an agnostic during his academic career in physics and chemistry. However, his exposure to human suffering in medical school prompted him to confront life's existential questions, leading him to explore the concept of faith. This journey ultimately led him to Christianity, where he reconciled his scientific understanding with spiritual beliefs, recognizing that faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. Collins argues that his scientific background has enriched his understanding of faith, providing a framework to appreciate theological concepts alongside empirical evidence.
The Role of Morality and Awe in Finding Faith
During his exploration of faith, Collins reflects on the universal human experience of moral intuition and the concept of good versus evil. He questions where these moral standards originate if they are merely products of cultural evolution, suggesting that they point to a higher moral law. Additionally, moments of awe experienced throughout his life, often inspired by nature and beauty, were pivotal in his understanding of a divine presence. These experiences challenged Collins to consider the deeper significance of existence beyond a purely scientific explanation.
Trust and Credibility in Science
Collins highlights the declining trust in scientific institutions and experts, exacerbated by political polarization and misinformation. He explains that trust is built on three key aspects: competence, integrity, and humility, which remain crucial in distinguishing credible sources from those that may prioritize narrative over facts. The current climate often leads to suspicion towards scientific authorities, especially when their guidance conflicts with personal beliefs or political affiliations. This erosion of trust complicates public acceptance of scientific findings, particularly in the context of health and safety communications.
Navigating Doubt and Spiritual Revelation
Collins shares his struggles with doubt after converting to Christianity, a period where he wrestled with the validity of his beliefs and the implications of his scientific background. His quest for understanding led him to seek answers while also experiencing moments of profound connection that reaffirmed his faith. A significant turning point occurred when he sought divine reassurance during a prayerful experience, which helped him regain clarity about his beliefs. Collins emphasizes that doubt can be a healthy part of faith, prompting deeper exploration and understanding rather than leading to rejection.
Francis is a physician and geneticist whose work has led to the discovery of the cause of cystic fibrosis, among other diseases. In 1993 he was appointed director of the Human Genome Project, which successfully sequenced all three billion letters of our DNA. He went on to serve three presidents as the director of the National Institutes of Health. The author of many books, including The Language of God, his latest is The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and Trust.
Our conversation was entirely agreeable until we talked about trust, and his own handling of the Covid epidemic. I asked him in depth about the lab-leak theory and why he and Tony Fauci passionately dismissed it from the get-go, even as it now appears to be the likeliest source of the terrible virus. Things got intense.
For two clips of our convo — intense debate on the “Proximal Origin” paper outright denying a lab leak as the source of Covid-19, and Francis finding God after decades of atheism — pop over to our YouTube page.
Other topics: growing up on a rustic farm in Shenandoah; his parents creating a community theater; homeschooled until 6th grade; his amazing scientific accomplishments as a young adult; his scientism; his terminally ill Christian patients; the AIDS crisis; C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity; the First Mover question; Ross Douthat and “fine-tuning”; the multiverse; the limits to the materialist view; deism; cradle believers vs converts; evolution and sacrificial altruism; Socrates; Jesus dying for our sins; the doubting Thomas; how angels manifest; Francis Bacon; Richard Dawkins; being the NIH director during Covid; trust and mistrust in science; the early confusion in pandemics; tribalism; dismal safety standards at the Wuhan lab; gain-of-function; EcoHealth and Peter Daszak; intel agencies on lab leak; furin cleavage sites; Kristian Andersen; geopolitical fears over Trump and China; the opacity of the CCP; the Great Barrington Declaration; Trump threatening science funding at the Ivies; In Covid’s Wake; and if Francis has any regrets after Covid.
Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Claire Lehmann on the woke right, Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee on Covid’s political fallout, Byron York on Trump 2.0, Robert Merry on President McKinley, Sam Tanenhaus on Bill Buckley, Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson on the Biden years, and Paul Elie on his book The Last Supper: Art, Faith, Sex, and Controversy in the 1980s. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
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