108 | Carl Bergstrom on Information, Disinformation, and Bullshit
Aug 3, 2020
01:24:10
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Carl Bergstrom, a researcher studying information and disinformation in biology, joins the podcast to discuss the prevalence of bullshit in our world. He explores the flow of information in social networks, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic. They explore topics such as the challenges of misinformation on social media, the impact of data on persuasive arguments, and the divisive response to the pandemic. Bergstrom also discusses the importance of media literacy and regulating social media algorithms.
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Quick takeaways
Bullshit can be observed in various contexts, including the animal kingdom, and is not limited to deliberate lying.
The prevalence of data-driven arguments and the accessibility of social media platforms have contributed to the spread of misinformation and bullshit.
Education and training in critical thinking, media literacy, and quantitative literacy are crucial in combatting the spread of misinformation and bullshit.
Deep dives
Bullshitting: A Technical Term in Philosophy
In this podcast episode, biologist Karl Bergstrom discusses the concept of bullshit, which is different from lying in that it focuses on manipulating beliefs rather than deliberately telling untruths. Bergstrom explains that bullshit can be observed even in the animal kingdom, such as crustaceans using deceptive behavior or ravens tricking each other. He also delves into the role of information networks in human interactions and the spread of misinformation, particularly in the context of COVID-19. Bergstrom emphasizes the importance of understanding both the techniques used to recognize and combat bullshit and the responsibility of individuals to prevent themselves from promulgating it.
The Impact of Bullshit in the Data-Driven World
As information becomes more quantified, the use of data and statistics in persuasive arguments has surged in recent years. Bergstrom discusses how data-driven arguments can be misleading and lead to bullshit. He highlights the need for quantitative literacy and critical thinking to effectively evaluate and interpret data, charts, and graphs. The accessibility of social media platforms has further exacerbated the spread of misinformation, making it essential for individuals to think critically before sharing information. Bergstrom also suggests that educating and training people to think more carefully about statistics and data can help combat the prevalence of bullshit in the data-driven world.
The Challenges of Navigating the Media Landscape
In the age of social media, where individuals have become editors for one another, there are challenges in discerning and avoiding bullshit. Bergstrom explores the issue of people prioritizing their partisan or tribal allegiances over seeking the truth, leading to the spread of misinformation. He acknowledges the difficulties posed by social media platforms, where incentivization to gain attention and validate tribal affiliations can override truth-seeking and critical thinking. Bergstrom suggests that media literacy and quantitative literacy can equip individuals to discern and counteract these challenges in the media landscape.
The Role of Education in Combating Bullshit
To address the prevalence of bullshit, Bergstrom emphasizes the importance of education and training in critical thinking, media literacy, and quantitative literacy. He argues that individual responsibility and the ability to think carefully about information before sharing it is crucial in combatting the spread of misinformation and bullshit. Bergstrom concludes that while technology and regulation may play a role, educating individuals to become better consumers and evaluators of information is the most effective approach to navigate the complexities of the modern media landscape.
The Danger of Politicization in Science
The podcast episode discusses the danger of politicization in science, specifically in relation to the COVID-19 pandemic. The speaker expresses surprise and discouragement at the hyper-politicization of the crisis and the inability of the country to come together and agree on policies or scientific facts. The speaker highlights the way science is being used as a political weapon, with scientific papers being picked up and used to support partisan arguments. The speaker also discusses the challenges of interdisciplinary work and the clash between different scientific disciplines. Overall, the episode emphasizes the need for science to remain objective and independent from political agendas.
Openness in Science and the Reproducibility Crisis
Another key point discussed in the podcast is the greater openness in scientific research, particularly with the use of preprint servers and open discussions on platforms like Twitter. The speaker shares personal experiences of how open science has positively impacted their own research, allowing for quick feedback and engagement with other scientists. However, the speaker acknowledges the limitations of peer review as a guarantee of correctness and emphasizes the importance of explaining the scientific process to the public. The episode also touches on the reproducibility crisis and the ongoing efforts to improve scientific practices. Overall, the speaker recognizes the value of increased openness in science, while also acknowledging the need for critical evaluation and understanding of the scientific process by both scientists and the general public.
We are living, in case you haven’t noticed, in a world full of bullshit. It’s hard to say whether the amount is truly increasing, but it seems that everywhere you look someone is trying to convince you of something, regardless of whether that something is actually true. Where is this bullshit coming from, how is it disseminated, and what can we do about it? Carl Bergstrom studies information in the context of biology, which has led him to investigate the flow of information and disinformation in social networks, especially the use of data in misleading ways. In the time of Covid-19 he has become on of the best Twitter feeds for reliable information, and we discuss how the pandemic has been a bounteous new source of bullshit.
Carl Bergstrom received his Ph.D. in biology from Stanford University. He is currently a professor of biology at the University of Washington. In addition to his work on information and biology, he has worked on scientific practice and communication, proposing the eigenfactor method of ranking scientific journals. His new book (with Jevin West) is Calling Bullshit: The Art of Skepticism in a Data-Driven World, which grew out of a course taught at the University of Wisconsin.