TCC Podcast #65: Writing (or ghostwriting) a book with Laura Hanly

In this jam-packed 65th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with author and ghostwriter Laura Hanly about book writing and publishing. We met Laura a few months ago and after grilling her over breakfast, knew she’d be a great addition to the show. In this discussion we cover: •  how she became a book writer and publishing consultant •  what you need to think about before you write your book •  Laura’s thoughts on who exactly needs to have a book—if you are in a commodified service business, the answer is “yes” •  who needs to be on your book writing team and who should be your early readers •  what a realistic timeline for writing a book looks like •  price ranges and what she does to charge $40,000 per book project •  what you need to do to promote your book •  common mistakes writers make when they write their book •  the differences between self publishing and traditional publishing •  how to publish with Amazon Create Space and KDP •  the design options to consider when you’re ready to publish your book •  how to find clients as a ghost writer of books •  whether you should get a byline with the books you ghost write •  the mistakes she sees over and over on book projects We also asked about the rates she charged when she first started out (they were way too low), the mistakes businesses make when they “do” content marketing, who is doing content well today, and what to keep in mind when promoting your content. Ready for this? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Telling Your Brand Story (Rob’s book) The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck (Mark Manson’s rudely titled book) The Martian (Andy Weir’s book) Gary V Ramit Sethi Digital Marketer CreateSpace 99designs Laurahanly.com Content that Converts Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 65 as we chat with author and book consultant Laura Hanly about the process of writing a good book, how to choose between self-publishing and a formal publisher, what it takes to write a bestseller, and the tactics, strategies, and systems for promoting your content. Kira: Welcome, Laura! Rob: Welcome! Laura: Thank you so much! Very exciting to chat with you guys. Rob: I want to jump in and just say that we met at a mastermind event, and you and I, I think, had the opportunity to sit down at breakfast and for about 45 minutes or so, you sort of walked me through a lot of the process of writing a book and as we were chatting, it was one of those things where like, “Laura, we got to have you on the podcast!” Because there are a lot of people who listen to us that need to know the things that you know! So we are really excited to have you here. Laura: Yeah, I think it’s a big opportunity for a lot of people at the moment so I’m excited to talk about it. Rob: Cool! Well, why don’t we start with your story? Where did you come from; how did you start doing what you’re doing? Laura: So, I grew up in Sydney in Australia. I studied writing and publishing at university and worked at a big publishing house there in Australia for a few years. And I think about 2011, the industry really started downsizing and they weren’t kind of learning the lessons that we had all seen go down in the music industry in terms of, you know, adapting to the new technologies that were becoming available, and I thought, mmmm, I really need to get myself organized and become a bit more independent. So I moved online, sort of started learning copywriting and internet marketing and direct response and all that kind of thing, which was great for a couple of years, and basically started offering content marketing services to ecommerce companies and B2B consultants. And one day, somebody asked if I would be willing to try and write a book with him. Having come out of the publishing industry, I thought, you know, I’ve got a fairly good handle on that process, so we’ll give it a go, and over the last couple of years, that’s become the main thing that I’m doing so at this point, I advise on content strategy for some people, but my main thing is helping people write books about their businesses. Kira: So let’s talk about what that actually looks like when you work with a client. Because to me, it sounds so daunting and huge! Where do you start with your client when they’ve hired you to write a book with them? Laura: So a lot of people really feel overwhelmed by this process of writing a book and I completely understand that because it is a big undertaking, especially if you’re still running a business day to day, or you know, if you’ve got a lot of demands on your time. Or even if you’re in that stage where you’re really hustling to get more clients and you know that a book would help you do it but you just don’t know how to find the time to get it done. So the first thing to kind of cut through that sense of overwhelm is to identify what function the book is going to serve in the business, how you’re going to use it as part of your marketing, and how customers are going to be more interested in working with you as a result of reading this book, and then, start developing a structure. So we’ll go through and talk about this sort of 10-12 key points that you want to touch on throughout the books, the main lessons that you want people to go away with, and then break those down into sub-categories and those will become the chapters and the themes for each of those chapters. So once we’ve got all of that mapped out, the next step is to start doing a series of interviews. So normally the interview process is sort of 10-15 hours worth of calls between me and the client, and I will ask them everything I can possibly think of about all of those things that we’ve outlined together. My role at that point is to be an advocate for the reader, so to find out all of the information that business owner knows, all of the experience they’ve gained over the last few years working in their business, what differentiates them from their competitors, the things that make them really unique and worthwhile for their customers to know. Once we’ve sort of gone through all of those interviews and I’ve asked them a million questions to the point where they’re just absolutely sick of talking to me, I will go off and write, separating all of that material into written formats. I kind of go through all of that with them and then I do the actual technical work of putting it together. Rob: So let’s say I had an idea for a book that I wanted to write. You mentioned identifying 10-12 sub-categories that become the chapters. Is there a formula for that kind of a thing? Like, you start out with the first couple are origin-oriented and then the next couple are maybe more informational and then the next couple start to be more teaching; is there any kind of formula like that or is it just sort of what you know and getting it down? Laura: It varies, but I think that model is kind of a good rule of thumb, so having an origin story, then having a theoretical stuff, more sort of information driven, and then moving onto actionable teaching material is great. Or you can do that sort of within each chapter, so introduce a concept, give some backstory about where that lesson came from, and then be actionable toward the end of each section. It sort of depends on the actual material of the book as to how it will end up being structured, but if the client is looking to have a book that’s more of a teaching tool, then certainly, I try to have lessons in each section, whereas if it’s more say, a life’s work, or they’re trying to write the definitive piece of content on a particular subject, then it’s going to have that longer arc in the teaching material will be more towards the end. Kira: So Laura, I’m wondering if you think everyone should have a book? Every business owner should have a book under their name at a certain point? You know, maybe within five years of their business; should I have a book as a copywriter to help grow my business? Is it a staple that is really critical after a certain point? Laura: I think it’s critical for people in some categories. I wouldn’t say that every business owner needs to have one, and certainly if you’re in the B2C space, I think it’s less important just because consumers say if you have, you know, a clothing brand, the consumer is unlikely to read the story of how the business got started in book format from the founder, because the founder is not having a direct impact on that customer’s experience of buying from the company. So if you have a B2B business then I think it’s definitely much more important because you are probably having interactions personally with the clients. You’re probably charging a lot more, which is a factor in—books are a great authority piece, which make people much more comfortable paying higher price points because they can see that you’re an authority and that you’re an expert, so it’s a way to build a bit more rapport and a bit more trust with a client than you would normally be able to just in your general interactions. I think, if you have a service business, and you work with other businesses, particularly if you are in a slightly commoditized market, which content and copywriting are sort of becoming, I think it’s a really powerful way to differentiate yourself and take your service from being a commodity to being a specialty again. But as I said, you want to be fairly well established,