OC182 - Dr. Judith Grisel Author of Never Enough: The Neuroscience and Experience of Addiction

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Hello Loves,

Thank you for downloading the podcast, my name is Arlina, and I’ll be your host.

 

In case we haven’t met yet, I am a certified Recovery Coach and Hypnotist. I am obsessed with all things recovery, including neuroscience, reprogramming the subconscious mind, law of attraction, all forms of personal growth and spirituality. I have been practicing abstinence from drugs and alcohol since 4/23/94, and that just goes to show, if I can do it, you can too.

 

Today I’m talking with Judith Grisel. She holds a PhD in Neuroscience, she’s a professor at Bucknell University and author of the highly impactful book “Never Enough: the Neuroscience and Experience of Addiction”

 

What is so interesting about her is that once she got sober, like a lot of us, she wanted to help others suffering from addiction, but she took it to a whole other level! She got her Phd in neuroscience to try to cure addiction! I’m so in awe of her. 

 

This book is full of the mechanics and mechanisms of addiction which really takes the shame out of having mental illness because it demonstrates that anyone could fall prey to addiction. I listened to the audio version of the book, which, btw, I loved  because her voice is so soothing, but I also got the paperback because I wanted to really study some of the concepts she goes into. Plus there’s a few pictures in it so there’s that.

 

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did! With that, please enjoy this episode with Judy.

 

Transcript:

Arlina Allen  0:08  

Let's see. Judy, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm really happy to be here. Arlina is it okay to call you, Judy? Oh, yes. Dr. Chris. No, please. Thank you. Well, listen, I am so excited to talk to you. I have your book. I posted on social media, I was like, I have a big announcement. And I'm talking to the author of never enough the neuroscience and experience of addiction. those that know me know that I'm completely obsessed with the mind the brain. I know sometimes people think of those as two different things, but we can kind of get into it. But what I thought was so good about this book, right? And what I love about science in general, is that it has a way when we you understand sort of the mechanics of it, it kind of depersonalized us and helps us to answer or resolve the things like guilt and shame which she which seemed to me to be a block or a barrier to healing. So I thought maybe we could start first with your a little bit of your story. Like what is I know you've been sober for 35 years? Congratulations.

 

Unknown Speaker  1:29  

It is long time. Yeah. really grateful. Yeah, I it's funny that you mentioned guilt and shame, because I, I could see in my own life, how initially, drugs end up including alcohol were sort of the self or guilt and shame that was just it is still sort of deep in my bones. I'm not sure if it's genetic, or environmental or what, but I am, well acquainted with self criticism, and just, I guess, feelings of unworthiness. And I almost didn't realize that until I had my first drink, which was right about the time of my 13th birthday. And I was a good drink. I mean, I had little sips here and there, but I got loaded for the first time at that age. And more than anything else, it was this great relief, because I suddenly either didn't care or was made, you know, kind of transiently whole in a way that was so profound, so people talk about it all the time. But it did literally feel as if that absence was running over and you know, with fullness, I guess and so, I because I was off to the races pretty pretty dramatically. I grew up in a I guess there's no such thing as a typical home, but I was certainly fairly advantaged and you know, had no big traumas. I guess that's also kind of a funny thing to say. But you know, in light of how hard it is to grow up, I think I was fairly on the easy half anyway. And, but I got this alcohol, I spent 10 years taking as much of every single mind altering drug I could find. I remember one time I found some pills and I just, you know, took them, I was kind of, and I still am, I guess a little bit all or none so I, I was definitely I went from none to all. And as a result, I was kicked out of my first school in 10th grade. It was a, you know, girls Catholic school, so they didn't go for the kind of thing I was up to. And then to colleges I was expelled from and I was homeless intermittently, often, I contracted hepatitis C sharing dirty needles. And I hated myself really, I did hate myself that was probably my bottom was as kind of self loathing, so that I was just a teeny bit unwilling even though at the time, right around the time my 23rd birthday, I thought, drugs and alcohol were the solution to my problems of the cause. I was sort of willing to go to what I thought was going to be like a spa, an educational spa, which they was treatment. This was in the 80s so I had no idea about drug treatment at all. I just heard the word treatment and it seemed to be something I deserved. So anyhow, I ended up in what was more like a hospital for crazy adolescence and, and there without drugs in my body for a few weeks, I got kind of scared at the disaster of my life. And, and I guess I wasn't you know, it's an interesting thing as we talk about how we have to sort of see it and be willing to change. I was barely willing, I feel like I was kind of plucked out of my situation. And I had just enough grace or openness. I am sort of an experimentalist at heart. And I, I think I figured they were all saying to me from going on too much, by the way. Arlina But anyway, I was saying, you know, if you want to live, you're gonna have to quit using and I thought, No way. There's got to be another way work around. Yeah, work around, there's a backdoor somewhere. So I figured I would cure my addiction was going to take me seven years, I was going to stay clean for that seven years. Well, I solved the disease of addiction, which is what everybody was saying. And then I would use and so I was open minded and totally, you know, arrogant ignorance, naive, I don't know. But I, I was willing to do seven years, I guess,

 

Arlina Allen  6:26  

what was the seven years to get your degree? You know,

 

Unknown Speaker  6:28  

no, I think I wasn't thinking that clearly. I figured that I started when I was 13, I was 23, I decided I wasn't really in terrible shape, you know. So it was like seven years of intense addiction. Somehow it seemed balanced to me, if I could clear it up in seven years, and then there was just no way you were gonna tell me, I was going to spend the rest of my life without drugs, which is what my life is completely about by that time. So yeah, I was scared enough to be willing enough to be open enough to try a different way temporarily. And I remember when seven years came, by the way, and went and I looked around my life was a zillion times better. It wasn't, you know, easy, by any means. But it was definitely better. And my curiosity had kind of come back. And so I, you know, kind of a data time is, you know, stuck it out. And so here I am, 35 years clean and sober, still have not cured addiction, still very interested in the role of science in understanding and treating and preventing addiction, but also recognize that there's a lot that science doesn't know. And so, yeah, I think, yeah, it's been a it's been a fun, rich trip.

 

Arlina Allen  8:07  

It's fun. That's, that's awesome. I mean, we were people who insist on having a time that's for sure. I think that's so amazing that so so you became abstinent at 23. From then on, he became abstinent.

 

Unknown Speaker  8:22  

I mean, I smoked a few cigarettes and I'm completely addicted to coffee, but I don't think that his account had other than nicotine, any mind altering chemicals, and I've been tempted many times, so it's not like I just said, you know, that's it for me, I guess. Yeah, just a long, long time.

 

Arlina Allen  8:46  

You know, I knew that you and I were going to be friends when you talked in your book about like, the your love of weed. Oh, my gosh, if I there was a period of time that if I was awake, I was high. Right? I grew up in the church and the preacher's daughter. The pastor's daughter once told me she's like, I'm high. So often that not being high was as my altered reality. And I was like, Oh, my God, you're my hero. I want to be just like you. And I was. But in your book, you talk about how I see after I got sober. It took me a little over a year to go a single day without wishing for a drink. That is rough. But it was more than nine years before my craving to get high abated during that, and I think I'm so glad that you've mentioned that because I think a lot of people especially those who are 12, step oriented, are you know, they hear stories about like, the obsession to use is lifted, or they're on this pink cloud. And I think for people who don't have that experience, they feel They're doing something wrong. Right. But

 

Unknown Speaker  10:02  

I think for Bill Wilson, right, it was just an overnight thing. And for many of us, it's sometimes slowly and for I was definitely have a slow variety. I, I really, and when I say, you know, for the craving to abate, I really seriously wish to get high for most days, those nine years. Yeah. And I, you know, the more time that went by the more, I could see what was at risk. So when I first got clean, you know, there's nothing to lose, because you're at rock bottom. But, you know, as a result of putting one foot in front of the other things got much better. So, you know, then I could kind of see that, and then I remember so well, I can almost taste it the experience of not wanting to smoke, and I can remember how all the sudden, I was okay to be in concerts that were indoors with good weed around me. Or, you know, I was sort of indifferent. Like I was like, I had been to alcohol. You know, I'm, I have served alcohol to friends. And I was kind of in that position, like, I don't care if you smoke or not. And then it got I had the craving come back. I was, I was joke about this, but right around menopause. I just knew that, for me, an antidote to the anxiety and just sort of the brittle angst of hormonal changes, I guess was going, you know, could be smoking. And, you know, anxiety is so epidemic, and I hadn't really had a ton of it until, and there was other things going on in the world, we can just say at that. But, anyhow, oh my gosh, and I think I say this in the book, too. But I, I, at the time, I was thinking maybe I'll get cancer and my doctors make me smoke. And then little I do you know, I mean, I was wishing for, you know, some kind of serious illness. So

 

Arlina Allen  12:23  

our minds play funny tricks on us, it doesn't matter how long you're sober. It's just weird layer. If that was ever a solution in your mind. I've heard that dopamine is like the Save button. Right? I don't know if you've ever heard of Dr. Andrew Haberman, he talks about how in nature like a deer that will find water, they get like dopamine is released. And that's how they remember where the water is. And it's almost similar for us. Like when we do something that makes us feel good. Dopamine is then released. And it helps us to remember what made us feel good. And I feel like it's burned in my psyche that if I take a bomb hat that I'm going to feel good. And I have other solutions, but it's all it's I don't think that idea is ever gonna leave me, you know, 27 years sober. I was telling you earlier that my younger son went to rehab. And this all was predicated because we found a Bag of Weed in his room and duty, I had not held a bag of marijuana for almost 30 years. And when it was in my hand, this plastic baggie, it was like I was a teenager again. And my inner drug addict was like, well, maybe we should, maybe we could maybe maybe. And I was like, I was actually a little alarmed almost a little bit of shame. Like seriously, after all this time, after all the work I've done. It's still there. I mean, it's just so engrained in my brain, I guess.

 

Unknown Speaker  14:00  

Absolutely. And I think the one of the interesting things about the story, you just told us that the ability of a drug to make to release dopamine is different across the population. So for some people, that marijuana let's say, or alcohol doesn't do much to that for me, and for other people. It's really a potent signal. And I think that is part of the reason some of us are more at risk than others and and also the reason why it's not a really reasonable argument to say, you know, why don't they just put it down because it is like a thirsty person finding water as opposed to somebody who's completely satisfied finding water, you know, you can take it or leave it. So I think that's true. And also the brain. You know, learning is absolutely persistent. So Pretty sure we will both be I guess subject to those kinds of, you know, triggers through our until we die.

 

Arlina Allen  15:11  

Yeah, maybe, maybe this is a good time to ask you, you know, what is what's different in that? So you're you have your PhD in neuroscience. And you know, he got sober and went on this quest to cure addiction. What have you found that's different about the brain of people who get addicted so quickly?

 

Unknown Speaker  15:34  

Mm hmm. Well, I guess the, what I want to say first is that it's not simple, I thought I was gonna be a little switch that we were going to discover, and I wasn't alone in this, I think this was scientific understanding in the 80s, we'll find that, you know, broken switch or molecule or circuit and fix it. It's definitely not that way. So the causes of addiction are very complex and intersectional. They involve differences in dopamine and other genetic liabilities, or protective factors that make the the initial sensitivity to a drug, different across different people. So some try a drug for the first time and absolutely love it. About a third of people, for instance, try opiates and don't like them at all. And they usually try them in the doctor's office, but they find them aversive. So obviously, that's a good protective,

 

Arlina Allen  16:40  

meaning, meaning they don't like the way they feel. Yeah, so weird to me,

 

Unknown Speaker  16:45  

largely genetic. I know. Right? So very big individual differences. And then there are sex differences. So women tend to appreciate drugs that provide relief. And then justice is overgeneralizing a little bit Sure, overall, tend to appreciate drugs that make them feel good. And so women don't want to feel bad, and drugs help with that, certainly, especially and men like to feel good. Another big factor, and probably the largest factor more than genetic liability is adolescent exposure. So kids, like your son and my daughter are tuned into Well, they have, they have a particular kind of brain that is the adolescent brain that is really prone to trying new things, really prone to not worrying is certainly abstractly worrying about consequences. So they're less cautious. And they, they want to buck against whatever they're told, they shouldn't do. And those three traits like novelty seeking, and risk taking, and not really caring about consequences are ones that help them to become adults, if they just listened to their parents until they were 35. No one would really like that. So they they're designed to kind of say, not this, you know, I'm making my own way, which would be good if there wasn't so many high potency, dangerous ways of escaping at their fingertips. So I think through most of our evolutionary history, these you know, kids having that tendency is is no problem. The other thing that kids have in their brains are different about is that, and we all know this, they are terrific at learning. I'm teacher, and it's crazy, because and you probably noticed this with your own children, but they don't seem to even be paying attention. yet. They are like sponges information really goes in. And if they were learning French, or if they're learning addiction, both ways, their brain is really quick to take the experience and build it into the structures so that it's lasting, and I can learn French, or addiction, but your chances are so much lower. So if you start using any addictive drug, before you're 18 you have about a 25% chance of developing a substance use disorder. And the earlier you start using, the higher the chance, I started 13 so you know it was basically more likely than not. And that's because 13 year olds are great at picking up new information, much better than 33 year olds. So they if you if you Wait, on the other hand till you're 21, your chances are one in 25.

 

Arlina Allen  20:06  

Wow, I told

 

Unknown Speaker  20:07  

my kids that and I tell my students that and they all ignore me. Why? Because they're high novelty seeking high risk taking, and they don't really want to listen to the, you know, concerns or worries. I mean, that's not how they're designed. So we're in a kind of a perfect storm for them. And that, that is the best predictor of developing a problem starting early is starting or like,

 

Arlina Allen  20:30  

you know what terrifies me nowadays I have a nephew who's 26 years old. And he's had four friends died from accidental fentanyl overdose, because for whatever reason, drug dealers are putting fentanyl and everything. And you know, these are pretty well adjusted kids. I don't think it's I know that there's a certain percentage of the population who indulge a little bit who don't have a disorder. Or maybe that's Yeah, is that is that true?

 

Unknown Speaker  21:02  

Well, it's, it's more true if you start at 26. And if you start at 16, as I just said, but I think the reason that nose and everything is because it is so is it a traffic, it's so so potent, that a tiny bit can get the whole town high. So it's really advantageous to traffickers. And also, because people are having access to more and more chemicals. And when they start early, especially their reward pathway, the dopamine pathway we've been talking about is kind of desensitized, so they can't, you know, have a cup of wine coolers that doesn't do the trick at all anymore, they need something a little more, because they're sort of immune to the that dopamine, squirt? So yeah, unfortunately, I think that's another reason it's not gonna. We, I think focus, we've also noticed lately that there's more and more overdoses from methamphetamine, and then from somebody who's been looking at the trends for a long time, it's always be something and there's always going to be more potent, whatever. So it's not the drug itself, as much as this very narrow ledge that more and more of us are on trying to, I guess, medicate reality. And and so, you know, I think, I don't know how that is for your nephew. But it's a terrible lesson to have to learn for all of us.

 

Arlina Allen  22:51  

It's just, it just makes me sick. I mean, I think there was a report that was released, I think it was at the end of March, there was a 12 year period that they were measuring overdoses that ended in March, and I think they track like 80,000 deaths. And, and I just think about all the families like all the mothers, all the all the fathers and siblings, and just everybody that's affected by so many deaths, and

 

Unknown Speaker  23:19  

and I think a 40% increase in those deaths over the last year with COVID. So the isolation as Alicia is, has made, and also the the higher, you know, the more likely you are to find fentanyl, and whatever it is you're taking at, which is just hard to prepare for I think, biologically. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it's tragic. It's so tragic.

 

Arlina Allen  23:50  

And then and then so my mind naturally goes, Well, what can we do about it? You know, it's like, we can understand, I love how, you know, science will sort of break down the mechanics. And once we understand, you know, alcohol is addictive drugs are addictive. I mean, there's a reason why they're illegal, right? It's because they're so harmful. But, you know, and then we can get into the causes, right? Like you mentioned, it's a very complex issue, you know, we you mentioned, do you that you didn't have any big trauma growing up, but I feel like, you know, we were sort of in that generation where we were not like things like ADHD and anxiety and depression weren't really talked about a whole lot. And we really didn't know how to treat those. And so our parents handled us with a lot of tough love. I got a lot of tough love and you know, from reading your book and listening to your interviews, it sounds like you were raised with that as well. And then your Can we just talk a little bit about your dad, like I wonder what it was. We talk a lot about science and it sort of leaves God out a little bit. But in my experience, it feels like there are things that are sort of serendipitous or magical about the unusual things that happen that lead us to a life of recovery. Like, what was your dad's role and your recovery?

 

Unknown Speaker  25:23  

Um, yeah. So, so much in that question, especially, I guess I want to start by saying that I agree that we did not recognize trauma, and anxiety and all mental illnesses, wait, their response was, was so different, I think. And in my house, it was to push through both my father's parents were immigrants. And he dealt with life by controlling everything he could. And that worked great until he, you know, met 13 year old me. And I was absolutely out of control, by definition, and

 

Arlina Allen  26:11  

he would have been terrifying to me.

 

Unknown Speaker  26:13  

I was terrified. And I was I was, like, determinately, out of control. I mean, that was my goal to be absolutely out of control. And the more both my parents tried to kind of constrain me, the less manageable I was, and I guess I, I don't think I'm unique in this. I mean, I've raised three children. And so it's something built into the teenage neurobiology. And I had it probably in spades. So his way of life because

 

Arlina Allen  26:45  

you're smart, smart kids are harder to race.

 

Unknown Speaker  26:48  

I don't know. I'm also, one thing I like about myself more than if I have any smartness is, is that I'm, I guess, strong willed. And so I don't know if that actually goes with intelligence or not, but I'm not the one who's following so much. And so I wasn't named, I wasn't influenced really by too much of what people, you know, just like you said, you know, you try to get the information out. Drugs are dangerous, but it doesn't really have an impact my kids have grown up with man, they've been sort of forced to look at graphs and things. And, you know, they'll say to me, my daughter said to me the other day, you know, I know all this. But and that is sort of how I was, and I didn't know that much. My mother was giving me a reader's digest reprints you know, of how lead would damage your ovaries and stuff. But anyway, you're like,

 

Arlina Allen  27:49  

Oh, good, I will get pregnant.

 

Unknown Speaker  27:51  

No, I didn't. Yeah, wasn't on my radar at all. But anyhow, my father, because I think it was so painful to be around me. And to watch me his strategy, which is kind of in our family, I guess, was just denial that he even had a daughter. So during a period, after they kicked me out of the house, right about my 10th birthday. He, he would, and he would say that he had two sons. It was just too much for him. And this is kind of the way he is. So it's, and I think it's fragile. That's what he was. And he was raised to be fragile, because it was a lot to worry about, because they were poor immigrants and you know, a million ways to not make it and I think that's common for a lot of people today. So my father was just able to block it out. And we have a family friend who I dedicated the book to father, Marty Devereaux, who is this kind of an unbelievable, interesting person. He's in his 80s. Now, we're still good friends, but he is a psychologist, and has a lot of experience with addiction and also a Catholic priest. And he told my father, and don't my father's not really Catholic. I mean, he was raised Catholic, but that doesn't mean too much these days. So anyway, he

 

Arlina Allen  29:19  

Where was he from? Marty Devereaux?

 

No, I'm sorry. Your said Your father was an immigrant. Oh,

 

Unknown Speaker  29:24  

he was born in Atlantic City. But his mother was from Slovenia, and his father from Switzerland. And they met in Central Park. They were both, you know, one was a baker one was a housecleaner. And they sent two sons to college and wow. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's a pretty typical American story. Yeah, yeah. But um, anyway, Marty said take her out to dinner and bring her flowers like on a date. Well, I have No idea what how my father did this because he's, he's just not the type to waste any money on flowers, or two. And I was when I say I think I tried to convey this in the book. But when I imagined myself now at that moment, I was pretty deplorable. I was probably quite smelly and dirty. I was, at this point, sort of living in a one bedroom apartment with many people. And I was pretty gross. So anyway, this is when you were 23. I was not quite 23. So his takeaway? Yeah, so we he picked me up and you know, so not only was I gross, I was completely belligerent. I, I thought that my parents were terrible. And I didn't want any part of their fascist, you know, existence. And yet, I deserved a nice dinner, of course. So my big dilemma, I will not I really can still almost feel this was how we were going for early bird dinner, because it's my dad. And I'm very frugal. Yeah, he is wealthy and frugal. And

 

Arlina Allen  31:27  

that's how I get wealthy.

 

Unknown Speaker  31:28  

Yeah, I mean, this is sort of the first thing I guess. But anyway,

 

Arlina Allen  31:32  

and that was a dad begged my dad, maybe it is a dead

 

Unknown Speaker  31:35  

thing. He was also an airline pilot, so just not extremely cautious. He still is. And he's, he's in his 80s today, and we have a great relationship. But anyway, I was so stuck, because when he was picking me up, maybe quarter to five, but I had to figure out between 11 when I woke up and six hours later, how to be not too high when he came, you know, high enough, but not too high. And of course, this is harder and harder to achieve at this point in my life, because I could either be passed out or getting ready to be I mean, it was just hard to find that place. So anyway, he picks me up, he takes me out. And he said, and we talked about this still. Dude, I just wanting you to be happy. And I guess I should say, he doesn't remember saying that. But I know he said it. Because it was the most unlikely words that could ever come. And this is sort of what you were getting at, I guess where did those words come from? They're not my dad. My dad was worried about my teeth and the way you know, a lot of things but not my happiness ever. No, probably it's hard for him. And I had of course, no. No adequate response to that because I was absolutely miserable. And it went right into my heart. I fell apart. Yeah, it was a funny like tears

 

Arlina Allen  33:10  

in my eyes. Just to think that the hard ass dad was so sweet, right? When you needed it the most. I know,

 

Unknown Speaker  33:17  

you know what he tells me now it's funny. He, I was so out of it. I guess I don't remember the flowers. But he took me in his very clean car and my friends I guess to the beach to go for a swim that same day, that same after dinner. And we got to fill the sand. And that's what he remembers as his biggest stretch. And what I remember as his biggest stretch is him reaching across the table with his heart and saying, I want you to live basically. I mean, he sent me how I think he he met a lot by that. And my mother was not invited to the dinner. I hadn't spoken with her in a long time either. But she had been researching treatment centers for years she had had a court order actually in Florida, there's an act where you can commit somebody because of their addictions. And they thought over that a lot. But anyway, next thing I knew they flew me to a treatment center, which of course I had no idea what I was getting into and saved my life really. That place did. So I feel really fortunate that I had that opportunity to wake up a little bit as I think for the chances are that my father wouldn't have said that my mother wouldn't have had the resources to know what to do and I would have died on the streets probably not too much longer.

 

Arlina Allen  34:52  

I feel like that really speaks to you know, people just didn't have solutions, right and they get so far straighted that their only choice is to disown right. Like I had that same experience with my mom, she disowned me on a regular basis, like she was an immigrant from Mexico. And although my father was, you know, his, his people have been here a long time. Like, they didn't know what to do with me either. And, you know, my dad was always the sweet and nurturing one, but he was, you know, he's former Marine, he was a government guy, he was kind of a hard ass, and in a lot of respects, but, you know, our parents, you know, just, it's just speaks to the love of a parent, you know, you want to save your kids. You know, you see your kids are suffering and like, my mother just didn't know how she was so frustrated that she would disown me on a regular basis. But I think when I think it's the contrast between like, a little bit of sweetness goes a long way, because it's not what we're used to. It's so shocking. Like, shocking to the system,

 

Unknown Speaker  36:00  

let's thought about it a lot, because I do think there's a, I had a boyfriend at the time who died. Oh, overdose. And his parents were extremely sweet. So it's hard. And you could say they sweeted him into his last big use, but um, I don't know that there's a recipe I think if if there was one thing that, that I tried to do with is to show up and be honest, and I think it was so painful for my parents, both of my parents to just grapple with what happened to their little girl, that their tendency was to not show up. And I don't blame them. I mean, it's it's tough. It's tough raising teenagers sometimes because they're not that it's almost unrecognizable, you know, from the sweet nine year olds, or the 99 might become, but I think what we're called to do for each other is to tell the truth, not their truth. You know, I don't you know, you're speaking from him first himself. He said, Yeah, I was. I mean, I think this was true for him, I think, really at the core, and somehow he had the grace to find it. What all he really wants and all, probably any parent wants their kid to be well, and whatever well looks like for us. And I think the fact that he could say that was kind of miraculous.

 

Arlina Allen  37:42  

Very, yeah, that was absolutely. sneak up for Marty, right?

 

Unknown Speaker  37:47  

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. No, I

 

Arlina Allen  37:50  

think yeah, it's, it's just, yeah, my mom was, she was really tough. And I remember growing up, she's going through her second divorce. And all my hair started falling out, like a lot I was under, and nobody knew what was going on. And you know, when it ended is one day, she let me curl up in her lap and cry. I had a good cry. And then my hair stopped falling out after that. Wow. Yeah. And I think it was like, there needs to be this balance. Like I feel like as a parent I attend like we tell our kids that we love them all the time. And I almost feel like maybe we maybe it's a little too much sweetness. You know, I have I have the the hard ass edge me because I think I inherited that from my mom. But you know it when you get something different from your parent, it is kind of jolting. It is kind of healing, it can be life changing, if it's different. So if you're sweet all the time, when you show up with boundaries that can be jolting. When you're a hard ass your whole life and you show up with a little bit of sweetness. It can be start, it's like a pattern interrupt, you know that. It's just kind of interesting. And I wanted to ask you a little bit

 

Unknown Speaker  39:09  

of a story, by the way. But your mother obviously was disappointed, you know, and her own struggles, but that she was able to be with you. And warning I think that is really a bridge.

 

Arlina Allen  39:28  

That was it made me feel you know, like the talk about original wounds, like I don't matter, or I'm unlovable because I'm either too much or not good enough. Right. Or maybe that I'm alone, you know, those original wounds, and I feel like I had all those but my mom, you know, in that moment, it's like those, like that moment that your dad had like they were willing to do something different. Like they had a glimmer of hope, like somebody gave them hope and they decided to do something different. And that's kind of what But you said your dad reached across the table with his heart, you know, and it was like, there is something that's transmitted, like when people are really vulnerable and honest and coming from their heart. That's so healing. Right? And I feel like that's a lot of what recovery has been about for me is that just that willing to be vulnerable and have a degree of humility, it's a lot of times kind of, like forced humility. It's like, like, I have to get honest about what what's really going on, so that I can get the solution. But you know, as a parent, you know, we're talking about our kids, and how do we reach our kids, because I think that's, you know, in this day and age, a lot of us that have had addiction issues, you know, we're worried about passing it down to our kids. And we thought we were talking earlier about leading by example, right, we need to lead by example for our kids, and it's so hard to know, I felt like we're walking this fine line. Because, you know, kids commit suicide all the time, like, you know, and the, there's all these ideas, like kids are like, a very aware of anxiety and depression, and being socially awkward, and there seems to be, you know, and as a parent, it's like, you want to encourage them to get help and take responsibility for their feelings at the same time, you don't want to push them too hard, because that is the ultimate threat is that they will commit suicide. Right. And it's, and I know that they're taking drugs to medicate, I took drugs to medicate. And I used to say that, you know, drugs, drugs, were my savior for a long time. If, if I had to feel, you know, especially those young years 1415 if I had to feel all the feelings, because I didn't have any coping skills, I don't know that I would have survived. So, you know, I know you've been trying to cure addiction, and what are some of the things that, you know, besides leading by example, for our kids, how can we, how do we, how do we fix this duty? How do we,

 

Unknown Speaker  42:08  

I think we show up for each other is to start I don't know. But I, I do feel, and everybody says this, I guess every generation notices this, but I do think it is an inordinately challenging time to be growing up. I was saying to a student in my office, not too long ago, you know, if you're not anxious, you're crazy. Because and crazy is probably not the right word for Psychology at it. You know, and here I am a psychologist, I'm not all that correct times. But I think that you at least if you're not anxious, and you're growing up right now, you're somehow blind and deaf, or in denial, yeah, or in a massive denial, which I don't even know, I think that I think what's different, and what shifted for my dad, and what continues to be something that I work on, is to respond to all this pain, the natural response is to sort of curl up and close in, and to hide, and to take ourselves away. And as addicts you know, I still have a great capacity for denial that I have to check all the time. But I also found many tools to use. And that's why drugs are so compelling, because it was like, boom, you know, you've got a 10 foot wall now, between you and any realities, are safe and cozy, and delightful. And I think kids find drugs, you know, to do the same thing, but they also are stuck in a way because face it, that it's a tear, it's a hard time for any of us to be on the planet. And there's not a lot of great models of going through that awake and an honest and I guess, you know, I just try to put myself in the position of a nine year old, knowing, you know, probably on Instagram and every other thing, you know, how much suffering there is or is about to be. And then seeing the many ways, drugs and other ways that adults around are medicating and escaping. And even though you and I have been able to put down drugs, I think, at least for me, I guess I can still do want I naturally want to distance myself. And I don't I think that is a way to kind of abandon the nine year olds. I don't know how old you were when you're here was five out but I think as about maybe than nine or 10 Yeah, the metaphor is put our heads on each other's laps and, and just cry, you know, cry or or whimper or hope or try or touch each other I think in touch each other in the in the true spot where there is anxiety and depression and fear because if we can't do that and there's so many opportunities to escape I you know we're in a kind of a vortex going down the drain here because the more we escaped the worst things grow around us because we don't have to deal with them. And then the young people see oh my gosh, it's, you know, this is a crazy house. This being Earth. So I, I think or your family, I suppose but I, I guess we're both your mother and my father were able to do was recognize, you know, the truest piece of themselves and their children and respond honestly. Yeah. And that sometimes that might be kindness, sometimes that might not be kindness. But I think it's honesty, that's the, the, the thing we're really lacking or, or, you know, maybe the, the lifesaver would be Yeah,

 

Arlina Allen  46:44  

I think in that moment, there was, you know, a high degree of empathy. Bernie Brown is a shame researcher, she talks about empathy is the antidote to shame. Right? I've heard people say that, you know, this is a disease of isolation and connection is the cure. And you know, I really feel like connection is one of those one of those solutions to all this, like, we need to connect with each other. We're, you know, as human beings, we actually really need each other.

 

Unknown Speaker  47:15  

Oh, my goodness, yeah.

 

Arlina Allen  47:17  

Yeah, I need to be around easily cope with stress

 

Unknown Speaker  47:20  

is by social support. And there's tons of evidence that social support, not only mitigates, but also reverses the effects of stress. And it is, you know, surely a big part of, of getting better as individuals and also as communities and families, I think, recognizing that and it's tough because my parents kicked me out your your mother disowned you. And partly for me that facing the consequences of my decisions was helpful. But I do think that's harder because fentanyl wasn't around. You know, you you don't want to face them in the ultimate, you know, right, way too early. So I guess as parents we, we try to block a very tough line these weird. Yeah, it is hard.

 

Arlina Allen  48:23  

Yeah. But I'm glad to hear that there's evidence that shows that social support mitigates and reverses stress, that's amazing. It kind of confirms everything that we knew, right? Like, we got sober we got social support, we, you know, had lots of people who had done it before us so learning by example, I hear that hope I've heard hope is hearing other people's experiences, which is why I do the podcast right? You know, people that listen, go Okay, you know, we can talk about the mechanics how, how the brain works, and all that and how it's affected by alcohol. And you know why it's a bad idea. But then hearing about like the turning point, like when your dad reached out to you, and you were at that place where I'm sure you had you were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Ready, just ready enough, you talk about just having just a tiny bit of willingness. It's a little chink in the armor. How long were you in that? That rehab in the 80s

 

Unknown Speaker  49:29  

I was in for 20 days, which seemed like nine years and then I was in a halfway house for three months, which I calculated at the time so I know this is true was 1/27 of my life or something. I forget how I did that or something like that. I had some kind of crazy mula totally a rip off. I was so furious. But I, I was, like I say at the turning point, and there's been so many times, you know, I know where things are. Lena, we're talking about openness. And I think one way I could be honest, is to say, even after setting addiction for 35 years, and having all this personal and scientific experience, I still need to be open to all I don't know. And certainty is a lie, you know, certainty is the biggest illusion. And so here we are kind of trying to get through. And I think that is what I first had in my I was very certain until I'm in the treatment center. And I'm asked to try a different way. And I was troubled, because on one way I went, and I could see my way was not going great. Like it was really not going well. And I could see that without the drugs, you know, for a few weeks. But to do an another way that was extremely vague and chancy, and, you know, just seemed really crazy. To me. I was just stuck. And that, like you say this, just a tiny bit willing to say, I don't know. And, okay, you know, and this is a still, I think where I am I one of the things I love about recovery the most is that it is always different. And, you know, I thought that drugs were gonna give me this great, you know, every day is a big surprise, you know, who knows if it's the cops or that whatever. It just turned out to be adrenaline, but it was a grind, it was not really novel or interesting. And in fact, 35 years later, I'm I'm just astounded by how much mystery there is, in any day. It's just breathtaking. So I guess that I have to show up for that, you know, I have to not buy into the lie that I know exactly what I'm doing. Right?

 

Arlina Allen  52:20  

I think the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know, a lot. You know, yeah, that is a I do love that about recovery is that every day is kind of new again, you know, and that we don't have to, and there's so much interesting research going on. Now I know that, you know, and I didn't I feel like we're running out of time, but that there is so much research now on helping people with chronic addiction through things like psychedelics. It's just like, you know, I I practice abstinence. So that's, let's face it, my life is fine. Like I don't, you know, need that. But for the chronic alcoholic who meets some criteria of like, you know, post traumatic stress disorder, and things like that. I know, Johns Hopkins is doing some interesting studies about that. That Yeah, there's still so much to learn about, about the brain and addiction and how to help people. Where do you see the focus of your work in the next, I don't know, five to 10 years?

 

Unknown Speaker  53:28  

Well, can I just respond to this thing about the psychedelic so

 

Arlina Allen  53:33  

Oh, sure. Yeah, cuz Yeah, you wrote a lot about it, and you're But well, I read some about

 

Unknown Speaker  53:36  

1. And I think it's congruent with what other people are writing to that it may be those drugs may be a useful tool. But it reminds me that they go back to what you were saying earlier, the the benefit of those drugs is in their ability to help us connect with something bigger than ourselves, you know, which could be the love of other people. And I think that it reminds me that every drug is only doing nothing new, it's a total we have the capacity to do ourselves. So the way the pharmacology goes is that drugs work by exploiting pathways we already have. So in a way, this opportunity for transcending ourselves to connection with others, maybe helped by psychedelics, but those are not the answer. The answer is transcending ourselves by connecting with ourselves in something bigger than ourselves. So I would say that what I'm working on now Well, I there's so much that I am excited to do I wish I could stay up later, but I've got my research lab going. I'm studying sex differences in addiction. I'm also studying initial responses. to drugs and I'm interested in the genetic difference, individual differences that are mediated by an interaction of genes and say stress or other kinds of environmental influences. But I'm also hoping to write another book and I have this is funny because I'm, I don't really consider myself the book writing type, I'm kind of like the short, quick, get it done thing. And the first book took 10 years. So I don't have that a 10 years. I know so sad. Because I was busy, I was raising children and I was trying to get grants and we're, you know, grade papers and all that. So I can't do that, again, I don't, I have three books, so I'm probably not going to live long enough. So three books I want to write and I have a sabbatical coming up. And I'm hoping that I will have an opportunity to spend the year getting at least one of those out either on the adolescent vulnerability to addiction or on sex differences in the causes and consequences of addictive drugs, or just a kind of more philosophical take on. Because so a response to the opportunity that everybody alive on the planet has today to take substances and just as you were saying, sometimes for some people, those and some substances might be beneficial, and sometimes not. And I think that understanding and sort of finding your way to a personal ethic of how, what drugs in my life requires and appreciation of science, but also of you know, our honest assessment of who and where we are our development and what drugs are doing for instance, I this is just a little thing, but I read the other day that the marijuana industry is really exacerbating the droughts on the west coast. And that is a sort of a dilemma for this idea. And I mean, I I think there may be benefits also, but you know, it's not that our choices, if we know anything in October of 2021, we realize that our individual choices have impact on others, and so and on ourselves. So I guess I want to just consider that and not in a you know, there's a lot that can be said about it. So anyway, I'm excited about all those things. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I'm hoping to take a break from teaching it's been a tough year and a half with COVID Yeah, routines and yeah, yeah, I think we're all kind of hobbling through

 

Arlina Allen  58:03  

Yeah, my heart goes out to all the teachers I know it's just been it's we're living in through unprecedented time so I really so grateful to all the teachers who've been able to hack it out and help our kids right it's it's really important work. You know, they I think they need as many people in their corner as they can get. So thank you for hanging it out and being available to all these kids. But I am so excited about your your book projects. I will personally be rooting for the one about adolescence.

 

Unknown Speaker  58:38  

Me too, that one almost could write itself the data, you know, in the last 1520 years are overwhelming. And so it's really a good time to get that out. And, and adolescents are like sitting ducks today. And that is not their problem. That's all of our problem.

 

Arlina Allen  59:00  

Oh yeah, they're our future. Right? I remember people saying that about us. Listen, thank you so much for your time today. When you get done with that book. You come on back and we'll talk about that one too.

 

Unknown Speaker  59:13  

Okay. Arlina Thank you for having me. It's been really nice. Yeah, such

 

Arlina Allen  59:16  

a pleasure. We'll talk soon thanks. Bye bye.