The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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269. The Biology of Good and Evil | Frans de Waal

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Jul 11, 2022

Guest

Frans de Waal

Frans de Waal, an acclaimed Dutch primatologist, discusses the biology of good and evil, drawing parallels between primate and human behavior. He highlights the instinct for reciprocal cooperation and the crucial role of female choice in sexual selection. The necessity of play is explored, revealing its importance in social development and self-control. De Waal also delves into gender dynamics, the nature of aggression, and the reconciliation behaviors observed in both primates and humans, ultimately challenging societal views on morality and social interaction.

01:45:46

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INSIGHT

Dominance as a Two-Way Street

Dominance hierarchies aren't solely about coercion.
They involve followers who desire to be dominated, creating a two-way street.

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ANECDOTE

Challenging Coercive Alphas

Unpopular, coercive alpha males are often challenged.
The group supports challengers, seeking to replace bullies with better leaders.

insights

INSIGHT

The Power of Empathetic Alphas

Stable alpha males maintain peace and defend the vulnerable.
Their popularity stems from empathy and reassurance, not just fear.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Exploring Morality Through Primate Behavior

02:27 • 8min

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Dynamics of Dominance and Female Choice

09:58 • 18min

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Navigating Sex and Gender Dynamics

27:50 • 24min

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Understanding Conflict and Cooperation Across Genders

51:41 • 20min

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Uncovering Animal Intelligence and Consciousness

01:11:34 • 21min

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Adorned Selves: Ape Behavior and Human Parallels

01:32:19 • 5min

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The Sensory Depth of Human Connection

01:37:20 • 2min

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Social Dynamics and Intellectual Influences

01:39:37 • 2min

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Influences on Biology and Human Morality

01:41:16 • 2min

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From Aggression to Empathy: Understanding Human Interaction

01:43:23 • 2min

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Good Nature

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Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

Frans de Waal

In *Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?*, Frans de Waal delves into the intelligence of various animal species, highlighting their problem-solving abilities, tool use, and social intelligence. He argues that the difference between human and animal cognition is one of degree, not kind, and emphasizes the need to appreciate animal intelligence on its own terms.

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In 'Get Different: Marketing That Can't Be Ignored!', Mike Michalowicz offers a proven method to position your business, service, or brand to get noticed, attract the best prospects, and convert those opportunities into sales. The book emphasizes that 'different is better' and provides a simple, doable system based on three critical questions: Does it differentiate? Does it attract? Does it direct? This approach is illustrated with actionable insights and stories of real-life entrepreneurs, making it a game-changer for businesses struggling to stand out in the market.

Mama's Last Hug

Frans de Waal

Mama's Last Hug is a compelling book that delves into the emotional lives of animals, using the story of Mama, a chimpanzee matriarch, as a central narrative. Frans de Waal explores various emotions such as love, hate, fear, shame, guilt, joy, disgust, and empathy across different species, including chimpanzees, dogs, rats, and elephants. The book argues that humans and other animals share a common emotional landscape and challenges the traditional views of behaviorism. De Waal's work emphasizes the importance of understanding and recognizing the emotional lives of animals and their implications for human behavior and ethics.

Frans de Waal is an acclaimed Dutch primatologist and ethologist. He's written and published numerous books, including 'Chimpanzee Cultures,' 'Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?', 'Mam's Last Hug,' and his most recent book, 'Different: Gender Through the Eyes of a Primatologist.'

In this episode, Frans de Waal and I discuss a number of things, including the instinct for reciprocal cooperation, the characteristics of sex and gender, the necessity of play, reconciliation, how we mismeasure animals, and much more. Thanks for watching.

—Links—

Read Frans de Waal's books:

https://www.amazon.com/Frans-De-Waal/e/B000APOHE0%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

—Chapters—

[0:00] Intro

[6:44] A Background in Ethology

[9:46] The Social Organization of Chimpanzees

[12:11] Supporters Make Chimps Dominant

[15:56] An Instinct for Reciprocal Cooperation

[17:37] Female Choice in Sexual Selection

[22:45] Biology's Victorian Beginnings

[24:37] Bonobo's Collective Dominance