The current crisis of democracy and governance goes back a long way, and has a lot in common with the development of capitalism, says my guest Sunil Amrith, professor of history at Yale University. The logic of profit and exploitation not only damaged natural systems, it profoundly changed societies and their ways of organising themselves and understanding themselves. From its very beginnings, from the stock exchange Amsterdam to the foundation of Singapore, from the sugar plantations of Madeira to the palm oil plantings today, there are patterns that repeat themselves in different historical contexts. The crisis of the so-called West is one consequence of this development, but it is seen in a very different light within the global south with its historical experience of colonialism and globalised exploitations. Sunil and I also talk about what comes after the logic of humans exploiting nature and setting themselves apart from it. Is a different narrative possible, or is homo sapiens irretrievably caught up in the acceleration of history?