AI-powered
podcast player
Listen to all your favourite podcasts with AI-powered features
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
204. The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau
Nov 22, 2021
02:03:58
AI Summary
Highlights
AI Chapters
Episode notes
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Meaning is a metaphor that connects us to the world and informs our interactions.
- Scientism limits our understanding of meaning by reducing it to propositional knowledge, ignoring other forms of knowing.
- Religious experiences, like hallucinogenic substances, offer deep revelation and personal transformation.
- Bridging the gap between religion and science is essential to create a map of meaning that blends rationality with insights and embodied truth.
Deep dives
The Nature of Meaning and Religious Significance
The podcast episode explores the concept of meaning and its religious significance. The guests, Bishop Baron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pajot, engage in a deep discussion to unravel the roots of meaning and its connection to religious beliefs. Meaning is identified as a purposive relationship to values, such as truth, goodness, and beauty. Religious meaning is described as a connection to the supreme value, the source of goodness, truth, and beauty, which is God. The discussion also touches upon the interplay between subjectivity and objectivity and the role of scientific reductionism in our understanding of meaning.
The Problem of Scientism and Reductionism
The podcast critiques the dominance of scientism and reductionism in contemporary culture. It argues that science, while valuable, should not be considered the supreme criterion for all forms of human knowing. Scientism limits our understanding of meaning by reducing it to propositional knowledge, ignoring other forms of knowing such as procedural, perspectival, and participatory knowing. The importance of participatory knowing, which involves transformation and conforming to others and the world, is emphasized in challenging the scientistic view.
The Role of Religious Experience
The podcast explores the significance of religious experiences in understanding meaning and truth. Phenomena like the use of hallucinogenic substances and the experiences of the supernatural in religious ceremonies are discussed. These experiences are seen as avenues for deep revelation and personal transformation. The discussion highlights the limitations of propositions in expressing the depth and transformative power of such experiences. The importance of openness to mystical experiences and their potential in shaping one's perspective is emphasized.
Recovering Participatory Knowing and Hierarchical Intelligibility
The podcast argues for the recovery of participatory knowing and hierarchical intelligibility in understanding meaning and reality. The need to move beyond a purely propositional understanding to embrace other forms of knowledge, including procedural, perspectival, and participatory knowing, is emphasized. The podcast also acknowledges the historical developments that have challenged this participatory understanding, such as nominalism, and advocates for a deeper appreciation of pre-modern views that recognize the interconnectedness of being and the presence of hierarchy.
The importance of a bridge between religion and science
There is a need to bridge the gap between religion and science, as the separation can lead to traumas and a lack of direction. The religious and scientific worldviews often appear to be polar opposites, creating an either-or choice that isolates individuals. But there is a reciprocal reconstruction needed, a post-nominalist neoplatonism that reconciles the two. This bridge would bring together rationality and transformation, recognizing the need for insights and an embodied experience of truth. By expanding the notion of rationality and embracing both scientific and philosophical perspectives, we can build a map of meaning that blends both worlds and provides guidance in our quest for understanding.
The role of beauty and truth in attracting people
Beauty and truth play a vital role in attracting people to religious and philosophical ideas. The emphasis on beauty, both in religious art and the natural world, can create a sense of wonder and connection to something greater. By presenting the deep coherence within religious narratives and connecting them to the patterns found in culture, we can spark insights and provide a holistic understanding of life. A focus on beauty and meaning first allows individuals to experience transformative moments that cannot be easily explained but provide a deep sense of connection and purpose.
Rationality as a transformational process
Rationality should not be confined to scientific reasoning alone but should embrace transformation as a necessary part of understanding the world. Rationality as a way of life goes beyond scientific method and engages deeply with the psychological and philosophical aspects of being. This kind of rationality involves attention, intelligence, reason, and responsibility. The mind is fallen and needs discipline and conversion to engage in true rationality. By understanding the need for personal transformation and a disciplined approach to knowledge, we can bridge the gap between scientific and religious worldviews and pursue a more comprehensive and meaningful understanding of the world.
The urgency of addressing the meaning crisis
The meaning crisis is a pressing issue that has been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. It is a mistake to assume that everything will return to normal, as the world is undergoing significant shifts. The need for a sapiential framework and a way of life that addresses the crisis has become more crucial than ever. This framework should prioritize the recovery of the wisdom tradition and objective values, pushing back against scientism and the culture of self-invention. By focusing on the restoration of wisdom, value, and God as the supreme value, we can offer a path to meaning in a world that is increasingly disconnected from its spiritual roots.
18.
The Emanation and the Emergence Are Both Needed, and They Interpenetrate Each Other.
3min
31.
I Think Mystical Experience Is the Most Profound Version of Participatory Knowing
2min
This episode was recorded on September 10th 2021.
Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau have a round table to explore ideas and theories of Meaning. All three guests have been on the podcast before, and all share Jordan’s passion for the universal truths of human experience. This deep discussion explores the roots of Meaning and religious significance.
Bishop Barron is the founder of Word on Fire and the auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of LA.
John Vervaeke is a colleague of Jordan’s and an associate professor at the University of Toronto since 1994. He teaches courses on reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes.
Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons.
-
Find more Bishop Barron on YouTube: https://youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo
And here: https://wordonfire.org/
Find more John Vervaeke online on his website: http://johnvervaeke.com
John's YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCpqDUjTsof-kTNpnyWper_Q
Find more Jonathan Pageau on YouTube: https://youtube.com/channel/UCtCTSf3UwRU14nYWr_xm-dQ
Jonathan's website: http://www.pageaucarvings.com
_________
[00:00] Preview
[01:30] Intro
[02:40] Everyone gives their answer to “What is meaning?”
[03:30] “We're using meaning as a metaphor... something similar to the way a sentence works. It has intelligibility to it that connects us to the world... so that we can interact and be informed by it” Jon Vervaeke
[07:22] “Our mental framing is transparent like a pair of glasses, but there are times we need to step back and, by taking the glasses off and examining them, consider our framing structure" JV
[09:10] “When you look at the world there is a central point of focus. When you focus on the point with your eyes it becomes very clear... until we no longer perceive anything by the edge of our vision. It's nothingness, it's just not there" Jordan Peterson
[13:56] Bishop Barron's view on meaning and religion
[14:23] “I would say that meaning is to be in a purposeful relationship to a value" Bishop Robert Barron
[17:55] “So I'm talking to you, which I believe is a good, but it's nested in a higher good and a still higher good, so finally I want not just this particular good but good itself—that's a religious relationship" BRB
[18:20] Pageau’s opening thoughts on meaning and religion
[19:56] “The reason we perceive hierarchy is because we are always judging... or trying to evaluate whether something’s good" Pageau
[20:31] Jordan’s brief foray into “mini-celebrations”
[21:53] The idea of revelation
[24:46] “It isn't obvious to me that we see objects—we see patterns" JP
[27:40] “Like a Rolling Stone—it wasn't the first song I liked, but it was the first that rocked my world and rearranged my mind, and I think that's where real value is" BRB
[28:42] Underlying causes of the crisis of meaning
[30:10] “Something that starts with Scotus... and goes into the heart of the scientific revolution is that there’s no such thing as levels—reality just is" JV
[31:00] Science around the hierarchy of intelligibility and connectedness
[33:00] What is science?
[39:00] “There’s an epistemic hierarchy and science does not belong on the top" BRB
[42:00] “As scientists, we are motivated by a narrative we don't understand scientifically… The whole enterprise is driven by a dream whose reality can't be encapsulated within the process itself" JP
[44:00] The ignorance in assuming science OR religion are correct
[44:40] Eminationist ontologies
[55:30] Religious experiences
[01:07:30] The book of Revelations as a psychedelic experience.
[01:17:30] The Psychedelic problem and why psychedelics are useful in communal experiences.
[01:26:00] Jordan’s biblical lectures
[01:32:00] What are the guests working on?
[01:36:00] Beauty in churches
[01:38:00] Growing up Christian
[01:44:00] Possibility is real
[01:50:00] Joining religion and science
[02:03:30] Wrapping up
#Meaning #Psychology #Religion
Get the Snipd
podcast app
Unlock the knowledge in podcasts with the podcast player of the future.
AI-powered
Discover
highlights
Listen to the best highlights from the podcasts you love and dive into the full episode
Save any
moment
Hear something you like? Tap your headphones to save it with AI-generated key takeaways
Share
& Export
Send highlights to Twitter, WhatsApp or export them to Notion, Readwise & more
AI-powered
podcast player
Listen to all your favourite podcasts with AI-powered features
Discover
highlights
Listen to the best highlights from the podcasts you love and dive into the full episode