Property Management Growth with DoorGrow DGS 230: Elevating the Owner Experience in Property Management
Have you been looking for ways to improve your owners’ experiences as property management clients?
In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Matthew Kaddatz from Appfolio to talk about elevating the owner experience in property management.
You’ll Learn[01:35] Getting started in the property management industry
[05:18] Improving relationships with owners and investors
[10:24] What does your ideal client look like?
[18:31] Why you get stuck doing things you hate
[26:25] How elevating the owner experience helps you
Tweetables“Once property management gets you, you're stuck. You're not going anywhere.”
“I think one of the biggest mistakes property managers make by not having clarity on who their ideal customer is they try to get everybody.”
“‘No’ is often better than ‘yes’ if you're being careful and focused.”
“I don't think that you can really figure out a lot about your clients and what they truly want, what's really important to them, if you're unclear on what you truly want.”
Resources Transcript[00:00:00] Jason: I think one of the biggest mistakes property managers make by not having clarity on who their ideal customer is, is they try to get everybody. Then they're taking on a lot of accidental investors and they churn out like after a year.
[00:00:12] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower.
[00:00:28] DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, my wife, co-owner and COO of DoorGrow.
[00:01:11] Now let's get into the show. All right. Today's guest. We have Matthew Kaddatz from Appfolio. So Matthew, welcome to the show.
[00:01:22] Matthew: Yeah. Thanks for having me excited to be here.
[00:01:25] Jason: So we have not yet had somebody from AppFolio, but we have a ton of clients that use AppFolio and we've heard great things about it. The perception has always been, it's the Mac of the property management software out there.
[00:01:37] So, Matthew, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about you? How did you get into property management into this industry? And and you know, what do you do at Appfolio?
[00:01:48] Matthew: Yeah. So, I've been in property management pretty much my whole professional career. I studied computer science in college, realized I didn't want to be behind a computer all day and knew some developers developing some land, and they were looking to turn over the management and there weren't a lot of local operators. And I was like, "Oh, I could do it." You know, naive, 22, and 2006, right? So that all thought the best way to make money is real estate. It's 2006, everyone was making money right at the brothiest point in the industry.
[00:02:23] And I went down and started the property management company. These developers were my first contract and I ended up really liking the business, building the business. I grew it in the local area, did property management, community association management, a little bit of short term rentals, small, little, mostly second home market. And had a fun time growing it. Ultimately, I ended up selling it to an outfit out of Texas called Associa, and was looking to do something else and found my way to AppFolio.
[00:02:58] Jason: All right. Now you are then, based on the numbers you shared, you're about to hit the big 4-0, right?
[00:03:05] I am. And did you ever think as a kid when you turned 40 someday that you're going to be doing property management stuff?
[00:03:13] Matthew: No, never. Even when I sold my business, I stayed around for two years and was looking for something else. I looked hard to get out of the industry. I wanted something different and the furthest I could get was a technology company that provides software for the industry.
[00:03:31] And you know, I joke around once property management gets you, you're stuck. You're not going anywhere else.
[00:03:37] Jason: You know, a lot of property managers joke about it and they complain and they throw out memes like about drinking wine is solving their problems, you know, and stuff like this. But I fell in love with the industry because I love how, 1. MRR is a beautiful business model. Yes. It's monthly residual revenue, right? It's the ultimate business recurring revenue, monthly recurring revenue. And I love the residual income of a coaching business and property management is similar.
[00:04:07] And so what I love about the property management industry is that it is it's similar to me, right? The people that I get to serve and they're my people. They're a little bit nerdy sometimes. They tend to like technology to some degree, or they have to at least use it. And they they're entrepreneurial and they're not just the sales oriented person that's just hunting and chasing the next deal they want to build. That recurring revenue.
[00:04:35] Matthew: You know, the SAS business model, like technology, like AppFolio is very similar as well. The parallels and just how we think about our customers and how our customers think about their customers are wildly similar, which I think gives us some insight into just how to build great software.
[00:04:54] But I too am obviously attracted to the business model. It's a really good business model. You're not always hunting for that big fish to get or whatnot. You have predictable revenue and that gives you some comfort to take a step back and kind of think about what I truly love is like strategic priorities.
[00:05:16] Jason: Yeah, it creates some stability. So the topic we're going to get into today is elevating the owner experience. And so, where should we start with this?
[00:05:27] Matthew: Yeah, good question. So I've been my job at AppFolio is to really focus on small business property managers and make sure we're building product for them. And I've been doing this for two and a half, almost three years now here. I've had other jobs AppFolio, but this recent gig has been really focused on the small business property managers and you know, six to eight months into the job, I realized the owner of the property is just so fundamental to how the SMB industry works, which is less true as you go high up market into like large multifamily. The relationship between the property manager and the property owner is just so important, and I think really understanding that dynamic from my perspective, like helped us think through how we're going to innovate and build software to make those relationships better to leverage software. But what got me more excited was just learning how great property managers think about this, how they think about acquiring these people, how they think about onboarding these people, how they think about retaining these owners and how the group of property owners, it's not a homogenous group, right? Like there are different subsets.
[00:06:50] A person who owns five four plexes is going to think and operate different than a person who had to leave town for work and is giving their house over to property manager because they had to leave town for work for a period of time. So just understanding the dynamics there is really important.
[00:07:13] And the great property managers, I think do that well, but it's amazing how many people don't think carefully about who their clients are, what their interests are and how diverse they can be.
[00:07:24] Jason: What do you think are some of the most common mistakes people are making? In the small business category with their owners?
[00:07:32] Matthew: I think they're pushing to either one of two polarizing extremes, right? Like one size fits all, my services must fit for everyone in which like they don't because it's not a homogenous group or, I will be everything to everyone which doesn't scale. And that's probably the more dangerous thing. I think property management tends to attract people great at customer service who like to say yes and hate to say no, and it's hard to not be every thing to everyone. If that's just sort of your disposition that got you to be very successful at providing great customer service, you can't grow a business that way.
[00:08:15] You can't scale a business that way. Once you have to hire people to manage owner relationships.
[00:08:20] Jason: Yeah, we see these problems as well. The one size fits all usually relates very simply to how property managers are pricing. Like everybody's like, "we'll just charge 10 percent or we'll just charge a flat fee."
[00:08:32] And one of the things that we teach is this three tier hybrid pricing model where you're focused that psychologically on at least three different types of buyers based on their motivation or based on their pain psychologically so that it's not just one size fits all. It's tailored towards the pain threshold when it comes to spending and it's tailored towards, you know, the level of service or safety and certainty when it comes to like what they're hoping to spend money on.
[00:08:58] And so that's really interesting. And then you mentioned: don't be everything to everyone. So I have this slide and one of my slides in my pitch deck says "you're not Burger King." " your way right away," right? And so "don't be Burger King" is what it says. So, and the opposite is like to be the lighthouse, right?
[00:09:16] The lighthouse is guides, but it doesn't move, right? It has boundaries and standards.
[00:09:22] Matthew: Yeah. So many great operators have done too much of everything to everyone and they get to what, 300 ish units and they can't figure out how to get beyond. They just can't figure out how to scale because. It actually costs a bit of money to go from 300 to 600 units.
[00:09:40] You have to like reorganize a bit.
[00:09:42] Jason: That's funny. We call the stage between two to 400 units, the second sand trap.
[00:09:49] Matthew: Yeah.
[00:09:49] Jason: Interesting. It's basically the swamp of success. We call it the team sand trap because usually it's because staffing costs are so high at this stage, they end up stuck and it's usually they think they need more processes.
[00:10:02] But what they actually need are better team members.
[00:10:04] Matthew: Yeah, and I would argue higher degree of focus. Yeah, the way I like think about my customers is I get very clear on who they are and what they care about. So, you know, AppFolio is a large company.
[00:10:19] We have lots of customers and as much as we'd love them to be homogenous, like all the same property managers are very diverse group of small businesses. So it's really important for me to understand the profile of business that I'm solving for what type of product and service are we building for that specific profile? So much so that I want to be so intimate with that profile of customer that if I meet them, it's easy for me to have a conversation with them. I know what their common pains and challenges are. I know what they care about. Like I could talk to them for two hours and they were like, "Oh, it felt like I've known you forever." That's how like close I want to understand their types of businesses.
[00:11:04] And I think that's similar for property managers as they reach out to different types of owners. So you have accidental landlords that care about something very different than an like mom and pop investor that's trying to grow a real estate portfolio. And depending on your market might depend on which one of those or both of those you focus on.
[00:11:26] But having a degree of focus and on that specific buyer or owner that you fit best for is really important to scale because then you can build systems and processes around that. You can build what you mentioned earlier, pricing and packaging around those people. And you're not trying to do everything for everyone.
[00:11:49] You're focused on solving the needs of. A specific like group of people. They, I think it's Seth Godin who talks about a thousand true fans. And I think his point is to be very successful in life, you just need to have a thousand people that really love what you're doing and want to pay you to keep doing it.
[00:12:09] You think about it, like people are looking for massive scale, but you can actually have an incredibly successful business just by solving the needs of a thousand people.
[00:12:19] Jason: So when you said be everything to everyone, I was immediately thinking, "Oh yeah, some property managers just like are doormats."
[00:12:25] They're trying to do everything. What you're talking about, I think is also super powerful, which is this, having this, a higher degree of focus, which you said. And I was thinking we'll focus on what, right? And you're talking about like really getting clear on their avatar, like really getting clear on who they want, what their ideal customer looks like.
[00:12:42] Sarah does a lot of work right now with our clients in our rapid revamp program, focusing specifically on this.
[00:12:49] Sarah: Well, I think one of the things we do and actually we're going to be getting into that in a couple of weeks right now, what we're focused on is figuring out their why and their business why.
[00:12:59] And I don't think that you can really figure out a lot about your clients and what they truly want, what's really important to them, if you're unclear on what you truly want. It's like that saying, like if you can't love yourself, you also can't love another person, so don't get into a relationship. It's kind of like that.
[00:13:20] So if you're unclear about what you're doing and why you're doing it. And why... the big thing is, why does it even matter? Then if you can't answer that question and feel really solid in that answer, then you're never going to be able to figure that out about other people either. Because if you can't start with yourself you're never really going to absorb the information the way that you need to in order to create a really powerful relationship with a client.
[00:13:47] Jason: Yeah. Powerful. If you get into a relationship with somebody and they have more clarity on what they want than you do, they win. Totally. You are giving up what you want because you just never got clear enough on it. We all have things we want. It's built into us. Like we have desires. But a lot of us aren't willing to just want things like the, a book I read recently on 10x is easier than 2x kind of talks about this a little bit on the audio book.
[00:14:15] They were talking about wanting and how important it is to want, but society, religion, everything kind of conditions us that, "well, you don't need that." And that's what we always hear. "You don't need that. What do you need that for? What do you need that for? Why do you need a house?"
[00:14:29] Matthew: You know, I think about what I've noticed is a common theme of the skills that got you here aren't going to get you there. And, what I mean by that is like a lot of people do fall into property management by accident.
[00:14:42] Yes. Yeah. I, for one, can definitely relate to building a business that tried to do everything for everyone. And that helped me get a foothold into the market. It helped me build a reputation of a doer. I was really successful at creating customers who really liked me. But I sold the business before I ever learned to scale it.
[00:15:04] Effectively. I've learned those scaling skills working in a software company but I've had to go from highly successful doer to slowing down, thinking strategically, getting to the why and being careful about choices and realizing like "no" is often better than "yes" if you're being careful and focused.
[00:15:28] And I think that set of skills is, at least for me, it was incredibly hard to go from doer to strategy is kind of how I talk about it or think about it. And that is how you get a business from working very successfully, but working 60 hours a week to growing. And maybe you're still working 60 hours a week, but you're not unclogging a toilet because you can't get ahold of a maintenance person and you have a plunger in the back of your truck or whatever, you know, you're building systems and procedures to allow things to grow sustainably.
[00:16:09] Jason: Yeah, there's a really good book. We've had the author on the show and he's spoken to one of our conferences.
[00:16:14] Mike Michalowicz wrote a book called The Pumpkin Plan in which he talks about this analogy of growing a business is akin to like growing prize winning pumpkins in a pumpkin patch. One of the principles is it's impossible to grow the business that you want if you plant the wrong seed. You cannot grow a prize winning pumpkin if you plant a pumpkin pie pumpkin for example. It's just not going to be big enough. Right? And I think you'd mentioned accidental investors. I think one of the biggest mistakes property managers make by not having clarity on who their ideal customer is they try to get everybody. Then they're taking on a lot of accidental investors and they churn out like after a year.
[00:16:52] Right. And churn is it's impossible to outpace with adding more doors and growth, a bad churn rate. That's really a grind. Like that's brutal and painful. And it actually takes less work to work with 10 year buy and hold investors, less work to convince them to use you, less work to do stuff versus you know, working with accidental investors.
[00:17:14] And so if a business builds a business off of the back of accidental investors, they're building a business that has a high churn rate, the MRR model gets destroyed, and it's a grind, and their business will more likely fail or stay stagnant for years.
[00:17:31] Matthew: That makes total sense. What I think about too is like, how do I build software tools that help the property managers elevate the conversations they're having with their intentional investors, mom and pop investors, or how do they convert an accidental investor into a more active investor? Like How do we help them show property performance and move the conversation beyond the like three bids we got for the last maintenance issue to what's the overall longterm value of this property and what type of return should it produce? And what's your ideal investment, what types of returns are you looking for? Does this asset actually fit what you're looking for? because property managers, they could underwrite markets better than anyone else can in terms of property investment.
[00:18:30] Jason: And I think they're connected to reality. You know what actually works and they know which things need to be improved or change on a property to get the best rent rate. They like, they know all this. They're the best equipped to handle investors, period.
[00:18:44] Matthew: And they're stuck having these, like, what arguably are low level, like not important conversations around, "do we like this maintenance bid or that maintenance bid or like the tenant paid three days late. Are you sure we should renew the lease?" Like, like stuff that's like fairly insignificant for the overall, like performance of the assets.
[00:19:06] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like big focus on the minuscule things that really aren't that significant or that important. And a lot of times it's, they've just set up a relationship that involves way too much communication. Just unnecessary and irrelevant. And then I think that's just has goes to setting boundaries. I mean, Sarah was able to set amazing boundaries when she ran her property management company, like her stats and metrics were ridiculous from what I've seen inside thousands of property management companies.
[00:19:37] And so, I mean, she had like 60 percent profit margin, 260 doors, C class properties and ran it remotely part time with one part time person boots on the ground. Like it's insane. And then we see clients that are like the complete opposite. They're like working like a dog with 50 units and like stuck in the first sand trap.
[00:19:57] Sarah: I hear them say like, "I have 37 and I work like 58 hours a week." I don't even know what you're doing. What are you doing? How?
[00:20:03] Matthew: I can relate to that.
[00:20:05] Sarah: I don't understand what you're doing. I don't get it.
[00:20:08] Jason: The testament to having a really sharp operator in a business. She makes us a lot more efficient. So, so how does Appfolio help with all of this?
[00:20:17] So you've mentioned you know, having some clarity on the customer and, you know, getting clear on who you want. How is Appfolio software facilitating these owner relationships?
[00:20:29] Matthew: Yeah, our main channel is the owner portal that we have, right? That's the main channel that we can build technology in that allow property managers to communicate better with their owners.
[00:20:44] So we've been making a lot of investments to bring property performance into the owner portal in and visualize it via dashboards to give more insight to the property owner about how the property is performing. I think the first problem that we solved rather successfully based upon customer feedback is how can I get data to my owners so they stop calling me about things that are low value and relatively trivial?
[00:21:16] So like getting all of that, like did they pay their rent on time? Approving maintenance work orders, like simple things that most of the time can be just a click of a button and happen via technology that's been like, now we're looking at like, what are other ways we can help visualize the performance of the property so that property managers can, if they want, have what I would call like a more asset management conversation as opposed to a like operational conversation.
[00:21:49] What I believe is going to continue to be true is there's going to be more consolidation of single family, and there's going to be less accidental landlords over time and more people that are actually looking for real returns on their assets. And so property managers are going to have to learn how to have asset management type conversations which talk about cash on cash return, IRR, those types of things that might sound intimidating.
[00:22:22] They're really not that complicated if you spend some time learning them. We basically want to empower our customers to have those conversations easier and try to be thought leaders for the real estate investing space, which they serve and typically are their best customers.
[00:22:40] Jason: Yeah, I love that.
[00:22:42] Sarah: So the, I feel like our ROI calculator does a really good job of that. And that's something that's new. So most people have no idea what that is. because we just rolled it out. But we gave early access to some people who had attended an in person event last month with with us. And they all really loved it.
[00:23:02] But what I think I like the most about it is a lot of property managers, they have great knowledge. They have great understanding and they have great data. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes there's a little bit of a gap. When an investor or there's a little bit of an like just the clench, right?
[00:23:20] When an investor, like a really savvy investor calls, any property management owner and says, "Hey, you know, I'm looking for, you know, properties with X cap rate," or, you know, I'm, you know, looking to get this kind of right. And sometimes they're like, "Oh, I don't know how to approach this conversation. I just don't. Maybe I know some of the data and I just don't have all of the data. But I think our ROI calculator really helps with that because it kind of breaks down. You just enter it and it's really easy. You can get it from the MLS. So literally anyone can do it. You just, you don't even have to be a real estate agent. You just pull the data from the MLS. And there are certain things you might need a property manager's guidance on things like, you know, how much might the rehab take and how much is market rent for this property or this area.
[00:24:11] And from there, it'll show you, you know, does this property cash flow well? And what kind of tax benefits do you get from owning and holding the property? Because everyone, I think when they think about real estate investing, they think, Oh, it's cash flow. It's not always about the cash flow. There's so many other ways to actually make money in real estate.
[00:24:37] And cash flow is a small little chunk of the pie. So I think the ROI calculator really helps empower property managers to have these really great deep conversations with realtors and with investors and do so confidently, not just, "Oh, well, I think this will be a good property to invest in, or I feel like this is probably a good..."
[00:25:03] We know because now we have the data and now it just comes down to: do the numbers work or not?
[00:25:10] Matthew: Yeah. What you're talking about sounds really familiar to what I call like underwriting. And that's really common in multifamily. Every single multifamily operator or investor underwrites a property before acquisition so that they have a pro forma.
[00:25:28] They know how it's going to operate and that will happen more in single family over time. It's just been such a fragmented market that is less mature, but the returns and yields are higher. And that's why you have invitation homes and other big, large owners that own nationally in this single family space, because if you can figure out how to buy in a market that's working, has the right fundamentals and is working, can get quite a good return. And so, yeah my belief is everyone in this space needs to learn how to have these conversations. And our part is to build as much technology as we can to make it easier for people to navigate.
[00:26:16] What I view is a world that will continue to change and mature and get more sophisticated over time.
[00:26:25] Jason: Well, love it. I think to wrap this up, I think it's really an interesting thought to, you know, when people are picking property management software, I don't think the owner portal is at the top of their list.
[00:26:36] I don't think it's their main focus. They're like, "how is this for me? How is this for me?" Instead of the person that's going to pay them, you know? And so I think this is an interesting take or an interesting concept that Appfolio is placing some attention to focus on. You know, optimizing the owner portal and maybe innovating there to improve the owner's experience, which in turn will benefit the property manager and hopefully help them retain clients longer or showcase the value maybe depending on how you develop it, even convince accidentals to turn into buy and hold long term investors, you know, like, because they can see some numbers and some stats and go, "why would I like give this up?"
[00:27:14] But I think it's an interesting concept and And it also adds some validation to our ROI calculator that we brought to the industry to, so, well, Matthew, it's been great having you on the show. How can people find out more about Appfolio and any parting words for our listeners?
[00:27:29] Matthew: Yeah, go to our website. I'm also pretty available on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. So look me up. Hopefully my name's in the show notes, Matthew Kaddatz at appfolio.com is where we got. I love having conversations with property managers about just what they're experiencing in the business. So always happy to have a conversation with anyone.
[00:27:50] Thank you both for your time. Really appreciated the conversation. Excited what you guys are up to. Sounds like there's some overlap and parallel, which is always a good thing.
[00:27:59] Jason: Well, awesome. Great having you on the show. Thanks Matthew for being here. All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow your business and you are interested in that ROI calculator that Sarah mentioned, make sure to reach out.
[00:28:13] Sarah: It's live now so everyone can get it.
[00:28:16] Jason: So basically it'll show the the ROI on a property, so they can contrast this to like investing in stock or anything else and generally the property is going to win, right? You know, on almost anything. There's no way people can get these kind of returns if they invest. And tax benefits. The tax benefits.
[00:28:35] Sarah: The tax benefits, like this is where it's at people, the tax benefits. And the nice thing, I will also plug this too, is it shows you on a particular property, if you were to buy it cash versus if you were to finance it because sometimes one or the other like totally wrecks the deal Or sometimes one or the other you're like, "well, this is what I want. This is what i'm really looking for tax benefit wise or cash flow wise." Well, okay, then if that's what you're looking for now, I know as a property manager or as a real estate agent. Now, I know which way does the deal make more sense for you? Because perhaps it doesn't make sense if you buy in cash, if you're looking for cash flow or vice versa, right?
[00:29:17] So it kind of gives you the, you know, here's if you do it this way, this is what it looks like. And if you do it this way, this is what it looks like. And it shows you the benefits of both really of both on one report. And it's it's really great. I think it makes it I think it's streamlined everything that make things super simple and it makes these I think one of the big problems really is there are some investors that know how to do this.
[00:29:43] Like we, we talk to them sometimes and they can just, they spit out. They're like, "Oh, I know based off of this data, this is how the taxes would work." But I would say the majority of people, they aren't as familiar with the tax code because it's not a very interesting read. So if they're not as familiar with the tax code, they might not look at it through that lens, or they might miss something.
[00:30:10] This is really nice because it will show you exactly, you know, here's all of the tax benefits, and here's actually what it looks like on this particular property with these particular numbers. Yeah.
[00:30:20] Jason: So special shout out to John Chin for working closely with me on developing this. He has a certification for real estate agents to become investor savvy, all the certified residential investment specialists or Chris.
[00:30:34] So, you know, check that out. And we, I work closely with John for months developing this tool and getting it to work in a certain way that it outputs a nice, pretty PDF. And what's really magical about this is that this is a lead generation tool so that you can provide these documents to on each property.
[00:30:56] You can provide an assessment for real estate agents, and it's branded with your brand and you can give this to real estate agents. They will come and fill out a form and submit a property so that they can get this. You will give it to them. You can create a video about it and send them the video and this document.
[00:31:13] We have give you a script for this as well, and you then have this tool or this resource and they're giving it to their investors, the investors. It's already got property management factored in as part of the investment strategy. And so it's part of the conversation. It's an assumed given thing. So this allows you to get property management clients is the bottom line.
[00:31:34] This is why we developed this for our clients to help them grow faster. And our clients are loving having conversations around this. Yeah.
[00:31:41] Sarah: And they're like, "I'm going to plug this on my website. That way I can just get all this traffic on my website. I can get people right there. Easily accessible. I can promote it right from there. The data goes right to them." It's fantastic.
[00:31:51] Jason: Yeah. This allows you to help real estate agents look smart and look good with investments because most really aren't that good with investments. They aren't familiar. A lot of real estate agents don't even have a single investment. And so 50 percent real estate agents didn't even do a deal last year.
[00:32:05] So let alone with an investor, right? So this allows you to help some of them become more investor savvy and feed you more deals as a property manager. So pretty awesome. So anyway, reach out to us at doorgrow.Com to get access to the ROI calculator. And I guarantee it's going to make you a lot of money if you use it effectively.
[00:32:23] All right. So that's it for today until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.
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