Matt Kibbe is joined by Stanford University epidemiologists Jay Bhattacharya and John Ioannidis to discuss the interaction between science and health policy. The COVID-19 response was one-sided and dictated from the top down, which not only led to many disastrous policies, but also undermined the public trust in science and medicine as institutions. In the future, what is needed is a more humble approach to policymaking that admits its own ignorance and allows the public more opportunities to participate in the decision-making process.