Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Pat Gillen, the Executive Pastor of Families and a teaching pastor from First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church in South Carolina.

How are you cultivating leaders at your church? Are you trying to figure out your next step for developing Gen Z? Tune in as Pat unpacks his church’s innovative strategy for nurturing young leaders through their comprehensive residency program.

• The need for more leaders. // As one of the fastest growing churches in the country, First Baptist Simpsonville  / Upstate Church is currently operating eight campuses, with plans to add a ninth. A distinguishing feature of their approach is the commitment to live teaching at each campus, rather than relying on video sermons. However, as the church has grown, so has the need for effective leaders who can embody the church’s vision and mission. This need for leadership development led to the establishment of a residency program aimed at nurturing young leaders who can step into various roles within the church.
• A two-year program. // The residency program is designed for recent college graduates and spans two years. During that time, residents are integrated into a ministry team, working closely with ministry leaders who act as mentors. This structure allows residents to invest around 30 hours a week in various ministry roles, gaining practical experience and exploring their calling while contributing to the church’s mission. At the end of that two-year timeframe, residents have the opportunity to apply for a position within the church, or take what they’ve learned and use it elsewhere.
• Look within your church. // Sourcing residents can be a challenge, but Pat suggests starting by building and nurturing the leaders you have growing in your church. Begin by developing students in your youth ministry who are looking for opportunities to lead and serve. By investing in and nurturing their leadership potential, you can create a pipeline of future leaders who are already familiar with your church’s culture and mission.
• Set expectations. // Pat explains that working in the residency program at the church won’t necessarily guarantee residents a job there. The focus is on personal and professional development, helping residents discover their calling and equipping them for future ministry roles. Pat recommends that after the first year of residency, mentors should have a conversation with their resident about their next steps and how the church can best equip them moving forward.
• Assign a mentor. // During their time learning from the church, assign the resident a ministry leader to mentor them. Residents should be integrated into the church’s ministry teams, where they participate in discussions, discipleship, and practical training. Mentors are responsible for guiding residents, helping them identify their goals, and providing the necessary support to achieve those objectives.
• Offer expert sessions. // First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church also has equipping sessions for their residents. Some of the church’s best leaders will spend two hours on Wednesday mornings sharing their expertise on a variety of topics, such as counseling, budgeting or other real-world ministry challenges. These sessions gives residents the benefit of the entire staff and not only the ministry leader they work alongside.
• Developing leaders takes time. // Pat warns against viewing a resident as free labor to help out with menial tasks, rather than a chance to invest in future leaders. It’s a time commitment to develop leaders effectively. This investment not only benefits the residents but also multiplies the church’s capacity for ministry.
• Invest in future leaders. // Prioritize investing in the next generation, starting with your kids’ ministry and youth ministry. By identifying and nurturing potential leaders early on, your church can create a pipeline of talent that will sustain your ministries for years to come.

Visit upstatechurch.org to connect with Pat and follow along with what First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church is doing. You can also find our interview with Brian Owens, the Executive Pastor of Operations here.

EXTRA CREDIT // Get the Leadership Residency Program Progress Tracker Templates!

If you’re serious about developing the next generation of church leaders, the Leadership Residency Program Progress Tracker Templates is an invaluable resource. This fillable PDF includes:

• Monthly Progress Check-In Tool – Help residents reflect on their growth and stay focused on their goals.
• Reflection & Goal-Setting Prompts for Residents – Encourage deeper thinking and alignment with the church’s mission.
• Quarterly Performance Review Template – A structured way to review progress and set actionable plans for future growth.

Perfect for churches looking to support their leadership residents, this tool streamlines progress tracking and goal-setting in a practical, easy-to-use format. Available exclusively through unSeminary Extra Credit.

Download the Leadership Residency Program Progress Tracker Templates here and take your leadership development efforts to the next level!

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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. Wow, I’m so excited for today’s conversation. Really looking forward to this because two reasons. One, ah it’s another leader from a church that we had on a few months ago and it’s always good to keep leaning in and learning from churches that are prevailing, making a difference. And then the second, what we’re talking about today is one of those areas that I know all of our churches are wrestling with. We’re thinking about how do we do what we’re going to talk about today. So you’re going to be rewarded by ah leaning in today and and learning. I’m super excited to have Pat Gillen with us. He is from First Baptist Simpsonville/Upstate Church, a fantastic church located in South Carolina. ah They’re one of the fastest growing churches in the country with, I believe, eight or nine campuses, if I’m counting correctly.

Rich Birch — They offer services in Spanish and Portuguese in addition to English. Brian is the executive pastor of operations. Sorry, Brian is executive pastor operations who we had on in the spring. Pat is the Executive Pastor of Families and Fountain Inn Teaching Pastor and has established a residency program in the church. So really excited to have Pat with us today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.

Pat Gillen — Yeah, so glad to be here with you today.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it was great having Brian on back in the spring and excited to have you here today. Why don’t you fill out the picture a little bit? Yeah. I, when people say like good things about other people they work with, that’s positive.

Pat Gillen — Yeah.

Pat Gillen — Yeah, nobody doesn’t like Brian. He’s so.

Rich Birch — Ah, that’s fun.

Rich Birch — Well, why don’t you kind of fill out the picture there a little bit, maybe for people that didn’t catch our episode in the spring or how, you know, people say, Oh, tell me about the church. What’s it kind of describe it to us? Tell us a but little bit about it.

Pat Gillen — Yeah, sure. We’re we’re kind of an established church that probably 20 years ago got into multi-site and didn’t really um fully get into the model we’re in until ah about eight years ago, where we started replicating ourselves in other places instead of just having sort of a daughter campus, you know, that was somewhere else.

Pat Gillen — And so it’s been a part of our DNA, maybe even in the background for quite a while, but in the past eight years, truly, God’s used it in a special way. So you said eight or nine campuses that’s actually pretty accurate. We’re at eight and voting on a ninth right now…

Rich Birch — Oh, oh great. Love it.

Pat Gillen — …trying to figure out that step so we’re in that same kind of limbo stage where we’re about to get nine locations. But it’s such an exciting thing for us because what’s unique about us is we do live teaching at each campus so we don’t do ah video venue or anything like that. We’re not against it. We don’t think it’s bad. But especially in our area, there are a lot of other churches that are doing that. So kind of what helps us stand apart and be unique is having campuses with live teachers.

Pat Gillen — And so and that’s kind of created even our conversation today. What’s brought us to that is it’s almost created a vacuum of of need for leaders that can step up that are a part of our vision and understand it and kind of step into those spots. So that’s been an exciting thing for us as we’ve grown from, when I got here, we had three campuses. Two of those, like I said, we’re almost really like daughter churches. They kind of did their own thing. And then we we covered the bill if they didn’t cover everything. And now ah those campuses have have been reformed once spun off as really truly a mission or daughter church in that way.

Pat Gillen — The other one is was our first ah Upstate Church campus, our Harrison Bridge campus. And then since then, we’ve added so many more. And so it’s such a great thing to be a part of ah communities here in the Upstate. And that’s really our goal and our mission is to reach the Upstate of South Carolina for the kingdom, to connect people to Jesus here. So it’s been awesome.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Well, I, you know, just to kind of put this conversation in context for folks that are listening in that may not know, but we’re still at a place where over 50% of multisite churches don’t get beyond three locations. So your church is rare air. I know you know that is rare air in the fact that you’re eight looking at nine, you know, that we’re down into single digit percentage of multisite churches in the country that have that many locations, which is amazing.

Rich Birch — But then even more notable, like you said, on the teaching front, so the shorthand we say all the time, which is statistically true, but you got to have somebody that bucks the statistics is the larger the church and the more campuses they have, the more likely they are to to use video content. So the fact that you are continuing on with um you know, in-person teaching at all these locations does put you in in a rare air. Part of why I think it’s a great conversation to have today.

Rich Birch — Maybe before we get into specifically about residency programs, which we want to kind of dive into, how are you training those people? Talk to me through that kind of campus pastor, teaching campus pastor, teaching pastor role. Why is that, you know, you kind of gave us the the quick answer, oh, all the churches are doing video. But talk us through that a little bit more. Because it’s a huge investment to say like, hey, we’re going to try to keep, you know, growing people and making that happen. Why are you doing that? What are you learning on that front? Why do you think continue to think that’s the best move for the church?

Pat Gillen — Absolutely. Yeah I think a lot of that comes from our lead pastor and his humility.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — And this is not in any way to say that a pastor would be prideful on video. But his humility and letting other people lead and and have that ah pulpit in those locations is such a um a great leadership tool for him.

Pat Gillen — I think ah part of the way we’ve looked at it is like we can be more effective if we know the people and we’re face to face with the people, if we have that opportunity. So ah most of our campuses we operate in kind of a huddle model, hub model where ah within our original campus or original location there are four churches or four other campuses rather that are within probably 12 to 15 minutes of that.

Pat Gillen — So we’re kind of hitting um the extension of where people you know may still feel like it’s it’s possible to drive here, but they would love one more in their community. So it’s also a little unique because one of our campuses is 3.1 miles away.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Yeah, that’s very close.

Pat Gillen — So it just feels like it’s a crazy idea, um but it’s something that really birthed out of our pastor. If we’re going to reach the upstate, then we need to have ah campuses that are in these communities that are trying to reach those communities for the kingdom. And so it’s really less about um us trying to put everybody in one building or try we say, instead of building up, we’re trying to build out.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Pat Gillen — So a lot of our efforts are that way. It does mean we duplicate a lot of processes in those campuses that other a church that runs our size that maybe in one location would not have to reproduce You don’t have to have ah nine communicators on a Sunday morning.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — You just need one. And so there’s a lot of that that I think we’ve had to figure out through the years. But it’s really allowed us to have a touch point in the upstate that’s unique and different and um kind of have our own um and flair and ministry.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Pat Gillen — Yeah.

Rich Birch — So good. And well, let’s talk about the residency program. So this is a part of kind of there’s there’s ah there’s a problem in churches, which is how do we develop leaders? And you’ve you know clearly outlined why there’s even kind of you’ve decided to have a whole other layer on top of that, which is you know nine communicators. That’s a big piece of the puzzle. But let’s talk through first just the you know the kind of problem part of the equation.

Rich Birch — So um why residency, what got you into this? Why what what led you to the place was there you know that said, hey, this is the area, then we need to spend more time on this. what do what’s the What’s the itch you’re trying to scratch? What’s the pain you’re trying to solve through you know this effort?

Pat Gillen — Well, I probably like a lot of people. I went, I graduated from Liberty University. Went from Liberty to Southeastern, right Seminary in North Carolina, right out of high school, or right out of college. And I was just figuring life out.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Pat Gillen — And I joined a church staff and it was ah it was a great church. I loved it. I still love the people, still connected with those people there, even though it’s been over 20 years. But I just didn’t have anybody pouring into me. I didn’t have anybody helping walk along with me. And of course I had seminary classes but the whole point of your podcast they weren’t teaching practical leadership ah skills. You know we were learning how to teach the word and we’re learning how to preach exegetically. Um, we did a lot of great things there, but, uh, learning some of those practical skills, I had to learn on my own.

Pat Gillen — And if so, it was just a difficult thing. Um, I feel like I didn’t figure out till maybe I was closer to 30 in ministry before I really started, you know, kind of hitting my stride and feeling like I’m, I’m getting a lot more effective here and I know what I’m doing and I’ve kind of figured things out. So really kind of started even almost from that standpoint for me, how can I help young leaders, not be thrown into the fire or or thrown to the lion, so to speak, where they’re trying to figure it out. They’re making mistakes that could be career ending mistakes for some of them, even if they’re not a moral failure, but just um they lose the leadership of the people, or they deal with all kinds of other things.

Pat Gillen — And so we wanted to create a scenario where we could develop leaders, help them walk them through that process, help them discover their calling. That’s really the the itch that we’re trying to scratch. Obviously, here, every time we launch a campus, we we launch it with a campus pastor, a worship ah leader, and then a kids coordinator. So for every one of those campuses we launch, we’ve got to have another kids person in the boot.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Pat Gillen — And then soon after that, a student person, ah depending on size.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — So um it’s it’s something that we’re constantly trying to find new faces and new leaders. And so as a church, we are feeling that pain at the pace we’re growing. You mentioned I think we’re a ninth fastest growing church in the nation ah this past year and the fastest growing Southern Baptist Church. So for us, it really has been a pain point of how can we get the right leaders in there, not just a warm body, not just somebody who um you know can can stand there and do a halfway decent job. But how can we get the right leader that’s going to help and and actually be somebody we can trust in that campus?

Rich Birch — Love it. So let’s let’s talk about when you say residency, what does that mean? You know what is I’ve heard churches use that word. When you use the word residency, what do you mean by that?

Pat Gillen — Yeah, we’ve talked a little bit about even changing the name to School of Ministry or something along that lines. But essentially for us, what a residency is, is two years post-college. We encourage them to do graduate school, seminary, depending on what they do. ah So if we we may have a communications person or a worship person that doesn’t pursue a seminary degree but gets a certificate instead…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …or um does a different kind of training. But we pursue seminary education as a part of that and that’s that’s really a process. So college graduates, they spend two years with us and after that two years, man, we’re just we’re really hoping whether it’s a two-year job interview that they are able to come on with us, or we actually get to send them out. And our hope and our prayer is to impact the upstate of South Carolina, so you know we want people that we can feed into churches to be leaders in the upstate and lead their church to healthy models too.

Rich Birch — Love it. Let’s talk about where you find these residents. Cause I think people could agree like, Oh yeah, I’d love to find…

Pat Gillen — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …like, that seems like a sweet spot. Man, if I could, if I could find a regular batch of, you know, post, you know, graduate kind of folks that are just finished school and they’re looking for this kind of thing, how how are you finding them? What’s been your, your sweet spot on finding folks?

Pat Gillen — Oh, that’s great. I think part of it for us is we’re not in a college town.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — We’re also we’re not close to a lot of seminaries or anything like that. Anderson University is about 45 minutes to an hour away. We have a campus there.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — And North Greenville is about the same distance away. We don’t have a campus up there yet. But we do have some connections. So there are some relationships that have helped, I think, through that. But I think the main thing for us, we’re actually trying to develop um our leaders here when they’re in high school. We’re trying to pour into them, disciple them…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Pat Gillen — …nurture that calling that they have, and actually create a pipeline to to keep building into them. Because we know, and you know you’ve heard it said, like students are not the leaders of tomorrow. They’re the leaders of today. We’ve heard those kind of sound bites. But a lot of people aren’t giving them opportunities to lead, giving them opportunities to serve. So we elevate those leaders, give them opportunities to lead, and then always try to develop in them a sense of…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Pat Gillen — …hey, when when you are ready to discover that calling, we wanted you to be a part of this back. So I would say probably a number of of our residents are ones that were either a part of our ministry before or at least while they were in college, ah connected with us to some level. And so that’s probably the majority of us.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good

Pat Gillen — We’re trying to say, hey, how can we develop leaders in-house. And honestly, the people that we may even hire one day out of the residency program, and we hired two full-time just recently with this last group that graduated for us, is they know us better than anybody that we could bring in, you know?

Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, yeah, for sure. They get a huge head start. That’s great. I love that. I remember um just recently I was at a church where they were talking about a young adult weekend. They had like a bunch of young adults went away to a conference. And at the conference, it was like a weekend thing, and the um the speaker, they had like a it felt really old school like back from when you and I seemed like similar generation when we started ministry where there was like a, do, are you sensing a call to full-time vocational ministry we want to get you, you know, come to the front now we want to pray for you kind of thing. And I was and I was encouraging this church I was like man we got to do that.

Pat Gillen — Right.

Rich Birch — Like because it feels like we dropped that out of the equation in a lot of our student ministries that was like it’s just not a part of the conversation. And we’re missing that. So I love that you’re, hey, even with high school students trying to raise the value of that and trying to get out in front of that.

Rich Birch — Talk me through the tension of, um you know, this is a ah training process. We’re trying to actually develop leaders. um This isn’t like a ah two year job interview. Like they, it’s they’re not guaranteeing people like, hey, you’re going to get a job. How do you talk about that with people with potential residents? And then how do you think about that? How do those two things kind of relate together?

Pat Gillen — Yeah. I mean, we, uh, we tell them from the beginning, it’s not a promise…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …to a job here at our church.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — And who’s to say we would even be in the financial situation by that point…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …that we could hire them on. Um, so we, we, you know, would be willing to have that conversation, but we’re really just upfront from the beginning about that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — Usually about a year into the residency, we start talking, all right, next steps. Uh, what do we need to start looking at? How can we help equip you the best…

Rich Birch — Good.

Pat Gillen — …to be prepared for those, whatever’s next for you, whether that’s here or somewhere else. And even ones that we would really love to hire, I’ll I’ll get phone calls from people and I’ll still pass their information along…

Rich Birch — Oh, really? Good for you. Yeah.

Pat Gillen — …because I want I don’t want to stand in the way of what God may be leading them to do. But that’s not what what we’re about. We’re really kingdom-minded in the way that we’re approaching this to say, that’s That’s our goal is not to say, hey, how can we build up ourselves? But really, how can we build up those next leaders?

Pat Gillen — You’re right, man. Like I don’t know I don’t want to blame student ministries or student pastors, but as a church as a whole, we are not um inviting people to step up and pursue the calling that God has on their lives for ministry.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — And so oftentimes it’s like, well, they just don’t make money, or they work crazy hours. And that’s true. Those those things are all a factor.

Rich Birch — Yeah, those things are true.

Pat Gillen — But in reality, the best part about this program that we tell them is we’re helping you discover your calling.

Rich Birch — So good.

Pat Gillen — So, you know, I came out of ministry. I felt like I had a specific calling to student ministry when I started out. And that’s where I started while I was in seminary. I’ve been in several different roles since then, obviously. But I felt that kind of clarity. A lot of ah Gen Z is coming out of college and going, I don’t know yet. I don’t know what I want to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — I don’t know how I want to fit. And so part of what we’re trying to do is say, okay, let’s let’s investigate that. What are you interested in? What do you feel led toward? Let’s kind of steer you that direction. And then six months in, if that’s not a fit, you know, and it’s not working, let’s try something else.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — And I love that because it really gives you the ability to have your finger in multiple ah levels or multiple areas of ministry to see this is the one I’ve been really passionate about that God is leading me down that path. And so that I mean I wish I had that even though I felt that certain conviction of myself myself in the student ministry at the beginning. I love that heart and that passion that that students can have or or our ah residents can have to to discover that.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it. Now what about, I’m sure a part of what you end up doing is having a conversation with the leaders at your church and trying to help them catch a vision for like, Hey, there’s like a, my impression of, of this kind of situation is it’s like, it’s two steps backwards to go one step forward or other way around two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward. Like there’s a, we’ve got to slow down and develop leaders.

Pat Gillen — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I’m sure, or is it just everybody at upstate, it’s like, we’re all for developing leaders and I don’t mind spending extra time on this stuff. How do you work that through with your team internally who might be hesitant to you know want to invest in a resident, spend time with them, that sort of thing? Cause they’re like, I got lots going on already.

Pat Gillen — Yeah, you’re right. Everybody’s schedule is full. I would say it’s probably less that they’re not interested in developing leaders than we do have some that may not know how to. Or know how they’re supposed to invest in those leaders.

Pat Gillen — Kind of what we do is in the residency program is we bring them in. We are a team and we function as a team. And there are things that we cover as a team that we talk about, we discuss, we do discipleship together, we do what we call equipping, which is practical ministry and in many ways, theological ministry, ah discussing through, um you know, some even deep theological issues through that as a team to kind of really help them develop ah depth ah to what they believe.

Pat Gillen — But we set them in a ministry and we consider that ministry leader their actual boss. So um that ministry leader has the ability, for instance, ah Steve, our missions pastor, executive pastor missions, has the ability to actually pour into the resident that he has, spend an extreme amount of time with him, finding out what his specific goals are and how he can help him meet those goals.

Pat Gillen — And so it’s kind of a, um it’s kind of a win-win because we’re helping the residents meet those goals. They’re helping us reach goals.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — You know, they’re a part of our team. um We get somebody who’s here that is ah not just an, not an intern or anything like that. They’re putting in you know, 30 hours a week with us.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — And, uh, and able to help us move the, move the ball forward, especially as we continue to expand. But really we’re able to put that time in. They’re not just moving chairs, you know?

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

Pat Gillen — We’re trying to develop as a leader. I mean, that was the old idea, like, Oh, you got an intern, have them set up the tables.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Pat Gillen — Like this is, this is not that at all.

Rich Birch — You’ll pick up the Chick-fil-A or whatever. Yeah, it’s not that we’re doing more than…

Pat Gillen — Yeah, exactly. Now there may be, so there may be some of that…

Rich Birch — Yeah, but that’s normal in ministry. That’s not That’s a part of life for sure.

Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I I love about this is, and I’ve said this for years, I’m like, man, you can in school, you can learn like the right thing to say or the right kind of theologically true stuff. But there’s it’s very different when, you know for instance, the first time someone that you’re sitting across the coffee table with, a volunteer, somebody that we’re at your church says, I’m thinking about leaving my wife. You know, man yeah what we don’t want is people you know to flub that interaction. And you know the getting people real world experience like that in ah in a in a safe environment where that’s not all lies on you, because um unfortunately, like you know, what you say in the next 30 seconds after someone says that to you matters. Like it it’s it’s…

Pat Gillen — Yeah, that’s right.

Rich Birch — You know, and there’s lots of those. There’s lots of examples of that kind of stuff. Talk me through, um you know, what does that look like? I’m trying to give people some real world, um whether it’s pastoral care or, you know, maybe it’s like a preaching thing where it’s like, hey, the stakes are a little bit higher here, but we’re doing it in a way that gives them some support so that they can gain that experience, but that we’re not also dropping the ball with our people.

Pat Gillen — Well, that’s so true. And I iI think a lot of us learn that the hard way.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.

Pat Gillen — And, you know, I tell people you can never surprise me when when I’m in a counseling session. And there’s sometimes I’m like…

Rich Birch — Just did.

Pat Gillen — …that actually I’m just not a game face right now.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Pat Gillen — So I think what we do with our equipping sessions, we bring some of the best leaders on our church staff to actually adopt one of those times.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Pat Gillen — And they’ll spend two hours with them on a Wednesday morning and they’ll pour out like ah their expertise on counseling, or their expertise on how to handle a funeral, or how to handle a wedding, or um or just how to how to deal with somebody who’s struggling with same-sex attraction, or or somebody who’s depressed or has anxiety, or even just like how to how to create a budget.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Pat Gillen — Like these are things that you did not learn in class.

Rich Birch — No, sure.

Pat Gillen — So we have our top leaders just just meeting with them, helping them develop ah pipelines, making sure they’re they’re making disciples who are making disciples. And ministry can easily become just, hey, I’ve got to get there to set up the chairs. I’ve got to make sure the lights are on. And we’re not truly pouring into people. And so equipping them to to look at ministry, not as the tyranny of the urgent…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …but to look at ministry as this is my opportunity to develop leaders, even as a 22 to 24 year old…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Pat Gillen — …looking ahead. And so they really get the benefit of our entire staff. It’s not like it’s…

Rich Birch — Yeah, just you.

Pat Gillen — …there’s one of us. I’m certainly not the expert that goes in there every week and tries to tell them how to how to do everything. So they get that benefit. Probably something our entire staff would but would really benefit from us doing um if we needed another meeting that would [inaudible]. But it is it is a ah great advantage for them.

Pat Gillen — And so we scope kind of a two-year curriculum for that, if you want to consider it that way, so that we can repeat it every two years. So no matter where somebody comes in on our residency program, they’ll ah they’ll actually get all of those pieces.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Yeah, I love that.

Rich Birch — I love that. That’s, you know, that’s so fantastic. So it’s just you and me, Pat, you know, there’s nobody else listening in.

Pat Gillen — All right.

Rich Birch — What’s that thing about, you know, it’s kind of like the dirty secret or the pothole to avoid about residency programs that like, hey, nobody told us this. Nobody said there would be this problem. You know, I know that there’s like real issues with doing this. What are the thing that you, you say to friends, that they’re they’re like, Hey, we’re thinking about this. You may not say it in a podcast in front of people, but you know, you’re, you’d you’d love to [inaudible] it’s just us. We’re just just just chatting about what’s going on.

Pat Gillen — Right, right, right. Well, I think the biggest thing when I’m talking to other people is churches see what we do and they think, oh, I get free labor.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Pat Gillen — And so um I can take advantage of that and get some free labor. And they’re looking just to offload work…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …instead of looking to develop a leader.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — So the number one thing I would say, and you kind of hit on earlier, that people overlook is the time investment…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …that it actually takes to develop a leader. But ultimately you’re multiplying yourself. You’re able to do far more than you could by doing that. I think a lot of people don’t see that.

Rich Birch — Appreciate that.

Pat Gillen — And I would I would also say the the generational thing is probably always a challenge. Just um with Gen Z, we tell our our group, we’re like, this residency is designed for you to take initiative. And so there’s a fundraising component to what we do.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Pat Gillen — And we thought, we’re like, hey, at one point, maybe we should do what we can to pay them instead of doing the fundraising, if we could ever get to that point, which would be great. And then really, the more we prayed about it, the more we thought about it, we’re like, this fundraising component actually helps them realize they’ve got to get out there…

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — …they’ve got to make connections, they’ve got to talk to people, they’ve got to hustle. And that’s what our residency is about. It’s about kind of putting them in scenarios where, excuse me, it putting them in scenarios where if they’re waiting on somebody else to tell them what to do. This is going to be a long two years.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Pat Gillen — But they’re connected with the ministry leader. They’re seeing holes that they can uniquely identify um because they have fresh eyes. They have fresh experiences and trying to fill those holes and step up…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Pat Gillen — …and help us excel and improve as a ministry. So I think a lot of people overlook that. They think, hey, it’s this is just going to be a a free person and they should be lucky. They should be thankful for us that we’re giving them a house to live in or whatever the case is.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — And so instead, we we feel grateful that we have these young leaders who’d be willing to spend two years with us and develop their skills as a part of our community.

Rich Birch — That’s cool. What what do you say, you know, what’s the kind of time commitment on on your side? Like if you were to say, like one of those, the super people that’s a supervisor, what does that look like? And then what would you say at kind of a central team, whether it’s yourself or like, give us a sense of what that kind of time commitment is on both sides. So if I’ve got a resident in my area that, what does that look like? And then kind of as an organization, what what do you, what do you feel like you’re investing?

Pat Gillen — That’s good. Basically, it’s like having a part-time employee with you.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Pat Gillen — So what we have been doing in the past is almost probably the opposite way of what we should be doing it. We have a resident that would apply and that resident is interested in student ministry. I’ll contact our student ministry and say, let’s interview this person. Let’s see if they would be a good fit.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Pat Gillen — And we go that direction. What we’re trying to move toward is actually having those ministry leaders say, hey, I’m looking for somebody and I would love to have somebody develop.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Pat Gillen — And so that way we can be more intentional as we interview these residents and bring them on to to plug them up with a need that we have specifically as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Pat Gillen — So it’s just going to help us maybe multiply a little better in that way. But yeah, I would say 20 to 25 hours that they spend with the ministry hands on, depending on the ministry, some of those can be, um you know, nights or or weekends. And some of those are in the office, you know, just a regular type job. It just depends on what type of ministry they’re in. And I tell residents or future residents, if we have it at our church, you can do it. So, communications ministry, or um senior adults, or kids, if if you’re interested in any of those things, you can apply as a part of our residency. And so…

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Pat Gillen — …part of that’s going to really be birthed out of now those leaders saying, okay, I could really use somebody to work with senior adults. And that may be a more difficult resident to find, but there’s some out there.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Gillen — And so we’re going to try and and dig into what that looks like. And um a lot of our residents have two responsibilities or or what we call dual roles.

Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.

Pat Gillen — So they may have, ah they may be in one ministry for 10 to 15 hours, another ministry for 10 to 15 hours,. Or one one for 15, one for five or something like that. So just kind of gives them a little opportunity to to put their toe in a few different spots and see which one they’re more passionate about too. So um it really helps us having them around. I would say as part of our central resident team is is about a five hour or so commitment every week with us.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Pat Gillen — And then we tell them they’re full-time seminary students and they’re part-time with us. So we really want them to have time to focus on education and we believe that’s important.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Pat Gillen — So the way we particularly set that up from a financial standpoint is we actually give them a scholarship to pay for their seminary.

Rich Birch — Oh, interesting.

Pat Gillen — And then we contribute toward their fundraising and then they raise the remaining of that fundraising on their own. And so ultimately, our church’s commitment is around $15,000 a year per resident…

Rich Birch — Wow, that’s great.

Pat Gillen — …ah but then they raise an additional amount of money ah for them as well. And then when we have a how housing option, we make that available to them. So I’ve got three houses right now that were parsonages from a church that merged with us.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — Or a church that we or a house that we bought that’s because we wanted to to get the land next to our church or whatever. And so I’ll I’ll house them in there when that’s available too. So that really does become a ah huge benefit when they start counting the number.

Rich Birch — Oh, yeah.

Pat Gillen — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. Well, and you can see where that, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I can see if somebody’s going to seminary, they’re like, okay, I could piece this together. I know there’s like that part of it. And I, you know, I like that, that fundraising piece. I could see, you know, that’s a, that’s, those are helpful skills to kind of work and exercise and, and yeah, the housing, all that. That’s yeah, that’s so good. Good stuff.

Rich Birch — Well, when you think about um kind of the future of the program and you’re thinking about where where did this could go, what are some of the questions you’re asking, or you look up over the horizon and you’re thinking, man, it’d be kind of fun to do this someday. It’s not necessarily today. What’s what’s the future look like for this, ah for Upstate?

Pat Gillen — Yeah, the future is exciting and scary all at the same time. As we continue to put campuses, ah you the most recent one we’ve been talking to is about an hour away.

Rich Birch — Right.

Pat Gillen — As we continue to do that and think through how do we develop this program and have leaders in that program, we’ve really got to think next level about that connectivity and making sure that we’re all on the same page and where we’re going to.

Pat Gillen — So that’s a big challenge for us for any multi-site churches that are looking into that. I think I would love to learn from them too on how they’re best communicating with one another in that central team and looking at that ah from these guys. Because they won’t really be a part of a central team except for their connection with the residency. So um that’s probably the biggest question mark for us moving forward as we…

Rich Birch — Sure, sure.

Pat Gillen — …if we get two and three hours away, how do we stay connected? How do we set that up? But it’s exciting as God continues to bring um amazing leaders our way. We’re we’re really still ah learning at this in many ways, but we have 10 residents starting in January…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Pat Gillen — …and we’ll open up a few more spots next year.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — And so we hope to continue to be able to grow that as we move along.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Man, it’s so exciting. I love it’s been so good to kind of get a little bit of behind the scenes curtain look into this. It’s just so ah we’re behind the curtain look in this. It’s so so exciting. Anything you’d like to share just as we kind of look to wrap up today’s episode?

Pat Gillen — Oh man, just my heart to see leaders developed and my heart to see us lean into the next generation is something I feel like, you know, God’s given me a passion for. And certainly just as a challenge for churches if they’re trying to figure out where to start, um they should start with their kids ministry.

Rich Birch — Good call.

Pat Gillen — They should start with their student ministry. I think sometimes we look for a leader to come in and fix things and we ourselves are not discipling the next generation to be leaders today right now where we are. So my challenge would just be that. I’d be like, hey, you you have what you need in front of you. And the churches that are struggling, the churches that we talk to often that are even closing their doors, are the ones that did not prioritize…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Pat Gillen — …the next generation and letting them lead.

Rich Birch — So good.

Pat Gillen — So that’s certainly my challenge and encouragement, yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good. I love a part of what I you love about what you’re saying here is for me, what is strikes me about churches like yours, yours specifically, um who are doing a good job on this residency, you know, thing or developing next generation leaders in even more broader sense is, you know, you’re not thinking about solving today’s problems residents are gonna solve they’re gonna solve some but they’re not gonna solve your January, February problems this year. You know what they are but but what you do know is, man, if we can train some people now and get really strategic about that now and apply effort to that and do that consistently. Man, two years from now, three years from now, four years from now, you’re going to have this pipeline of of of young leaders that you can plug in that, man, that gives you a huge leg up long term. So I just think that’s that’s just so encouraging to see, ah you know, your church you’re really trying to get intentional about this. So so good on you. Great stuff.

Pat Gillen — Well, that’s true. One more thought, Rich, is a lot of churches will not have a problem with paying a fee to a hiring firm to get a pastor in. And if you think about what that fee generally costs and you invest that in the next generation instead, you can develop those same leaders…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Pat Gillen — …for probably less money than you’re paying just somebody else to to bring somebody in.

Rich Birch — Oh, absolutely. Like that. Well, that to talk about dirty secrets, like that is the dirty secret. The like man, like we all the reason why and I have friends that are in the kind of search business, like I get it, you know, that want to go and find…

Pat Gillen — It’s a great ministry; it’s needed.

Rich Birch — It’s very it’s needed, but those people end up hired. And I’ve hired those folks in the past when I’ve like, I’ve got a burning hole right now that I’m like, we have got to solve this problem. But the thing is, those come around with fair regularity, and if we can get ahead of it and think, okay, I don’t know, you know, I don’t know like In four years, I’m going to need more leaders. I know that. I don’t know what they’re goingI don’t know what we’re going to need them to do, but we’re going to need them somewhere.

Pat Gillen — Right.

Rich Birch — What can we do today to try to even get, like you’re saying, get into student ministry even earlier in the pipeline, starting to think about who are the young leaders? How do we identify them? What can we do? I just love that. That’s so good. Well, Pat, this has been a rich conversation. I really appreciate you ah being here today and helping us through this.

Pat Gillen — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Where do we want to send people online if they want to connect with you or with the church?

Pat Gillen — Yeah. Upstatechurch.org would be a great place.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Pat Gillen — So I’d love to talk to anybody that wants any help or can help us. That’d be great.

Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Pat. Appreciate you being here today.

Pat Gillen — Yeah. Thanks a lot, Rich.