You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is Amy Palanjian.

Amy is my work wife and best friend of over 20 years. She’s also the creator of Yummy Toddler Food and author of the nationally bestselling cookbook Dinnertime SOS: 100 Sanity-Saving Meals Parents and Kids of All Ages Will Actually Want to Eat.

Amy joined me last month at Split Rock Books to celebrate the launch of FAT TALK in paperback. They also host the Burnt Toast Bookshop for us, and are forever the place to get my books signed and personalized however you like!

So we talked about the book, of course, but we also got into how family dinners have changed for us post-divorce, why cooking with kids is terrible, and then Amy outed my (not so) secret love of protein powder. 😂

(Bear with some imperfect audio, since we weren’t recording with our usual set-up — but Tommy worked his magic as usual so it’s still highly listen-to-able!)

If you find today’s episode valuable, a paid subscription is the best way to support this work!

Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Episode 183 Transcript

Amy

Okay, so we are here to celebrate your paperback release, and we had a burning question from the front row. Can you tell us if and how this book is different than the hardcover?

Virginia

Yes! Okay, so I don’t know how familiar folks are with publishing, but a lot of hardcovers don’t ever get a paperback. It’s just the way the industry is working these days, fewer and fewer books make it to paperback. So it was very exciting to make it to paperback! And part of how you make it to paperback is you and your editor brainstorm all the ways you can make the paperback really good so they’ll want to print it.

Most of the book is the same, but there is a foreword written by Kate Manne who is an amazing fat activist and feminist philosophy professor at Cornell. She’s the author of the incredible book, Unshrinking. She wrote a beautiful foreword. And then there’s an afterword by me where I talk about what it was like to launch this book at the height of Ozempic Mania, and how that played a role in the conversations around the book, how it led so many men on the Internet to have feelings about me.

Amy

I was going to ask if you can talk a little bit more about how the world feels different or how your maybe your intended audience feels a little bit different from when you first released the book to now? If it does.

Virginia

Obviously there’s the huge conversation happening now around the semaglutide drugs and this idea that now weight loss is within all of our reach. Now, I think what we’re seeing increasingly from the data is that it doesn’t put weight loss within everyone’s reach. There’s also a very valid conversation to be had about whether we need weight loss to be within everyone’s reach. Everyone is allowed to make their own choices for their bodies. But what would it actually do for the world if we could make everyone thin?

Audience Member

That’s funny. Sorry, that’s ridiculous.

Virginia

Yes! So in short, it’s ridiculous. But I think what it does mean is that the conversation around weight loss is louder in a lot of ways. I mean, in some ways, I think traditional diet conversation it is less because that’s not what people are doing now to lose weight. But the fact that anytime, as a person in a larger body, I go to the doctor, this is likely to come up. You’re just navigating it in a whole other way now. And what the Ozempic conversation has really done is given anti-fatness and diet culture this “well, why not?” sort of answer. Like, “Well, we’ve got this now, so why wouldn’t you?”

And again, this is not to demonize anyone’s personal choices! We’re all allowed to do what we want with our bodies. But there are lots of us that feel like that shouldn’t be the only answer, or shouldn’t be where the conversation stops and starts.

What I’m also noticing is that we have a lot of people who are like, “Well, I am doing this because my doctor said it was important for my health. Can I still be for fat liberation? Can I still be against diet culture?” And the answer is absolutely yes. So I think we need to create space for the fact that people are going to make their own choices for their bodies, because that’s core to body autonomy and body liberation. But we can also still name anti-fatness and calling it out and trying to dismantle it. So it’s more nuanced now. Because we have to hold those two things together.

Amy

So, say you go to the doctor because your knee hurts and the subject of weight loss comes up, or weight loss drugs come up. What are some questions that you might ask for more context?

Virginia

Well, I think the first question that’s always useful to ask is: How would you treat this condition for a thin person? Because someone in a thin body that shows up with knee pain is not prescribed weight loss. We know for any health condition, there are multiple ways of going about it because weight loss isn’t the answer for everybody. So asking them to think about, “what would you do for a thin person? Can we start with that for me?” is a useful starting point.

Then I think having a direct conversation is important. And this is scary and vulnerable and really hard to do. But most of us who are fat, we’ve done weight loss. That’s not something we have no experience with. So saying, like, “I’ve done this, it hasn’t worked for me. This is what happens when I’m dieting.” This is the toll it takes on my mental health and my emotional health. This is why it’s not realistic for my lifestyle, because of my job schedule or my parenting schedule. And helping the doctor understand that while yes, that might solve a problem that they’re trying to solve for you, the ripple effect of that “solution” in your life also matters.

So does that actually solve your problem, or does that give you many other problems? That’s going to be a different answer for everybody. But that’s the nuance that I want doctors to have. It’s not that I never want doctors to talk about weight, it’s that I want them to be understanding that the conversation doesn’t start and end with weight loss, and that you’re allowed to be a person with a whole context to your life.

Amy

Okay, so, speaking of versions of your book, I have a 12 year old who was obsessed with your hardcover book, and she has heard that you are noodling around the idea of a YA version. She has volunteered herself to be as helpful as possible, and would really like to know if this is happening.

Virginia

Okay, we are in early conversations—this is early, early, early!—to do a middle grade version of the book. I would be delighted to have your 12-year-old write it! She and I need to talk. We’re figuring out what of the book needs to go into a middle grade version.

One interesting thing that came up, actually, in a conversation with the editors was they are concerned—and the same thing happened with the hard cover. With the hard cover, people said, “Should we call it FAT TALK? Because maybe that means only parents of fat kids will buy the book!” Like, as if parents of thin kids never think about fatness or have no relationship to this concept. And I was like, no, I don’t think that will be the case. And it wasn’t.

But with FAT TALK for kids, they’re saying, is this a title that makes sense to put on a middle grade book? Will only fat kids read it? Will that create stigma? Like, what do we do about that?

So this is a conversation I need to have with your kid and other kids, because I think it’s a fair point. I think there are lots of great books for kids that talk about body image. I don’t think there are books that explain to kids that we’re talking about a systemic form of oppression, that explain it as a system, that explain what diet culture is, what this industry is, and what they’re trying to sell you. That’s information kids in every body size need, because we’re all navigating it. But how do we bring that to the kids? So that’s what we’re working on right now.

Amy

You can ask her and I’m sure she will talk at you.

So this is not meant to sound as—I don’t know how this could sound. But okay, so you really love protein powder? It seemed like a good segue. I would like to hear about your relationship with protein powder. Because it is, you know, like… protein is… yeah. So tell us about that.

Virginia

Amy has decided to out me. This is all going on Reddit right now.

Okay, yes, I enjoy protein powder in my smoothies. I learned about protein powder on my last diet, which was in 2015 which was a time in my life where I thought I was being really critical of diet culture, but I definitely..wasn’t. So I was writing a piece for Self Magazine about whether detoxes are worth it, and following a detox diet for two months as “research.” So I was obviously still very much in that world. I mean, I was still writing for women’s magazines. But I did this terrible detox where they didn’t let me eat anything except protein powder and chicken broth or whatever. And I did quit the detox, I think after only a couple weeks. Do you remember this?

Amy

Was this the chicken thighs one?

Virginia

That was a different one. Oh man. Our 20s were a bad time.

I can’t remember how long I did it for it, but I did, in the course of the detox, get really into this protein powder. Even though it has now been almost 10 years since I’ve tried to lose weight in any intentional way, I still love this protein powder in my smoothies every morning. It’s just tasty. And I think part of it is, we’re allowed to reclaim these pieces of diet culture that actually we do really like. You don’t have to reject it wholesale just because it got marketed to us.

But I did have to spend some time divesting from my relationship with the protein powder.

Amy

What are some other foods that you reclaimed, besides Diet Coke? Because I feel as though maybe we all know about that one. But are there others?

Virginia

I’m recently getting back into kale and I think you’re going to be mad. Amy does not like kale, which is a controversial position for a food blogger to take! Because there are a lot of expectations that you would like kale, I think. It’s expected to be part of your brand. But I think I do like kale?

Amy

In what way?

Virginia

Julia Turshen had this really great recipe. I actually made it on Christmas Day but I have made it since, where you take Lacinato kale and you slice it up pretty thin and you really massage it with a lot of lemon and oil and stuff, and then there’s a chickpea thing you make up the air fryer and you put on top. And I think it’s delicious!

Amy

Okay. I have this recipe for kale bites. I did legitimately make them a lot when my oldest was a toddler and she ate them. I mean, it’s kale in a bucket of cheese. It’s one of the oldest recipes on my website and almost all of the content has been updated at least once, and I keep seeing that in the list, and I’m like, I cannot make them. I’m sorry.

What is your go-to line when you are at a meal with, say, family, and someone says something either disparaging about themselves and what they’re eating or about food in general.

How do you react? If you do.

Virginia

I mean, I just want to say it’s hard to have one line for this. I get asked this a lot and people want one go-to line but it’s so context specific. And, it’s really okay if you just don’t engage. I’m actually doing less engaging these days, because I feel like it just often goes badly, and you’re not going to change hearts and minds by being combative in these moments. They are where they are. It’s better to preserve your bandwidth for things you really need to do. So often I don’t say anything.

But where I will say something is if someone comments on how my child is eating, or my child’s body. That is one where I will insert myself. Because that’s not okay. And then I’ll probably say something like, “Oh, we trust them. We’re not worried about this.” Like, this isn’t something we’re worrying about right now. We trust them to eat how they need to eat.

I frame it this way because I’m less concerned with “how do I convince this person that I’m correct,” and more concerned with “what do I want my kid to hear in that moment?” And what I want my kid to hear is, “My mom trusts me and trusts my body, and is not concerned about how I’m eating.”

Amy

I will also say that, as my kids have gotten older, when comments from other people happen about what someone is eating themselves, talking about it afterward has become very interesting. Even just asking, “Did you hear what whoever said at the table? What did you think of that?” Just so that they start to develop the ability to notice those types of comments and then get to have their own opinion about them. It’s very interesting to see what they say.

Virginia

Definitely.

Amy

Speaking of kids, what is your go-to family meal?

Virginia

My children have many great qualities, but they’re not adventurous eaters. They’re wonderful, spectacular human beings. But. My house is me and my two daughters. I would say our go-to family meal these days is some kind of pasta with some kind of red sauce, plus a snack plate that includes Cheez-Its and sliced cheese and fruit. Because one child won’t eat pasta, and so she’s going to have the cheese and crackers for dinner. And I’ve just kind of made my peace with that’s how family dinner looks like in our house right now.

What I’m really more focused on is, how do we foster connection at the family table? How do we make sure that they feel safe and welcome showing up there? And I have not always gotten it right! This has been a really rocky part of my parenting a lot of the time. But at least if the food is familiar and comforting to them, then I know we have that in place.

And when in doubt, those smoothies with the protein powder make me feel less freaked out about their overall intake. So we all do those for breakfast.

Amy

So, Virginia and I are both divorced. I’ve always felt pretty detached from what my kids eat. I mean, I put out what’s for dinner, and then they eat what they eat. And I have three very different eaters. But once I took another adult out of the equation, somehow there is just less pressure overall on family meals. There’s no other fully grown person having any opinion whatsoever. It’s just little kids. So our meals have gotten a lot more fun. Not the food! But we will often go around the table and each person gets to pick two songs and then we play them.

So my bandwidth has changed a lot as I’ve put some distance in between that value on family dinner in the same way. I think it’s also because the kids are older. There’s no high chair situation. They can actually put food in their own mouths without it falling on the floor.

Virginia

They don’t need to be touching you while they’re eating.

Amy

I mean, that is brand new. And I have an-almost six-year-old. But there is a lot more room for it just to be about safety and connection and the food is there. So that’s been nice.

What are some meals that you make just for yourself?

Virginia

I order sushi a lot. That’s what I make for myself. The Uber Eats app. I also eat a lot of pasta. My child comes by that very honestly.

What else do I eat? Amy, you stumped me.

Amy

I actually don’t know. You eat The Cheese.

Virginia

Oh, right. Thank you. There’s this really good marinated sheep goat cheese by Meredith Dairy that I thanked in the acknowledgements of this book. I love it so much, and I will build a lot of meals around that cheese. It’s good on pasta, it’s good on toast, it’s good on a salad. It’s a real building block for me.

Amy

There’s this idea that if you have your kids in the kitchen with you, they will turn into a certain type of eater. Did you cook with your kids when they were little?

Virginia

Well, I tried, but it’s terrible! It’s terrible to cook with small children. They’re so bad at it, and it’s so messy, and you just get very impatient. I think that that is exactly the kind of toxic and misleading image of motherhood we are sold, about what it means to be this perfect mom raising healthy eaters. Then you get there and there’s freaking flour everywhere, and raw eggs, and you’re just like, “Get out of the kitchen! Go watch TV.”

I remember a turning moment in my feminism motherhood journey was when I was reporting a story for a parenting magazine about screen time and how terrible screen time is for children. And I interviewed this male researcher from Harvard who was studying screen time with children, and he was talking about how terrible it was, and how our children should not have screen time. And I said, “Well, okay, but I do let my three year old watch TV when I’m cooking dinner, because how else am I going to do it?” And he said, “Why don’t you invite her in? Kids love a bag of flour to play with.” And I was like, Sir, it’s Wednesday night. It’s 5pm. I need dinner on the table. And you’re suggesting I give a three-year-old a bag of flour?

Amy

Also it says right on it, raw, do not eat!

Virginia

I’m talking about flour on my ceiling!

Amy

I’m imagining it going in their mouth and then on the ceiling.

Virginia

Who’s cleaning that up?

Audience Member

Not him!

Virginia

Obviously.

I googled him. He was on his second wife, it all made sense. She was a lot younger. They did have a child, but I am sure he is not at all involved in making dinner.

I think this is one of those times where, if you love baking and if baking with your children gives you joy, that’s wonderful. Do it! We love that for you! But if that’s not your bliss, there are so many other ways to connect with your kids.

And I think that’s something I’ve had to come to terms with. Because I don’t have kids who are super-food oriented, dinner isn’t where we talk about our day often. Dinner is often like, we’re getting through it, people are grumpy, there is sibling conflict, nobody wants to sit still, etc — and then they’re going to snuggle up at bedtime and tell me everything about themselves.

There’s this pressure that parents, that moms especially, have that we have to have these perfect family dinners, and if we don’t, our kids are going to grow up to be drug addicts because we didn’t ask them about their day enough at the dinner table and all of that. And that’s just not every family. And that’s not definitely mine now, post-divorce. It’s just not what my family looks like anymore.

And I actually like it better this way.

Amy

Okay, so you have some stronger boundaries now with your social media use. How is it being online as someone who is fairly visible, just as far as it’s a lot of feedback at times? I think you and I are both going through this process of, like, we’ve been online for a little while. And have realized that it’s kind of nice to shut off the feedback.

Virginia

I get so much feedback.

Amy

So how is that going?

Virginia

So I took a three week Instagram break over the holidays, and it was totally on a whim. Like, we were just texting—Amy’s really working on her boundaries, too. And she was like, “I’m not going to Instagram this weekend!” And I was like, fuck it. I’m just going to delete the app for winter break. Why not? Like, it’s fine. I’ll just download it again when I need it. And it was so much better for my brain. I hadn’t even realized how much I needed that break.

And then I re-downloaded it. I was like, well, I’m getting back to work, and I have to promote the newsletter. I’ve got to get back on there. And the first DM I saw was from a man who had sent me this hateful message in December describing my body and the reasons I was wrong and how he was mad at vegans, but also me. Then the second DM that he’d sent two weeks later was, “What’s your number?”

And I was like, Okay, I think I’m done again. I didn’t respond to your troll message, so therefore I want to go out with you?

So there is a lot of feedback. And you develop a thick skin and you can laugh about it. And, like, I’ve made reels making fun of the funny comments. But stepping away from it completely, I was like, oh, that is this part of my brain that I don’t need to be giving to that anymore. So, I mean, it’s hard, because it is our job. We make words on the Internet, so somehow we have to do that with the Internet. But I think especially right now with what’s happening with Meta and Zuckerberg doing what he’s doing, I’m feeling less need to participate. So, yeah, I’m experimenting with more boundaries.

Amy

Does it seem like it impacts your newsletter audience at all?

Virginia

Are we now having a business meeting?

Amy

I’m curious about the engagement on Burnt Toast itself.

Virginia

No, I mean, the great thing about Burnt Toast is it’s my beautiful safe space. We have amazing conversations, and everyone is smart and lovely, and even when people are critical, it’s couched in this like, well, like, you know, I just want to give some feedback. And everyone is so kind about it, and often right. That’s great. So I think finding those places, and just being more judicious with how we want to use the Internet, I think makes a lot of sense.

Amy

What makes a meal satisfying for you?

Virginia

Cheese?

I mean, any cheese. Parmesan. I’m just like, if there’s not cheese, what did we come here to do? That’s all.

Amy

I’m not going to name who this was, but we were having a conversation about a cookbook that sold a bajillion copies recently, and we were talking about whether this person speaks about food in a way that is has diet culture in it. And I was like, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that, but apparently in the book, there is some. And I was wondering if you could recommend some food resources for recipes or just like food ideas in general, where we’re not going to run into that.

Virginia

Um, Dinnertime SOS by Amy Palanjian. 100% diet culture free. Also Yummy Toddler Food. I mean, you’re at the top of the list, obviously.

Just to brag about my best friend, Amy is working in this niche of kid food blogging, which is incredibly diet-y, incredibly rigid. There are so many expectations of perfection. And you have been systematically pushing against that, and in the nicest Amy way. The nicest way, but always like, no, we’re not going to do that. We’re going to very gently push back. I really admire it because you’re swimming in some shark infested waters.

Other food people, I mean, we have shout out Julia Turshen, who is also a recovered diet-y person who has really brought a different perspective into her work and her food is all amazing. I think you guys are kind of my two go-tos because you’re always safe.

Amy

I took one of Julia’s classes—she does a live cooking class every Sunday, and I took it last week. And it was like, I could have made the recipes without her, but there was something about being there and she was, I mean, she’s like, legitimately talking to the people in the class. And I was like, oh, I sort of forgot how nice it is. We made a roasted chicken with a really simple gravy, which is not remotely something I have ever made. And it was so simple. And I was like, I could just make this for myself. It was chicken on a pile of onions with broth, and then the gravy had a whole thing of sour cream in it.

Virginia

There is the dairy.

Amy

It was amazing. I would say, that is a really great gift to give. If you’re like, I don’t know if someone likes food and you’re not sure, it’s a great gift. Because you can choose from her back catalog or live classes. I cook all the time and it was just so nice to have someone be like, just do this and it will turn out really well.

Virginia

Should we go to audience questions?

Audience

So last year my daughter got a note passed to her in class—and she knows exactly who wrote it—that said you’re fat and ugly.

Virginia

Oh my god.

Audience

And I was like, oh, we’re still doing this shit? This is still what’s happening in middle school? Because middle school sucks, and I guess always gonna suck. I really had you in my ear, right? Of like, how to talk about that language, which is clearly intended to be hateful. And then there’s a knee jerk reaction, I think, to be like, oh, it’s not true. That’s not what it’s about. I was good at that part, but I’m sure I still bungled it. I wanted tohear what you as moms of middle school girls, how you handle when that happens. Because it just feels so shitty.

Virginia

I mean, it’s so shitty. I’m so sorry that happened. It makes me really rage-y when I do hear about it. I hear it all the time from readers. And I think the instinct we all have, is to correct it and be like, “you’re not fat, you’re beautiful.” But we don’t want to do that, because that puts fatness in opposition to beauty. And instead, you want to talk about why that shouldn’t be an insult that gets weaponized. But I think the first thing you have to do is just really sit with how much it sucks for them that that happened, because that’s where they are. They just got attacked. And this sucks. You can have the more philosophical conversation about it, but you just have to sit with like it is really terrible that people use bodies against us. This is really terrible.

What would you add?

Amy

I would add, outside of that immediate situation, in my life, there have been kids in my car who have said fat in a negative way. And I just am like, “We don’t use fat that way. It just means you’re big or you’re small, you’re tall, or you’re thin and you’re fat.” And sort of normalizing using the word as a descriptor that is not negative, it just is, can sort of help so that when those the attacks happen, then at least in the back of their mind, they’re like, “Fat is not a bad thing.” And this person is a jerk. It’s not perfect, but I think that that helps a little bit.

Audience

What would you tell someone like me, who doesn’t have kids yet, but is thinking about it. Because when you’re in your 30’s every other day someone tells you they’re pregnant. Like, maybe I should eventually consider that! You think about it a new way. And as someone who is still working through their own body image diet culture issues, and how to parent kids and bring a human into the world, especially with the Ozempic of it all. What do you wish you knew before?

Virginia

I mean, I think the bottom line is, everyone is going to show up to parenthood screwed up on this. There’s no “let me get this fixed before I have a kid.” Your reproductive options would run out before you could finish that work. This is the work of all of our lives.

So I think it’s just having a lot of grace for the fact that what’s wild about parenting around this issue is that it will bring up all of your own stuff. It will bring up stuff that your mom said to you when you were nine, or that your middle school bullies said, or you’ll be comparing your body to someone else’s body after they had a baby. It just will bring up all of that.

So I think instead of trying to get out in front of it and be like, “I can handle it,” it’s like, well, what support am I going to need to have in place who in my life can I talk to when I hit these moments? Who can I text? Who’s a safe person to share this with, whether it’s therapy or friends who are on the same page. Who’s going to be your support system? Because it’s not an if it’s a when you will be navigating it.

Then I also think—I hear this from a lot of parents, and this was true for me—that it can be a really healing piece of it. Because you do have a chance to do things differently with your kid. Like Amy and I talk all the time about seeing our kids have a vocabulary for talking about fatphobia, for knowing fat is not a bad word, that that’s automatic to them now. Like, we didn’t have that. We know that. And it’s not that they’re not going to struggle—they are. But we have been able to build this different foundation.

So when those things come up, my seven year old will come home and be, like, the teacher said this crazy thing. And it’s not landing. It’s not hurting her, because she’s like, like, what? Why? She’s recognizing it. And so that’s really satisfying to see.

Also, you totally don’t have to have kids.

[Every mother in the room passionately agrees.]

Amy

One other thing I would say is that one of the things I didn’t know that I learned as I went was there is this whole way to talk about food that has nothing to do with health necessarily, vitamins, minerals, proteins. You can talk about the way it tastes, you can talk the way that it feels, you can talk about the color. There’s all of this descriptive language around the experience of eating.

When I first started doing my brand, I didn’t quite know how to do that. And it took me some time to be like, if I just actually focus on making this taste really good, the byproduct is that we’re going to be more likely—not guaranteed—to eat it. And that is a different way of eating and relating to food. And I think especially with kids, you’re not going to have a lot of success if you try to persuade a three year old to eat something because it is good for them. But if it tastes good, or if it’s funny, or if there’s some other thing, it’s just a much more enjoyable experience.

It’s just feels very different. Then one other thing I was going to say, once kids have vocabulary, like my middle schooler sent me an email and was like, “I need you to get me out of this health assignment.” It was a calorie counting assignment where they had to make a meal plan. And she’s like, I don’t want to do this.

The fact that she knew and she asked for help. And then, I wrote this long email, of course, to everyone. And there was like, a one word answer that was like, fine. I mean, like, literally nobody cared. I just was like, can she do the assignment without the numbers? Can she just make a meal plan? Of course, I was like, what if we think about whether it’s enough? And they were like, No. But it’s like, there can be all of these different things that come up that are actually enjoyable. Just because there’s a lot that could potentially be stressful. There’s also a lot on the other side.

Audience

I’m excited about the YA situation, and I would like to discuss that, because I also think there is an appetite, maybe, for you to discuss your situation of what you were in middle school and how that has changed into your adult life and the trajectory.

Virginia

What I was in middle school?

Audience

Smaller.

Virginia

Oh yeah, thin.

Audience

Only because I listened to all these stories, and I’ve always been in this body, and so I did get the “you’re ugly and fat.” I’m like, girl, no. So I think there’s an arc to be discussed, right? Like, what does it look like when you are thin, and what can you do as a thin person to advocate? And then now your body has changed, because that’s what bodies do.

So is there that discussion in the YA version? Is there a potential for that?

Virginia

I think the reason it’s so important to me that—and I may even change the title, if you really think that thin kids wouldn’t buy a book called Fat Talk, which I’m still not—

Audience

They might not read it in public, right?

Virginia

I’m still figuring out how to handle that piece. But it’s so important to me that thin kids read this book, because not every thin kid is going to be a thin adult. I mean, even if they were going to be a thin adult, they don’t need to be an asshole about it. We need to raise thin kids to be good advocates and allies.

And it’s always tricky because the trauma that fat kids experience within their bodies from the world is worse objectively, it’s terrible. But what happens with thin kids, what happened to me, is that you’re told your thinness is this superpower and it’s this thing you should hold onto at all costs. And you see the way fat people are being treated. You see, you know, that your dad doesn’t let himself eat donuts. You see all of that, and you’re like, oh, it doesn’t apply to me. I don’t have to follow those rules. I can eat the cookies because I’m thin, but if I stop being thin, can I still eat the cookies?

And what we need thin kids to understand is: Your bodies are going to change. You’re in puberty. That’s what is supposed to be happening. This is a good thing. And you don’t have to diet to fight it. You don’t have to be set up to try to get back to this previous version of you. It’s all still you. So I think it’s really important to get that message in there—and maybe that’s the message we all need, right? Like, all of our bodies are changing, and that’s what bodies do.

So yes, I’m thinking a lot about how to get that in the book, but we’ll see. Stay tuned. And I’m open to title ideas!

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Ep 162 -The Open Nesters (Tessa + Amir)