#AmWriting Ep 474: How to Make a Big Move When You’re Stuck in the Muddy Middle
In this Write Big Session, Jennie and KJ dive into what it really means to “write big” when you’re deep in the messy middle of a novel. KJ shares how she’s tackling her new book by working backward from the ending—mapping out the emotional and plot arcs for each character to keep herself focused and out of the coffee-chat scenes she loves to write. Jennie cheers her on, unpacking how this kind of clarity, self-awareness, and trust in the reader is what turns a good book into a great one.
TRANSCRIPT BELOW!
THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS PODCAST
* KJ’s Review of The Correspondent
SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE
Hey, this is Jennie Nash, and I wanted to invite you to check out my Substack newsletter, The Art & Business of Book Coaching. It’s totally free unless you choose to support me, and it’s secretly really great for writers. The reason is that book coaches are in the business of helping writers do their best work. So I’m always talking about writer mindset and things like helping a writer find their structure or find an agent or find their position in the marketplace. If you’re considering investing in having somebody help you, it’s a great way to get prepared to know who you might want to pick and what you might want to ask of them. You’ll get an inside peek at the way that the people who are in the business of helping writers think about writers, and so in that way, it can help you become a better writer just by tuning in. I have a lot of writers following me over there, so if you’re interested, come check it out you can find it at substack.com/@JennieNash. That’s substack.com/@JennieNash, and it’s J-E-N-N-I-E.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Jennie Nash
Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. This is a Write Big Session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters. Today I’m talking to KJ, and we’re going to be doing recurring episodes where we talk about her efforts to play big and write big in her new novel. Hi, KJ.
KJ Dell’Antonia
Hi! This is going to be so fun. Okay, so I’ll tell you what—yeah, I’ll tell you what I’ve been working on. What I’m thinking—like, my theory here is sort of avoid the muddly middle by writing the end, or kind of outlining to the end. So I have about 30,000 words. I’ve really established things. The main events have really started to happen, and I know kind of where they’re going, but I kind of hit a point where I wasn’t sure, like, what should happen next, in what order. And I know myself—I am very prone, at this point, to just flaking off into people having coffee and talking.
Jennie Nash
Yes, you are! You are really good at that.
KJ Dell’Antonia
Exactly. And they would be very entertaining and enjoyable scenes of people having coffee and—or doing whatever. But there is—I mean, I have five point-of-view characters, one main one, but—and all of them have lots of stuff going on in their lives, some of which has to do with this, and some of which doesn’t. Well, all of it does, but you don’t—it’s not all the core, either the core emotional plot or the core actual plot. So what I did was to start sketching out the stuff that happens next, and then I kind of have jumped ahead, and what I’m working on now—and I’d love your sort of feedback on this as an idea—is I wrote out, like, okay, here’s the emotional end for each of these characters. Here’s where they need to end up, and then here’s the plot end for each of these characters in, like, the happy ending, if there was an epilogue—which this is not really that kind of book kind of way—just so I know, like, this is where… And now I am focused on, okay, what should, like, the last scene of this be? I know what happens, but I’m trying to figure out, like, what would be the—what would be the last thing? And I may get this in the wrong order, but anyway, that’s where I am, and I’m going to build those backwards until I catch up to my middle, and I’m thinking that will keep me—keep my eye on the ball. What do you think?
Jennie Nash
Well, I could not love this more for you. I really couldn’t, because I know what you’re trying to do, and I feel like you’re doing it, and we’re getting at this idea of what does it mean to write big, and you’re trying to solve for something that you just identified for us—that you have it, you tend to fall into—and you’re trying to not do that. And you’re trying to write a bigger, better book because of it, and it’s so interesting because it’s a super nuanced thing you’re talking about, but it’s also where the difference—that’s how you get from good to great—and you’re trying to get to great. So I just love this so much. And what I hear is that you’ve outlined this book, which I know is hard for you, and now you’re kind of using that outline to scaffold yourself to write an emotionally satisfying story. So I just—I love it as a tactic for writing big.
KJ Dell’Antonia
Because even if I go back to that outline, like, there are some things happening in these people’s personal lives that are deeply important to them—and, I think, important to the reader—but not in the sense that I need pages and pages of either discussion or introspection about them. It’s more that those are—that they really need to stay back, not background exactly, but in this intense moment of these people’s lives, those things are still in their heads. Like, they’re still going, you know, Wait, what just happened means that I am never going to get a resolution to this thing that I’m deeply worried about—but also I have to deal with this, with this death and this crisis. And so I was thinking that doing this would keep me focused on the emotionality of the crisis.
Jennie Nash
Yeah, because you’re really good at plot. You’re really good at plot, and the other component that—underlying what is—the emotion of this person is something you’ve had to work harder at. And what I love about that is that this is how you get really fully fleshed-out characters. Because, like, I have a friend who is going through a heartbreak, and every single thing she does right now is done through the lens of that heartbreak. So even if she says, “Hey, do you want to go on a whale-watching trip out to the islands this weekend?” it’s not just about let’s go on a whale-watching trip, right? It’s about—
KJ Dell’Antonia
Right.
Jennie Nash
But she’s not going to say that when she asks me to go on the whale-watching trip. She’s not going to say, “Because, you know, I’m lonely and sad,” you know? So what you’re doing is giving your characters these rich lives. But that’s not the story.
KJ Dell’Antonia
And also, I think it will help me to trust the readers—to pay attention to what matters about the rich lives. So, you know, to trust the reader to keep in their head that if someone has a passing, fleeting thought about one of those emotional—you know, one of those pieces of emotional background—that they will still either be wondering about it, if I haven’t revealed it yet, or, you know, recognize it for what it is. And I suspect that I’m going to forget some of them. As I go back through my outline, I’m like, Oh yeah, totally forgot she had this particular problem, and this is how this is going to be resolved. And that may mean that some of them don’t stay, although I think they will. I think it just means that I got—that, you know, ninety thousand words’ worth of story is a lot to keep in your head.
Jennie Nash
So when you sit down to write, how are you doing it differently? I mean, we know that you’re very good at productivity—doing the stickers, sitting down, doing the work—but how are you making yourself think in this different way this time?
KJ Dell’Antonia
I am not drafting. I am staring. And I have two—oh, I have a Google Doc of about forty-six files at this point. Then—actually, no, I think it’s twenty-eight. So I have an outline that you are sometimes looking at, which has everything that I’ve written so far, and then a chunk of things that I know are coming up, where I could write those pretty quickly. The problem is… I would hit a wall at the end of them. So I want to come back and make sure that they’re what I want to—or at least what I think I want to—write. So I’m going into a sort of a secondary outline, and I’m writing things like—because a lot of what’s happening now is also that I am figuring out things that are happening now in the story that the reader won’t know till the end, because a lot of people did a lot of stuff—
Jennie Nash
Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
—in this twenty-four-hour period, and some of it you may never know, but I need to know how and why—
Jennie Nash
Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
…they did those things. So I’m kind of writing like, “What if he did this?” and, “Oh, you know, but—but wait, why? Why would he show up there at this moment?” and, like, resolving that and kind of coming up with all of that, even though that isn’t going to go in those pages. So I did—I worked on that this morning, and then I worked on—I wrote out the emotional ends for everyone. And now I’m just trying to—I’m thinking what I’ll kind of do is I’ll plot-outline backwards, and then I’ll emotion-outline backwards-forwards from there.
Jennie Nash
Yeah. Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
No, no—well, backwards, I think, maybe because I know where they’re going to end. I don’t know whether—or I’ll sketch, I’ll sketch in the emotional bit. So what you—when you were looking at this, you could see that there’s a section of about seven lines that are pure plot.
Jennie Nash
Yeah. Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
Because… that’s just me. I think, at this point, because this is a thriller and it’s complicated, I need to figure out—and then you and I—we had this great moment where, in one of those, I was like, I don’t know whose point of view the scene was from, and you said something very useful to me, which is, “Whose story would seeing this affect most?” And I knew—and I immediately knew the answer to that. So—
Jennie Nash
I… I thought that you might.
KJ Dell’Antonia
That was a great way to deal with that.
Jennie Nash
Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
Yeah. I thought that you might. So I know we’re talking vaguely, but it’s this idea that when you have something that happens in the story, and there’s choices about what is the result of that action in the story—that different things could happen, different people could show up, different things could be said, different, you know, directions could go from this plot point. And right—the quest—you were saying, I’m not sure who’s going to be part of this action?
Jennie Nash
Who’s going to find it?
KJ Dell’Antonia
Right?
Jennie Nash
Yeah, who’s going to find this one character having this—I don’t—I know—I don’t want it to be from that character’s point of view. Somebody needs to come upon a character, you know, who’s just made a really crushing emotional discovery. And the question of who would—seeing that—whose emotional story would that alter the most? Because the plot at that point is going to be rolling. Like, I almost don’t have just the facts of what’s happening here; like, the plots are basically almost a one-line thing. So, like, the plot goes… yeah…
Jennie Nash
That’s what we’re getting at here. This is what it means to write big—it’s what you’re thinking about. We know what the plot is. It’s really quite simple. I mean, it’s straightforward, I should say—how you present it is not simple. And the emotional part—that’s what’s going to give us the emotional punch—is not simple. And so the decisions about every—at every plot point—what’s going to give the most emotional resonance here—that’s what writing big is. And you said something that I want to point back to, which is, you’re holding all of this in your head. I have always said that I think the primary skill of a really skillful novelist is holding multiple things in their head at one time, right?
KJ Dell’Antonia
It’s all in there. It’s like a big—it’s like a big sack of Jell-O.
Jennie Nash
Yeah? But the ability to—I mean, it’s funny you use that metaphor—but it’s more, it’s more like, I think of it as threads. And you’re like, “Okay, got this thread, and I got this thread, I’m holding these threads, and I’m weaving them together, and I have a grasp of all the threads.” That’s what you’re doing, and it’s that—it’s that skill. You have to have self-awareness, you have to have story awareness, you have to have confidence and authority—like, there are so many things that you have to have to pull that off, and I see that that’s what you’re trying to do here. And it’s so cool to watch. I love it.
KJ Dell’Antonia
And I don’t feel like I have those things. And I do think, you know, as I’m thinking about listeners out there going, I don’t have those things, I mean, I get that. I don’t feel like I have them either. I think when we, as readers, are also seeing ourselves as a writer, like, a really common thing that we think as a reader is, Oh, I know how a story works because I’ve read so many of them. And then I personally had to learn from Jennie quite a few years ago now that that did not actually teach me how to do this—structure the spot—but the holding the whole mess in your head, I think that may be what you get from a lifetime of reading—is this ability to have a big, loose grasp and, you know, keep enough notes to know that you’ve put a—you know, a pin in some section to come back to it, and that kind of thing. I feel like that might be the thing that we do have within us.
Jennie Nash
Absolutely. I’m looking—I’m trying to find—I just started reading a book based on your recommendation, and I can’t, I can’t find it, but you’re going to know what it is. It’s the novel in letters, the—uh…
KJ Dell’Antonia
Oh, The Correspondent.
Jennie Nash
The Correspondent, thank you. I mean, I—
KJ Dell’Antonia
That’s a first novel, but from a very adult human being. You know, it’s not a first-first novel by a twenty-two-year-old. It’s a first novel from probably somebody who’s probably written a few.
Jennie Nash
But the reason that I—well, I always love the way that you talk about books. Your sense as a reader, I just really appreciate. But you said something about it—that this book really trusts the reader to fill in the blanks, to figure out what’s happening. They’re not spoon-feeding you. And you mentioned how that felt unusual these days. And I thought, Oh, I want that experience as a reader. And also, I love that experience as a person who studies how books are made, and that trying to build that experience for the reader—that’s what you’re trying to do. By holding all those things in your head and deciding how and when to share them, or whose hands to put them in in a particular scene, or that sort of thing—that’s how you build that. And it’s hard. It’s really hard. So I applaud you for—you’re in there, it’s messy, you’re doing it, you’re doing it. It’s so exciting.
KJ Dell’Antonia
And one of the other things that we’ve talked about is how, like, every time many of us write, we’re trying to write bigger. Like, this—it’s not an insult to our past work; it’s just we’re trying to do bigger and do more. And so I’m thinking about—so when I was writing my earliest books, I remember that one of the things I was focusing on in books that I was reading was how people began things, and where, you know, where the turning points were—kind of where the Save the Cat!, moments were, absolutely, in terms of… but not just where those were, but sort of how they were done—like how people regret, and how they demonstrated who the protagonists were. And then I remember moving on to a question of how little does someone put in a book about a secondary character, or someone who really mattered to the protagonist’s life, that tells me what I need to know as a reader but doesn’t take up a lot of pages.
Jennie Nash
Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
And I would literally go in and count—like, okay, how many times did we see this mother that I fully understand how important they were to the protagonist? And it’ll be, like, twice and a couple of references. So I remember doing that. And now I feel like what I’m really paying attention to is how little does a book that I really enjoy—the process of sort of working my way through—how little does it give people, and how much does it demand that you figure out?
Jennie Nash
Yeah.
KJ Dell’Antonia
How little information are you given so that you can do—because that’s the good work of a reader. Sometimes you don’t want to do that, you know? Sometimes you kind of want it all served up, or you kind of want something where the tropes are simple enough that you can—but sometimes you really want something where you have to do some figuring out. And it doesn’t—The Correspondent is not a thriller.
Jennie Nash
Right.
KJ Dell’Antonia
But you really have to figure out, like, who is this person, and why do they do this, and why are they able to do this, and why—how are they making mistakes by doing—and by “do this,” I mean, she’s a letter writer. She’s the correspondent. She writes letters instead of, as it turns out, really, instead of talking to people. But it’s really good, so I do recommend it.
Jennie Nash
So I like to end these short episodes with a reflection that the listener can do, or something that they can take away to think about based on what we’ve talked about. Is there something that comes to your mind that you would recommend?
KJ Dell’Antonia
Well, it’s a little dependent on where you are in your manuscript, but I think—so what I’m really going to recommend is, come at what you’re doing from a different angle within the book. Start from something you know happens, and either work backwards up to it or forwards or backwards from it, instead of working chronologically—not necessarily in terms of drafting, but just in terms of figuring out what are the very most important things that have to show up on the page.
Jennie Nash
I love that. Well, until next time, for everyone listening—stop playing small and write like it matters.
Narrator
The Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.
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