A leading authority on submarine espionage and the author of a book on the subject, Christopher Drew, engages in a discussion with Jeff Stein. They cover various intriguing topics like hair-raising espionage missions, challenges in tracking submarines, revealing Russian moles, the role of submarines in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, rebuilding the Russian Navy's nuclear submarine arsenal, and uncovering Bin Laden's plans and myths through the Bin Laden papers.
Submarines have played a crucial role in intelligence gathering during the Cold War and continue to track Russian and Chinese submarines today.
The recently declassified Bin Laden Papers challenge assumptions about Osama bin Laden's control over Al Qaeda and highlight the significant roles played by women in his circle.
Deep dives
Role of Submarines in Espionage and Warfare
Submarines have long fascinated people due to their hidden nature and the risks involved for the crew. Submarines played a crucial role in intelligence gathering during the Cold War, with special projects involving tapping Soviet cables and retrieving missile parts. They continue to have important roles today, particularly in tracking Russian and Chinese submarines. Submarines aim to monitor and potentially neutralize the threat of nuclear missiles by closely following these submarines. While technological advancements have made submarines safer, they still face challenges such as collisions and limited access in crowded areas. Despite their historical significance, submarines face limitations in their current role in the conflict over Ukraine, where maneuvering within the Black Sea poses challenges in terms of approval and visibility. Submarines remain an essential part of intelligence gathering and counter-threat measures in the face of evolving global tensions.
Insights from the Bin Laden Papers
The recently declassified Bin Laden Papers provide insights into Osama bin Laden's mindset and reveal important details about his role in planning the 9/11 attacks. Contrary to previous assumptions, it was bin Laden himself, not another individual, who conceived the idea of using planes as weapons based on an incident in 1999. The papers also shed light on bin Laden's meticulous planning for attacks against the United States. They challenge the narrative that bin Laden had full control over Al Qaeda, showing that the organization was fragmented and often acted independently, causing headaches for Al Qaeda's leadership. The papers further reveal the significant roles played by women in bin Laden's circle, including his daughters who helped author his public statements. Additionally, the papers raise questions about the true identity of the courier who led the CIA to bin Laden's hideout, suggesting that other factors may have contributed to their success in finding him.
Challenges and Successes of Western Intelligence
The Bin Laden Papers highlight the challenges faced by Western intelligence agencies in understanding the true capabilities of Al Qaeda and accurately assessing bin Laden's influence. The papers show that bin Laden's communications were highly secretive, making it difficult for intelligence agencies to gather real-time information or penetrate his inner circle. While successes were achieved in certain areas, such as tracking Al Qaeda activities in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas in Pakistan, the fragmentation and independence of various Jihad groups made it challenging for intelligence agencies to fully grasp the dynamics of Al Qaeda's operations. Western intelligence may have overestimated bin Laden's influence over these groups and wrongly attributed attacks to him. A key question that remains is the extent to which the recovered papers were deleted and later recovered by intelligence agencies, which could shed further light on bin Laden's decision-making process and those who aided him.
Conclusion
The podcast episode delves into the intriguing world of submarines, exploring their historical and contemporary role in espionage and warfare. It also delves into the insights from the declassified Bin Laden Papers, uncovering new information about his involvement in planning the 9/11 attacks and the dynamics of Al Qaeda. The podcast highlights the challenges faced by Western intelligence in understanding and assessing the true capabilities of Al Qaeda and reveals the important roles played by women in bin Laden's circle. Overall, the podcast provides a captivating exploration of these topics, shedding light on previously unknown aspects and raising further questions for intelligence agencies to ponder.
Christopher Drew, author of the definitive book on submarine espionage past and present, talks with Jeff Stein. And we dig into the new bestseller The Bin Laden Papers with author and New America Senior Fellow Nelly Lahoud.